Pak economy vs indian economy

[sigatoka]

What matters is how does a forex reserve maximise???

This is weird, waht do you mean?

 

[sigatoka]

you meant to say that foreign exchange reserves have no participation in country's economy:crazy2: . and yes, we don't live in 17th century. that's why china's reserves are touching $1trillion. BTW: these are the key indicators to attract FDI.

You are a fool. China's attraction of FDI have little to do with its foreign reserves. Increasing foreign reserves is a way to reduce unemployment but it can lead to inflationary pressures.

The ideal of maximising of Foreign Reserves (in those days gold bullion) was thouroghly discredited in the 18th century when it was realised that maximising consumption was the correct. Increasing Foreign Reserves should only be used when it maximizes long term consumption ONLY.

When all nations start doing what you say, you end up with a bunch of idiots and hyperinflation all round.

 

[Bull]

i was being generous when i used 300m. Middle income people number 75m according to other reports.

25% poverty means terrible poverty. Not the kind of poverty that other nations use to describe poverty. By Aust. standards, 75% of Indians are poor.

There si only one accepted standard of calculating poverty level and according to that only 25% is below poverty level and was above 45% in 1960s.

According to the latest figures, as measured by Pakistan’s poverty line, 32.6 percent of the population is poor-Word bank Aug 2005.

 

[Bull]

This is weird, waht do you mean?

I missed outon the word manage.

I meant what matters is how we manage the forex reserve.

Off late RBI has increased the amount of money that can be used by indian corporates to make acquisitions abroad.

If u notice there are lot of Indian companies using this forex cushion to takeover companies abroad.

 

[RAPTOR]

i was being generous when i used 300m. Middle income people number 75m according to other reports.

25% poverty means terrible poverty. Not the kind of poverty that other nations use to describe poverty. By Aust. standards, 75% of Indians are poor.

Are you sure its even 75 million? By U.N standards there are 600 million indians living BELOW the poverty line and thats being generous.

 

[Bull]

Are you sure its even 75 million? By U.N standards there are 600 million indians living BELOW the poverty line and thats being generous.

After australian standard now its the UN standard.

Can u enlighten us on where u found this info?

 

[RAPTOR]

i was being generous when i used 300m. Middle income people number 75m according to other reports.

25% poverty means terrible poverty. Not the kind of poverty that other nations use to describe poverty. By Aust. standards, 75% of Indians are poor.

There are various reports, but i wouldnt trust an indian source at all. They are excellent at hiding facts and misrepresenting the truth. Below is an example..


"The 1995 U.S. Army area handbook on India reported that the number below the official poverty line had leaped from 26 percent to 38 percent in the prior six years, afflicting 130 million additional people. The Indian government’s response was to lower its poverty standards! Now “only” 25 percent of the current population, or 260 million people, ostensibly live below the new poverty line. But the World Bank contradicts this assessment. It places 35 percent of India’s current population below “absolute poverty” standards. "

Source-http://www.pww.org/article/view/7471/1/280/

 

[RAPTOR]

Child marriages: India fares poor in UN listTOUFIQ RASHID [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Posted online: Thursday, October 13, 2005 at 0034 hours IST[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif]NEW DELHI, OCTOBER 12: Over 50 per cent of India’s girls are married before they turn 18. These and other grim figures are presented in the UN Population Fund report on the State of the World Population 2005, released yesterday. The report sounds an alarm for efforts in the fight against poverty, naming gender discrimination as one of the greatest factors hampering international attempts to eliminate world poverty. The report—which coincides with the 60th anniversary of the United Nations Charter where equal rights of men and women have been enshrined—said that a lack of access to family planning and reproductive health are closely linked to poverty and productivity.

India’s case, the report quotes a survey conducted in Madhya Pradesh in 1998, according to which, 14 per cent girls in India are married between the age of 10 and 14. The report goes on to emphasise the negative impact of child marriage on reproductive health. ‘‘Married adolescent girls have limited power to influence childbearing or contraceptive decisions, with implications for infant health and survival, maternal mortality, HIV, high fertility and poverty reduction,’’ it said.
According to the report, girls in the age group of 10 to 14 years are more likely to die in pregnancy or childbirth than women aged 20 to 24. Girls aged 15 to 19 are twice as likely to die—the vast majority of maternal deaths take place in this age group. India also has the highest levels of violence in the home against women married at the age of 18 or younger, with 70 per cent of those surveyed having experienced beating. According to the report, such women are more likely to be beaten or threatened and are more likely to believe that a husband might be justified in beating his wife.


