Pak-Sino relations and its impact on Pakistans reputation in the Muslim world

[MastanKhan]

Kardesim (brother), I understand your reservations about Pak China relationship. If you put your feet in pakistani shoes, things will get clearer. Pakistan is under existential threat of 7x larger eternal enemy neighbor whose Prime Minister's and ruling parties sole achievement is that they have the demonstrated ability to kill Muslims in manners which will put Cengis into shame. By the by Indian Muslims are the most submissive people in the world. If you replace them with hot blooded ones like Turks (Paks in this case) the outcome is beyond imagination. The more notorious the intention and ability to kill the higher the rating. That neighbor is nuclear armed too. To merely survive Pak needs the level of military capabilities not readily available. China is the primary source at an affordable cost for China and India are also dead enemies. The help China provides to Pak can be termed as God send. I am pretty sure Pak chief sleeps with one eye open and one finger on the nuclear button !?!1

Hi,

Thank you for your post---people don't really understand Pak-china relationship. It actually is as deep rooted as the U S Israel relationship----.

It has had its ups and downs---downs because pakistan did not heed to china's advice over certain issues---and ups----china being cornered in the south china seas by Japan---taiwan---vietnam---Philipines---India---and the USA---and not too many escape routes----the mongolia / turkmenistan / russia is closed most parts of winter and difficult to cross----and basically the only part left is thru Karakorum Hwy thru pakistan to the arabian seas.

Pakistanis do care about the arabs and the rest of the muslim world----but not at the expense of the chinese.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

The title says it all. It's a matter of fact: the overwhelming majority of Muslims worldwide do not sympathize with China. The country, the culture, the language, its traditions, its foreign and domestic policy - simply everything that is related to Chinese state or its society is unpopular.

What are the reasons behind this rejection?

Main reason for this negative attitude towards China lies in the fact that the Chinese one-party government suppresses innocent Muslims. Everybody recognises that the ethnic Uygurs in East Turkestan are still being persecuted.

From Balkan and Anatolia to Central Asia, the Turkic people don't tolerate Chinese. Even if the political elites of the Turkic states negotiate with China, the common people whether Shiite or Sunni do not like the Chinese nation. It would be quite mistaken to believe that this view of China is a "Turkish thing".

The majority of Sunni Arabs share the same opinion. China acts as a supporter of Russia and Assad. In the eyes of the Sunni Arabs, the Syrian crisis is to a large extent the co-responsibility of Russia's and Chinas's irresponsible and crazy Middle East policies.

Not only Arabs and Turks have their problems with the Chinese. Chinese ships violating the maritime sovereignty of Malaysia. Muslim majority countries in Southeast Asia like Indonesia and Brunei also criticize China’s claim on South China Sea.

The only Muslim state that currently has a very good relationship with China is Pakistan. What consequences will this have for the reputation of Pakistan in the Muslim world? The Indian government under Modi is not as stupid as we always believe. They will try to use these different positions for their own goals. It's just a matter of time before India on the one side and Turkey, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia on the other side begin to cooperate.

The United Arab Emirates have already begun closer cooperation with India.

What you guys think about this topic?

(Sorry for my bad English)

Stop living in your delusional world boy!

Muslim world is perhaps the most divided sub-section of communities around the world.

Different muslim sects and leaders are more than willing to come and take each other's life.

Also, most of your statements stem from your pan-Turkic delusions.

For example:

No one really cares much about Uygurs. And Arabs, Indonesians, and Iranians have very good relations with China, which no sign of ebbing.

Not only this, perhaps if you were so interested in Muslim unity, you might start by giving two groups: Armenians, and Kurds, their statehood and recognition, who are far more worthy of the same compared to Uygurs.

 

[sparten]

How will Pakistan react when the Chinese say one day: we do not want you to talk to the Indonesians, Turks, Arabs, etc.? Believe me, that will happen.

We have had good relations with the Americans when they and the Chinese were enemies, not trade partners.

Pakistan is big and powerful enough to maintain relations with countries on our terms. And the Chinese know that.

 

[FullMetalJacket]

Kardesim (brother), I understand your reservations about Pak China relationship. If you put your feet in pakistani shoes, things will get clearer. Pakistan is under existential threat of 7x larger eternal enemy neighbor whose Prime Minister's and ruling parties sole achievement is that they have the demonstrated ability to kill Muslims in manners which will put Cengis into shame. By the by Indian Muslims are the most submissive people in the world. If you replace them with hot blooded ones like Turks (Paks in this case) the outcome is beyond imagination. The more notorious the intention and ability to kill the higher the rating. That neighbor is nuclear armed too. To merely survive Pak needs the level of military capabilities not readily available. China is the primary source at an affordable cost for China and India are also dead enemies. The help China provides to Pak can be termed as God send. I am pretty sure Pak chief sleeps with one eye open and one finger on the nuclear button !?!1

Yes, we Indians(hindus) are the largest contributor in killing muslims. In fact if you were to take a closer look at the statistics, the sectarian killings India of muslims far outweights all the sectarian violence that occurs in the middle east AND pakistan. I'm sure of it, you just need to look deeper. Once you wake up out of your dream, little turk. We can both discuss realities. We are surrounded by islamofacists that continously threaten us with nukes and we have their communist rat masters to contend with who happens to be the major bully in south china sea. I know you muslims enjoy taking sides with other muslims, and we indians being pagans after all, but learn to view matters from both perspectives, instead of being a complete imbecile.