-India currently has over 5 million people who are infected with the AIDS virus.[/FONT]

 

[Jay_]

There are various reports, but i wouldnt trust an indian source at all. They are excellent at hiding facts and misrepresenting the truth. Below is an example..

If you have various reports, then post them. Do you mean to say that you cannot find one neutral report that agrees with your numbers??

"The 1995 U.S. Army area handbook on India reported that the number below the official poverty line had leaped from 26 percent to 38 percent in the prior six years, afflicting 130 million additional people.It places 35 percent of India’s current population below “absolute poverty” standards. "

This is year 2006.

 

[sigatoka]

Child marriages: India fares poor in UN listhttp://www.indianexpress.com/grfx/trans.gifhttp://www.indianexpress.com/grfx/trans.gifTOUFIQ RASHID [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Posted online: Thursday, October 13, 2005 at 0034 hours IST[/FONT]

http://www.indianexpress.com/grfx/trans.gif
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif]NEW DELHI, OCTOBER 12: Over 50 per cent of India’s girls are married before they turn 18. .[/FONT]

Problems should be attacked directly, if forced marriages are the problem illegalise it. If pregnancy is the problem, impose taxes on the births before a certain age. If HIV is the problem, subsidize condoms or crackdown on prostitution and promiscuity.


I dont know Raptor, what is the solution to ban marriages below 18? Why not 17 or 16 or 15??

Every number that is chosen is arbitary. If pregnancy is to be prevented than shouldnt the legal age of sex be lifted with the min marriage age? What if two consenting people wish to marry at 16, why should the government be allowed to prevent it?

The attitutes of the U.N. is twisted towards population reduction which is conflated with the idea of poverty. Since the day of Maltus and his discredited theory we still have this theory floating around that population growth is intrinsicly negative. The economic problems of India, Pakistan, Egypt and Nigeria is due to pathetic economic policies and corruption. It has very little to do with population growth.

The African continent (below Sahara) which is the poorest in the world is also one with one of the lowest GDP per capita. In fact those in the U.N. who propose population reduction should be euthanised at 65 because it would be unfair for them to rely on pensions paid by young people who they wanted nto to exist.

Of course i am not saying that the world can support an infintie population, but reason must be used in analysing these issues.

 

[Jay_]

In India, any one above the age of 18 can make independent decisions regarding their marriage. Marriages under 18 are banned by law and is a punishable crime.

The backward states of India have this problem, coz of lack of education and awareness.

The UN finds a correlation between the girl's age to death in pregnancies. The girl's is expected to be fully developed body wise and mentally at 18. Its not a hard and fast rule, but just the average.

 

[Lilo]

because india has a history of doing menial jobs for other people and this way they make $$ and add to their economy and
also india is also a huge market. but still its very poor and dirty and way too many ugly people.but the people living next to pakistan arent bad looking because they are closer to the border i guess.

what do u mean by menial jobs? huh?
Do u know what dignity of labour is? for ur info every person is working under some other guy and that doesnt mean that he is inferior to him.People taking up the outsoursing jobs are satisfied with their decision most importantly they are not working as pseudo bonded labour as was the case with the rural population 20-30 years ago.These people are jus graduates with a degree from an ordinary college and they are in taht job since they are best to that job and there is no dearth of opportunity in india and if a person feels that he is too gud to be in an outsoursed job he can always look to move up and there are lots of openings to take him up.

What u cant tolerate to look at ugly people? u poor thing...

P.s:admin sorry for the personal comment couldnt help it after seeing his hilarious discourse on ugly people.

but mr prasant. as part of a group we went to karachi from montreal and the minute i landed at the airport i thouth i was in heathrow or changi airport. everything was world class and the drive from the airpiort to the sheraton was like driving in any main highway in L.A or london. the roads were clean traffic was orderly and there were flyovers and highrises. then we landed at the bombay airport. well there was no airconditioning working, its was filthy, smelly, everything was made out of cheap plastic the people were rude and then there were beggars everywhere. then we get on the road and i saw slums poverty beggars overcrowded buses bleching out smokes it was scary. if india reduceds its poveryt we didnt see it.
but ourhotel was nice and was pleased with it . it was called hotel taj i think and most of us just did our business and stayed within the hotel and didnt get out at all.. becuz it was way too scary.

i suggest u read this article and realise that ornamental facades in countries like china,pak are just superficial and are particularly meant to impress people like you who just jump on the bandwagon on word go.


India vs. China: Who Has the Edge?


Monday, January 30, 2006
[Jeremy Siegel, Ph.D.]

China and India are likely to be the dominant economic powers by the middle of this century but in many respects they are remarkably different.

Here and in my next column I will analyze the prospects for economic growth and investment in these two emerging giants based in part on a two-week tour of India I just completed and a visit to China eighteen months earlier.

First Impressions Can Be Deceiving

The contrast between your first impression of China and India could scarcely be more extreme. You arrive at China's financial capital, Shanghai's new Pudong International Airport, and walk through spacious, clean corridors to the world's fastest train, the Maglev. Your 30 km (18.6 miles) trip takes only eight minutes on this train that floats magnetically above the tracks and reaches speeds of 430 kph (267 miles per hour). From the Longyang Road Metro Station at the outskirts of the city, an air-conditioned taxi takes you to the Grand Hyatt Hotel. As you exit the car you marvel at the other towering skyscrapers that surround the world's highest hotel, located on the 53rd to 87th floors of the Jin Mao Tower.

Contrast that with a trip to Mumbai, the financial capital of India. You arrive at the decrepit Mumbai International Airport, fight your way through crowds of beggars and unsolicited "helpers" before finding a taxi that takes to you your hotel at the southern edge of Mumbai. Although the trip is only 20 km (12.4 miles), the ride may take 90 minutes or more. There is no direct route as the driver wends his way through side streets trying to find the least crowded route.

Abject poverty lines the road. Millions have flocked to this city seeking employment, many with only tents or cardboard walls as housing. No sanitation facilities are to be seen. When the traffic stops, young children and women holding babies approach your car, tapping on the windows, begging for a few rupees.

As you progress to the southern end of the city, more substantial buildings come into view. Yet the vast majority of the structures, especially the rental units, are poorly constructed and dirty from the daily assault of polluted air. Most of the architecture of note in Mumbai was built before the First World War, primarily by the British. You finally arrive at your hotel, The Taj Palace on the Arabian Sea, built in 1903.

From these two realities one might wonder why anyone would ever consider investing in India over China. Ranking the two countries on infrastructure - roads, airports, and new buildings, China looks like a ten and India hovers close to zero.


Winds are Changing

But India is changing, and changing rapidly. The Mumbai Stock Exchange's Index of 30 blue chip companies has more than tripled in the last 2½ years, far outpacing the China's stock returns. And although China's stupendous economic growth rate still surpasses India's, India has now reached the 6% plus rate of GDP growth that marks the emergence of a developing country.

What has caused this new look at India? Underneath the surface, India's ledger is lined with pluses that compensate for its woeful exterior.

Language, Government and Freedom of the Press


The fact that the educated classes all know English gives Indians a comparative advantage in the growing informational sciences and services, while the Chinese advantage still resides in manufacturing. The world's ¬lingua franca, especially in the business and scientific world, is English and that unquestionably gives a leg up to those who know it. Our guide in Jodhpur said that there are two things that he wants his son to learn in school: English and computers. That knowledge, he said, opened up the opportunities for his people.


Government

Eighteen months ago, when I offered an excited view of China's commercial future, doubters frequently asked: "How is this possible under an avowedly 'communist' government." I believe China will evolve into a more democratic political system as it pulls itself out of poverty and feels the pressure of a growing middle class.