 

[wiseone2]

Well, considering that all of the Muslim countries you mentioned except Pakistan have recognized israel and established cordial relations with it in one form or another i don't think the people or governments of those countries are in any position to criticize Pakistan's strong relations with China.

Pakistan does not recognize israel in order to appease Arabs, Pakistan does not recognize Armenia in order to appease Turks, but Turks and Arabs not only recognize india but also have economic relations with that country.

Pakistan ruined its relations with Iran for the sake of Saudis and other GCC countries and this has harmed our economy for decades and incited sectarian divide within our society, why should we care what the Muslim world now thinks of China? Should we antagonize our only friendly neighbor for the sake of a hypocritical brotherhood?

Considering that Muslim brother countries can backstab each other the way Turkey and Arabs have been doing with fellow Muslim countries like Gaddafi's Libya and Assad's Syria, why should Pakistan put its trust in such backstabbing countries?

UAE's government was ready to trash us as soon as we refused to get involved in their failed war in Yemen and they began to cozy up with our enemy india. This is so called Muslim brother hood.

@Psychic @Samandri @Shamain @Akheilos @p(-)0ENiX

Out of curiosity did the Arabs ask Pakistan not to recognize Israel ? Even your patron saint China has diplomatic relations with Israel.

Hi,
Again B.S.
instead we hosted 3 mn ungrateful Afghanis ever since protected their sorry bum from Soviet invasion and when our ancestor went to seek help from Afghanis during british era, we were not only refused but forced out

Don't tell me the Pakistani military did not make money out of the Afghan war - billions of dollars from America, Saudi Arabia. Most of the money meant for the refugees were siphoned off.

Pakistan doesn't recognize Armenia:

"Pakistan is the only country that does not recognize Armenia." Armenia–Pakistan relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is silly and petty not to recognize Armenia and Israel

 

[salarsikander]

Out of curiosity did the Arabs ask Pakistan not to recognize Israel ? Even your patron saint China has diplomatic relations with Israel.



Don't tell me the Pakistani military did not make money out of the Afghan war - billions of dollars from America, Saudi Arabia. Most of the money meant for the refugees were siphoned off.



It is silly and petty not to recognize Armenia and Israel

Hi,

Prove it or it never occurred!

 

[LowPost]

Like all grown ups you have your own friend circles who may not be at the best of terms with each other. Pakistan has special relations with China, which has been helping her to survive in a tough neighborhood of eternal enemies, whose redemption lies on her elimination. It is that serious. As Turks we need to understand this. Pak China special friendship may open new avenues for us too! A couple of years back we had a joint exercise with China. This is diplomacy and geo politics people have been playing for thousands of years.

I'm glad you're one of the few Turkish members on PDF besides @Lure whose view on China isn't clouded by blind belief in pan-Turkism.

Personally I haven't got anything against friendship between Pakistan and Turkey, for geopolitics is a very complex matter and it's not all about loving or hating a particular nation. But, as I have already said once, Pakistan and China are connected by a metal stronger than Valyrian steel and not even the situation in Xinjiang can dent it. Furthermore China enjoys strong ties with the Arab world (@Saif al-Arab can attest to this), Iran, Malaysia, Indonesia, Bangladesh and the Muslim-majority Central Asian states.

Regarding the Uyghur issue pointed out several times in the thread already, here's a piece of advice to our Pakistani friends: Don't let yourself be tricked by paranoid Western MSM and separatist proxies, such as WUC. Speaking of which this organisation doesn't speak for the interests of the Uyghur people, but it is a malicious fifth column employed by Turkish nationalists and neocons and funded by National Endowment of Democracy, the same NGO that is responsible for supporting revolutions of colour throughout the world, thus trying to wreak havoc in countries the US sees as an adversary.

Last but not least, before anyone accuses the CPC of enforcing Han supremacist policies in Xinjiang I recommend them to read this thread by @Wholegrain about the history of demographics in the province first:

The Truth about Uyghur demographics and Han immigration in Xinjiang

Stop living in your delusional world boy!

Muslim world is perhaps the most divided sub-section of communities around the world.

Different muslim sects and leaders are more than willing to come and take each other's life.

Also, most of your statements stem from your pan-Turkic delusions.

For example:

No one really cares much about Uygurs. And Arabs, Indonesians, and Iranians have very good relations with China, which no sign of ebbing.

Not only this, perhaps if you were so interested in Muslim unity, you might start by giving two groups: Armenians, and Kurds, their statehood and recognition, who are far more worthy of the same compared to Uygurs.

Absolutely right. @AndrewJin

 

[Lure]

I'm glad you're one of the few Turkish members on PDF besides @Lure whose view on China isn't clouded by blind belief in pan-Turkism.

Personally I haven't got anything against friendship between Pakistan and Turkey, for geopolitics is a very complex matter and it's not all about loving or hating a particular nation. But, as I have already said once, Pakistan and China are connected by a metal stronger than Valyrian steel and not even the situation in Xinjiang can dent it. Furthermore China enjoys strong ties with the Arab world (@Saif al-Arab can attest to this), Iran, Malaysia, Indonesia, Bangladesh and the Muslim-majority Central Asian states.

Regarding the Uyghur issue pointed out several times in the thread already, here's a piece of advice to our Pakistani friends: Don't let yourself be tricked by paranoid Western MSM and separatist proxies, such as WUC. Speaking of which this organisation doesn't speak for the interests of the Uyghur people, but it is a malicious fifth column employed by Turkish nationalists and neocons and funded by National Endowment of Democracy, the same NGO that is responsible for supporting revolutions of colour throughout the world, thus trying to wreak havoc in countries the US sees as an adversary.

Last but not least, before anyone accuses the CPC of enforcing Han supremacist policies in Xinjiang I recommend them to read this thread by @Wholegrain about the history of demographics in the province first:

The Truth about Uyghur demographics and Han immigration in Xinjiang



Absolutely right. @AndrewJin

Hey thanks for your kind words.

There are simple things that everyone should clearly understand.

1. Each state is responsible for it's own citizens. When a state tries to interfere with another state's internal policies, there is almost always problems that takes years to solve. It's not a recent phenomenon. In last two centuries this phenomenon is observed many times.

- A state uses another country's minorities as an excuses and invades it.
- A state uses another country's minorities as a proxy, arms them and sponsors an internal conflict.
- A state uses another state's political system as an excuse and invades it.
- A state uses another state's political opposition as a proxy, arms them or gives them legitimacy to sponsor an internal conflict.

Those are all different tools that serves one aim which is imperialism. Imperialist nations needs a cause to mobilize their public behind a cause and legitimize their actions. That's where that "poor Iraqis need democracy" or "poor Tibetans needs their own country" narrative comes from.

In the last two centuries with the very tactics that I've mentioned above millions and millions of people died. Countries weren't able to develop and stabilize. People killed eachother for decades because of unclear reasons. And eventually Asian nations as a whole stayed backwards. More then 50% of the World population lives in Asia. But the World politics still dominated by the Western powers. What we called as the West is less then 25% population of the World. Even in terms of popular democracy that the West preaches about Asian people should have a lot more to say about the World politics. The only somewhat developed example of an Asian nation is Japan. However it's a shame that since Meiji Japanese state looks rest of Asia just like Westerners look.

Asian nations are the victims of the tools that I've mentioned above, yet still we use those tools against eachother. That's a shame.

2. When I look at China I don't see Uyghur Turks, Mongolians, Tibetans etc. I see 1.35 billion Chinese citizens, just like I demand from the rest of the World when they look at Turkey they should see 77 million Turkish citizens. Not Kurds, Greeks, Albanian, Cherkes (and I'm half Cherkes by the way) etc.

3. There should be nothing but cooperation between Asian nations. Even if there are political problems those should be solved with lightening speed and cooperation should start. We need development, better education, better technology, high quality economy, high value added production, high scientific output, perfect secularism and we need them fast!

 

[American Pakistani]

Hey thanks for your kind words.

There are simple things that everyone should clearly understand.

1. Each state is responsible for it's own citizens. When a state tries to interfere with another state's internal policies, there is almost always problems that takes years to solve. It's not a recent phenomenon. In last two centuries this phenomenon is observed many times.

- A state uses another country's minorities as an excuses and invades it.
- A state uses another country's minorities as a proxy, arms them and sponsors an internal conflict.
- A state uses another state's political system as an excuse and invades it.
- A state uses another state's political opposition as a proxy, arms them or gives them legitimacy to sponsor an internal conflict.

Those are all different tools that serves one aim which is imperialism. Imperialist nations needs a cause to mobilize their public behind a cause and legitimize their actions. That's where that "poor Iraqis need democracy" or "poor Tibetans needs their own country" narrative comes from.