Although this political evolution is likely, it is by no means a sure thing. Yet for India a democracy already exists, and it has withstood many crises. Furthermore India enjoys an independent judiciary, a critical adjunct to a democratic system.

Democracy is the best system in which power can evolve from the private sector, not from dictates of the government. As far as the politics are concerned, there are no reservations about India.

Rule of Law and Meritocracy

It is well known that the Chinese are master copiers, and openly sell merchandise sporting pirated designer labels or hawk intellectual property that is easily downloaded in our digital world. Although this also exists in India, it does so to a far lesser extent.

Private enterprise, private property and the rule of law has been the norm in India since the British occupation. In contrast, until recently, the Chinese government owned and controlled everything. In fact, in Forbes' latest list of the world's wealthiest people, 12 Indians made the list and only two Chinese. And there is a growing consensus in India that this wealth creation can help everybody rise, not just those at the top.

Education

India is built on a meritocracy where performance on exams dictates jobs and admission to the top-ranked schools. At the top, India's education system is as good as any, and the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) rivals MIT as the world's producer of top scientists.

Furthermore the Indian Institute of Management recently had 200,000 applications for only 250 seats at its top Ahmedabad campus, a ratio that puts the Ivy League' selectivity to shame. Although India does have an "affirmative action" program for those in the lowest castes, the private sector is not subject to these quotas and therefore is free to hire "the best and the brightest."

There's no doubt that China is also developing top schools, both in science and in business. The latter is particularly important to China since the Communist system is filled with managers of state-owned enterprises that are woefully inadequate in a private-sector economy. India is ahead of China in this area.

Indian education at the lower levels is not nearly as good as at the top. In fact, several experts I talked to put "education" above "infrastructure" and India's number one priority. Nevertheless, the excellence of education at the top has given Indians a great deal of pride in their ability to achieve world-class excellence, and it has been a strong democratizing influence in a society that has been mired in a rigidly hierarchical caste system.

Where's the Money?

India lags in the hard infrastructure of roads, airports, and buildings, but leads in the "soft" infrastructure of democratic institutions, free press, and an independent judiciary.

http://finance.yahoo.com/columnist/article/futureinvest/2369?p=1

Admin Edit and Note: If he is hitting ignore, we are going to edit it, you "responding" back will lead to a flame and nothing useful.

 

[Lilo]

And china has its list of fundemental flaws behind its glittering cities and meandering flyovers.

Some transcripts from articles written by John chan on WSWS.org

WSWS International Editorial Board meeting
The implications of China for world socialism
Part One,two and three
By John Chan
9 March 2006

More fundamental than the immediate economic problems is the social disaster created by the anarchy of the market and the concentration of wealth in the most privileged layers of the society. A UN Development Program reported in December that China’s Gini co-efficient—the internationally-recognised measure of social inequality—has increased to 0.45, the same level as American society. The UN report pointed out that this gulf between rich and poor was created in just a generation and warned that the process has generated enormous hardship and dislocation for hundreds of millions of people.

Important social gains of the 1949 revolution, such as public education and universal healthcare, have been cut to the bone. The deregulation of industry has caused some of the worst pollution and safety records in the world. By 2010, China is likely to become the world’s biggest producer of greenhouse gases. The human carnage of capitalist production is best exemplified in China’s coal mining industry. China is the world’s largest producer of coal, which it achieves through mass low-cost labour rather than the use of machinery. As energy demands have skyrocketted, so has the annual death toll in the mines. Many other Chinese industries are no less barbaric.

This is Chinese capitalism: labour intensive, oppressive to workers and socially unjust as well as being completely anarchic and environmentally destructive. Official corruption, drug addiction, prostitution and all the other social evils from the pre-revolutionary era have been brought back. As China and India become the new benchmarks for wages and conditions around the world, these economic processes are rapidly intensifying class tensions within China and internationally.

The implications of growing unrest

The result is rising social discontent and widespread hostility among workers and peasants toward the regime. According to the latest figures released in January by China’s Ministry of Public Security, the number of protests and riots increased by 6.6 percent to 87,000 in 2005. In a plea to the public, a ministry spokesman said: “We hope the masses will express their appeals through lawful channels and consciously safeguard public order and respect laws to resolve problems in a harmonious and an orderly way.”