In the last two centuries with the very tactics that I've mentioned above millions and millions of people died. Countries weren't able to develop and stabilize. People killed eachother for decades because of unclear reasons. And eventually Asian nations as a whole stayed backwards. More then 50% of the World population lives in Asia. But the World politics still dominated by the Western powers. What we called as the West is less then 25% population of the World. Even in terms of popular democracy that the West preaches about Asian people should have a lot more to say about the World politics. The only somewhat developed example of an Asian nation is Japan. However it's a shame that since Meiji Japanese state looks rest of Asia just like Westerners look.

Asian nations are the victims of the tools that I've mentioned above, yet still we use those tools against eachother. That's a shame.

2. When I look at China I don't see Uyghur Turks, Mongolians, Tibetans etc. I see 1.35 billion Chinese citizens, just like I demand from the rest of the World when they look at Turkey they should see 77 million Turkish citizens. Not Kurds, Greeks, Albanian, Cherkes (and I'm half Cherkes by the way) etc.

3. There should be nothing but cooperation between Asian nations. Even if there are political problems those should be solved with lightening speed and cooperation should start. We need development, better education, better technology, high quality economy, high value added production, high scientific output, perfect secularism and we need them fast!

I think China and Turkeye should use the bridge of Pakistan , to establish cordial ties. Pakistan having brotherly relations can be a major player in cementing the ties.

Just my 2cents.

 

[wiseone2]

Hi,

Prove it or it never occurred!

what is this - a court of law ?
It does not fit your narrative. That is not my problem.

 

[My-Analogous]

Brother, don't wish for Ummet to be dead, for that means the end of the world.

Don't worry, we are in sleeping mode and when time come we will wake up just like Allah did many times in past.

 

[salarsikander]

what is this - a court of law ?
It does not fit your narrative. That is not my problem.

Hi,

What's this bullshitting everywhere?

Learn to substantiate your claim like a matured man rather than making *** of yourself which you usually do.

 

[The Vicious Kind]

Yes we hosted 3-5 Afghan refugees. Yes we caused deaths of nearly 1 million Afghans. Yes Afghans refused to host 100 million Muslims from British Raj during 1920s. Afghanistan is a mountainous country and even after 100 years Afghan popluation has not reached 100 million. It was not practical.

Do you have a repeat button on you because that's all you post on threads that have nothing to do with Afghanistan. Its getting pretty old now and people wont take you seriously if you don't have anything other to say. Why don't you create a thread on the so called "atrocities" committed by us in Afghanistan, with facts and not deluded conjectures.

 

[ArsalanKhan21]

Afghanistan, with facts and not deluded conjectures.

Why don't enlighten us with facts about the great strides Afghanistan made in development, education, quality of life, economy during the rule of Talibans supported by the uniformed people in Rawalpindi.

 

[Saurabh jindals]

Well, considering that all of the Muslim countries you mentioned except Pakistan have recognized israel and established cordial relations with it in one form or another i don't think the people or governments of those countries are in any position to criticize Pakistan's strong relations with China.

Pakistan does not recognize israel in order to appease Arabs, Pakistan does not recognize Armenia in order to appease Turks, but Turks and Arabs not only recognize india but also have economic relations with that country.

Pakistan ruined its relations with Iran for the sake of Saudis and other GCC countries and this has harmed our economy for decades and incited sectarian divide within our society, why should we care what the Muslim world now thinks of China? Should we antagonize our only friendly neighbor for the sake of a hypocritical brotherhood?

Considering that Muslim brother countries can backstab each other the way Turkey and Arabs have been doing with fellow Muslim countries like Gaddafi's Libya and Assad's Syria, why should Pakistan put its trust in such backstabbing countries?

UAE's government was ready to trash us as soon as we refused to get involved in their failed war in Yemen and they began to cozy up with our enemy india. This is so called Muslim brother hood.

@Psychic @Samandri @Shamain @Akheilos @p(-)0ENiX

Well Thank's to Pakistan's Double policy Israel is still existing as a country on Arabic Land !! When your govt. sold nuclear secrets to Iran for hoping 10 billion $ in 90's then your ISI secretly leaked this information to Israel secret services. So in short "Who is Backstaber" ?

The Indian government under Modi is not as stupid as we always believe. They will try to use these different positions for their own goals. It's just a matter of time before India on the one side and Turkey, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia on the other side begin to cooperate.

The United Arab Emirates have already begun closer cooperation with India.

What you guys think about this topic?

Other then Iran and UAE, India doesn't give a damn shit to anyother ME country.

Get your facts straight. You are talking clearly bullshit. Turkey has always supported Pakistan in Kashmir. The territorial integrity and the Pakistani sovereignty are cornerstones of Turkish foreign policy.

Hahaha .... go and check the Turkey official Line in case of Kashmir Its exactly same as of India .