What does this increasing social discontent signify? It is an expression of extreme social polarisation between rich and poor, with almost no social buffer between the regime and the masses.

One of the bloodiest clashes between authorities and protestors took place in December when Chinese paramilitary police units armed with automatic weapons shot and killed a number of villagers in the southern province of Guangdong. This is the first reported incident in which the Chinese government has used firearms to suppress a protest since the Tiananmen massacre.

The incident alarmed the US-based think tank Stratfor, which commented on the social explosion brewing in China. “This is an explosive mixture in any country, but particularly so in China, which has a tradition of revolution and unrest. The idea that the farmers will simply walk away from their land or that the unemployed will just head back to the countryside is simplistic. There are massive social movements in play that combine the two most powerful forces in China: workers and peasants,” it stated.

“The important thing to note is that both the quantity and intensity of these confrontations is increasing. While the Western media focus on the outer shell of China’s economic growth—the side that is visible in Western hotels throughout major cities—the Chinese masses are experiencing simultaneously both the costs of industralisation and the costs of economic failure. The sum of this equation is unrest. The question is how far the unrest will go.

“At the moment, there does not appear to be any national organization that speaks for the farmers or unemployed workers. The uprisings are local, driven by particular issues, and are not coordinated on any national scale. The one group that tried to create a national resistance, Falun Gong, has been marginalized by the Chinese government. China’s security forces are capable, growing and effective. They have prevented the emergence of any nationalized opposition thus far.

“At the same time, the growing and intensification of unrest is there for anyone to exploit. It won’t go away, because the underlying economic processes cannot readily be brought under control. In China, as elsewhere, the leadership cadre of any mass movement has been made up of intellectuals. But between Tiananmen Square and jobs in Westernized industries, the Chinese intellectuals have been either cowed or hired. China is now working hard to keep these flashpoint issues local and to placate localities that reach the boiling point—at least until later, when arrests can be made. That is what they are doing in Shanwei [where the police shooting took place]. The process is working. But as the economy continues to simultaneously grow and worsen, the social unrest will have to spread.”

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/mar2006/cha1-m09.shtml
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/mar2006/cha2-m10.shtml
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/mar2006/cha3-m11.shtml

There are scores of other articles in this site outlining the problems faced by China and the indian subcontinent on challenges faced by them in their respective quest towards development.I suggest u read some of them
as they provide a picture of the other side of the coin unlike most mainstream news articles which provide a rosy picture and gloat over superficial facades.

 

[sigatoka]

And china has its list of fundemental flaws behind its glittering cities and meandering flyovers.

Lilo get off the drugs, China's economy is not only THREE TIMES as big as India's; It is still growing faster than India and forecasted to grow faster as well. The gap between China and India is GROWING not getting smaller. The fundamentals of the Chinese economy is stronger than that of U.S. let alone India. Chinese economic growth is built upon the embrace of trade, FDI and thus the transfer of surplus labour from Agriculture to manufacturing and Services.

India is nowwhere near and within the next 15 years the Chinese economy will overtake the U.S. (China's economy is 7trillion and U.S. is around 13 trillion both @ PPP) while China is growing at 2.5 times as fast as U.S. U.S. economic growth in the last six years has been built upon excessive consumption @ the expense of saving on the part of consumers built on dramatic increase in house values and large unsustainable Tax cuts as well as stimulatory government spending on military. All these things have been leading to inflationary pressures.

India's problem is a twin problem. Firstly the backward policy is that towards trade. It is stifled with quotas and tarriffs. Second problem is attitude towards FDI. These two factors alone would account for a potential growth lost of around 2%.

In the last five years it has been Pakistan not India which has tackled the oppressive restrictions on trade and FDI more decisivly. Such supply side changes will manifest within five to ten years and it will be Pakistan which will be in a stronger postion to achieve higher economic growth, not India.

India has also shot itself in the foot by rejecting the Gas pipline deal with Iran. Paksitan has alreday benefited by cheaper gas from Iran.

 

[Neo]

Good post Sigatoka!
Keep posting! :thumbsup: