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Pak economy vs indian economy

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sigatoka said:
India has also shot itself in the foot by rejecting the Gas pipline deal with Iran. Paksitan has alreday benefited by cheaper gas from Iran.
Sig,
You may want to view this in another way, India may have rejected the Iran-Pak gas pipline because of the geo-political interest that puts the future of the IPI project in jeapordy. While the Myanmar-India pipeline is a relatively peaceful region.

Secondly, the economics of the IPI gas pipeline may not work for cheap gas for India. Read the article in the link below. Those conservant with economics and its nuances maybe able to through some light on the fears pointed out in the article below.

Gas from Iran may cost India dear

March 21, 2005


The proposal of setting up a gas pipeline from Iran to India via Pakistan seems to be gaining momentum with Iran agreeing to take responsibility for delivering the gas to the Indian border, rather than to just its border with Pakistan, thereby accepting transit risks inside Pakistan.
Also, Iran is said to be offering to guarantee additional liquefied natural gas in case of a disruption in pipeline gas supplies.
The bad news for prospective Indian buyers is that Iran is proposing that LNG pricing terms be one of the key benchmarks to price pipeline gas for prospective Indian buyers. "It will be the cheapest gas to India," says Iranian Petroleum Minister Bijan Zangeneh.
It looks anything but cheap. Given Iran's recent 20 per cent hike in LNG prices, high construction costs due to tough terrain, security charges and Pakistan's demand for steep transit fees, gas through a 2,600-km Iran-India pipeline could end up being too expensive for Indian users' tastes.
As a thumb rule, it is cheaper to send gas through a pipeline when distances between gas fields and markets are less than 1,000 km. LNG, which involves more than a billion dollars in investments in a liquefaction facility and specialised carriers to transport gas and a regassifaction terminal, becomes viable only when distances exceed 1,000 km.....
http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/mar/21guest2.htm
 
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sword9 said:
Sig,
You may want to view this in another way, India may have rejected the Iran-Pak gas pipline because of the geo-political interest that puts the future of the IPI project in jeapordy. While the Myanmar-India pipeline is a relatively peaceful region.

Secondly, the economics of the IPI gas pipeline may not work for cheap gas for India. Read the article in the link below. Those conservant with economics and its nuances maybe able to through some light on the fears pointed out in the article below.

rediff is a biased website promoting only hate material against opponents of India so i think the artilce is also a followup of that aimed at justifying the decision of (if taken) rejcting the IPI gas pipeline project.

If the project was rejected by India it will be clearly due to US pressure after she struck a deal with India over nuclear energy.
But lets hope it not happens as i heard India is still in the project.
 
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sword9 said:
Sig,
You may want to view this in another way, India may have rejected the Iran-Pak gas pipline because of the geo-political interest that puts the future of the IPI project in jeapordy. While the Myanmar-India pipeline is a relatively peaceful region.
Sword,

Myanmar's proven deposits are still too low, with current production they'll be out of gas within three decades.
Btw, Myanmar is exporting 10 billion mcf per year.
 
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Field Marshal said:
rediff is a biased website promoting only hate material against opponents of India so i think the artilce is also a followup of that aimed at justifying the decision of (if taken) rejcting the IPI gas pipeline project.

If the project was rejected by India it will be clearly due to US pressure after she struck a deal with India over nuclear energy.
But lets hope it not happens as i heard India is still in the project.

Dont look ate th emessenger,but look at the message.

Arent we all educated enough to decipher whats propoganda and whats good argument?

india has rejected the offer because during hostilities the pipleline wud have been shut for sure by pakistan.

There is a very good POV put forward by sword9.

Only way India could have had taken the deal is by having a bi-latertal agreement with Iran and not a tripatriate agreement.

India agrees to pay for what it recieves,whats lost shud be dealth by Pakistan and Iran.
 
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Neo said:
Sword,
Myanmar's proven deposits are still too low, with current production they'll be out of gas within three decades.
Btw, Myanmar is exporting 10 billion mcf per year.

Neo,
Myanmar has a proven gas reserves of 18.53 TCF, while Iran has a proven reserves of about 27.5 TCF, not much of a difference in the realm of global oil quest.

The 4 Caspian states- Russia, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan have a combined proven reserves of about 143 TCF.

So I think India is moving in the right direction by moving to buy Myanmar and Turkmenistan gas.
 
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Jay_ said:
Neo,
Myanmar has a proven gas reserves of 18.53 TCF, while Iran has a proven reserves of about 27.5 TCF, not much of a difference in the realm of global oil quest.

The 4 Caspian states- Russia, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan have a combined proven reserves of about 143 TCF.

So I think India is moving in the right direction by moving to buy Myanmar and Turkmenistan gas.

Jay, could you please provide me the link to support the claim?
Last time I checked CIA Worldfactbook, the reserves were signifacantly low!
 
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Neo,

My bad, Myanmar's proven reserves is in TCF while Iran's reserves are in TCM.

1 cubic meter = 35.3146667 cubic feet

:sad:

But the rest of the stuff is good. Bonus point, TAP will have access to other Caspian gas reserves.

Pretty good info here,
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/pdf/nat_gas.pdf
 
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Some more news to ponder, this is atleast a year old anyway.

What if the Iran gas deal does not go through?

Raghuvir Srinivasan

If the Iran gas deal does not go through, there may be ramifications for LNG prices in India as a major supply source is taken out. This shortfall would have to be met with new gas sourced at substantially higher prices.

BAD NEWS for some can be good news for others. The LNG (liquefied natural gas) deal with Iran appears to be unravelling to India's disadvantage due to various reasons. But that could be good news for at least two companies in the gas business in the country — Reliance Industries and Petronet LNG. Both are emerging big players and competitors in the natural gas industry. While Reliance is working on producing gas from its KG (Krishna-Godavari) basin field by 2008-09, Petronet LNG, having already proven the viability of importing and re-gasifying natural gas it for onward sale to users, is now on an ambitious expansion programme.

First on why the Iran deal may not happen. Even as New Delhi grapples with the nuances of the position that the country should take at the upcoming IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) meeting, it is increasingly becoming clear that the LNG deal may well unravel and for reasons not connected to the vote by India against Iran.

The United States appears to be leaning on American companies that are eager to supply equipment for the liquefaction of LNG in Iran. Reports are that General Electric has refused to supply critical equipment for the liquefaction plant in Iran.

Liquefaction is the process where gas is super-cooled to minus-161 degrees Centigrade when it becomes liquid. This liquid (LNG) is then transported through cryogenic vessels that maintain the low temperature and is then re-gasified into natural gas. GE's compressors are important equipment in this process and if it has indeed refused supplies, the liquefaction plant could be a non-starter.

Besides this, the US can also prevent the transfer of the liquefaction technology developed by its companies. German company Linde has reportedly refused to give this technology to Iran, as Germany is one of the sponsors of the resolution to refer Iran to the United Nations Security Council.

As the plot thickens on the nuclear violations controversy, it is unlikely that the Iran LNG deal will come through by 2009 as originally planned, which is bad news for India.

By 2009, the demand for natural gas is projected to run way ahead of supplies; Iran was a crucial supply source to bridge this gap. But this may buy time for Reliance Industries and Petronet LNG. Reliance's development of the KG basin is behind schedule, and the first commercial gas from this field is expected to flow by 2009, the same time the Iran LNG was supposed to arrive.

Similarly, Petronet LNG is planning to double its re-gasification capacity at Dahej, Gujarat, to 10 million tonnes and is also planning a second terminal and plant at Kochi of 2.5 million tonnes. The Dahej expansion could be complete by 2008, with the Kochi terminal following a couple of years from then.

To be sure, given the huge increase projected in demand, the Iran LNG was never a threat to either of these two companies. In fact, in Petronet's case there was talk that the LNG may be re-gasified at its expanded plant at Dahej and in Kochi, though this was never certain because Indian Oil was keen on setting up its own LNG plant.

A failure of the Iran deal would mean that domestic gas prices could settle at a higher level and we are not talking of APM (administered pricing mechanism) gas prices here, which will continue to be under government control anyway.

The possible failure of the deal holds ramifications for gas prices in the country as a major supply source is taken out. LNG prices globally now hover at $8-$10 per million British thermal unit (MBTU) compared to the $2.5 that Petronet pays its supplier.

The Iran LNG was priced just over $3 per MBTU, which is substantially lower than the prevailing global prices. If the deal falls through, this gap would have to be met with new gas sourced at substantially higher prices. Petronet is now negotiating for LNG supplies for its increased re-gasification capacity; these could be benchmarked to the prevailing global prices. The company will now have more freedom in price negotiations, as the unmet demand will be huge in the domestic market with little cheap gas available. This freedom in negotiating the price will certainly help in LNG sourcing.

Similarly, Reliance could get a much higher price than the $3 per MBTU that it quoted for the NTPC deal. This means that its project economics will look a couple of shades brighter.

There is one major assumption here though — that gas buyers in India such as power, fertiliser and petrochemical producers will be willing to pay market prices that are almost three times what they pay now under the APM.

They may hold out in the short-term, but in the long run with APM for gas gradually being phased out, they may have no option but to shift to the free-market gas.

http://www.blonnet.com/iw/2005/10/30/stories/2005103000060800.htm
 
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I don't like to take CIA Worldbook of Facts as an ultimate source, but here's the link anyway.
It contains list of world proven gas reserves in Cubic Meters countrywise.
Myanmar (Burma) is ranked 42 holding deposits of 283.2 billion Cu m, way below India and Pakistan!!
Current production stands at 9.98 billion, so there's just enough for a quarter of a century!

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2179rank.html
 
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Gas from Iran may cost India dear
Guest Column > Dinakar Sethuraman
March 21, 2005

The proposal of setting up a gas pipeline from Iran to India via Pakistan seems to be gaining momentum with Iran agreeing to take responsibility for delivering the gas to the Indian border, rather than to just its border with Pakistan, thereby accepting transit risks inside Pakistan.

Also, Iran is said to be offering to guarantee additional liquefied natural gas in case of a disruption in pipeline gas supplies.

The bad news for prospective Indian buyers is that Iran is proposing that LNG pricing terms be one of the key benchmarks to price pipeline gas for prospective Indian buyers. "It will be the cheapest gas to India," says Iranian Petroleum Minister Bijan Zangeneh.

It looks anything but cheap. Given Iran's recent 20 per cent hike in LNG prices, high construction costs due to tough terrain, security charges and Pakistan's demand for steep transit fees, gas through a 2,600-km Iran-India pipeline could end up being too expensive for Indian users' tastes.

As a thumb rule, it is cheaper to send gas through a pipeline when distances between gas fields and markets are less than 1,000 km. LNG, which involves more than a billion dollars in investments in a liquefaction facility and specialised carriers to transport gas and a regassifaction terminal, becomes viable only when distances exceed 1,000 km.

In general, cross-country pipelines are fewer in Asia compared to Europe and America. Singapore gets gas from Malaysia and Indonesia via three pipelines and Thailand gets gas from Myanmar.

None of the pipes cross a third country and so there are no transit fees involved. Moreover, the length of the pipelines are well within 1,000 km.

The Iran-Pakistan-India pipeline project was never cheap to begin with, given the political and security risks and the hostile terrain. Nearly 1,100 km of the pipe lies in Iran, 990 km in Pakistan and 510 km in India.

In Pakistan the pipeline traverses Balochistan, a hostile territory outside Islamabad's control. A report by the US National Intelligence Council and the CIA forecast a "Yugoslav-like fate" for Pakistan in a decade with the country riven by civil war, bloodshed and inter-provincial rivalries, as seen recently in Balochistan.

Militant Balochi tribesmen, revolting against Islamabad's policies of stripping a resource-rich province, attacked the Sui gas field, which supplies nearly 45 per cent of the county's gas, cutting off supplies to the commercial capital of Karachi and other cities, for a few days. The Balochis would care less for a pipeline to India.

BHP Billiton plans to bury the entire pipeline one metre below the ground. Compressor stations to pump the gas will be installed every 100 km and these will be clothed in concrete armour.

"It can withstand rocket attacks," says an official. In addition, BHP plans to have armed patrols and to install sensors all along the route. All this does not come cheap, especially for a 2600-km stretch.

Transit fees further add to the project cost. Project participants remain far apart on one critical cost component -- transit fees. Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf has been quoted as expecting fees as high as $700 million a year.

However, Iftikhar Rashid, a spokesman for Pakistan's ministry of petroleum, told an Iranian paper that Pakistan would get only $70 million to $80 million in transit fees, based on typical charges in other parts of the world.

He termed $500 million to $600 million "an exaggerated and fabricated figure" that "India would never accept."

Political risks cannot be ignored. G Parthasarathy, a former Indian high commissioner to Pakistan, said in a recent article: "Less than a decade ago when our high commissioner Satish Chandra asked Pakistan's then president Farookh Leghari what guarantees he could give that Pakistan not halt energy supplies to India, Leghari told Chandra that as

India-Pakistan conflicts had never lasted beyond a few weeks, supplies would, at best be interrupted by Pakistan for a few weeks."

Finance charges and political-risk guarantees increase because of political and security risks. BHP officials insist that all three countries should take equity in the pipeline project to guarantee the success of the project.

An investment banker from Sumitomo Banking Corporation said that financing costs are likely to be high for an Iran-India pipe because of the inherent risks associated with the project.

Unlike Qatar, Iran does not have a track record in exporting gas in large quantities from multi-billion dollar projects. Insurance premiums are likely to be quite high given Iran's belligerent nuclear stance, internal problems in Pakistan and fragile relations between India and Pakistan.

Making matters worse are escalating oil prices. Iran has increased prices of gas since early last year by more than 25 per cent, sensing a hardening of global oil and gas prices.

The Iranians are linking prices of pipeline gas to prices of LNG, which they plan to supply to India under a recent long-term contract. "Iran is better off reinjecting the gas to increase oil production instead of selling at a low price," says a BHP official justifying the price hike by Iran.

Fereidon Fesheraki, an international energy consultant, in a report by Hawaii-based consultancy Facts Inc entitled Rising LNG and Oil Prices in a Seller's Market: Are We Ready for the New Game? says that gas prices are headed higher, with competition for supply from the US forcing Asians to pay crude oil parity or above for LNG, rather than the slight discount to the Japanese Crude Cocktail provided under traditional long-term LNG contracts in Asia.

The result could be delivered prices of $7 to $10 per million Btu (British Thermal Unit) before the end of this decade. Currently, with crude oil futures in New York circling the $55 per barrel mark, traders are predicting that Nymex gas futures -- soon turning into some sort of global gas pricing benchmark -- will soon test $7 per million Btu or more.

Rising gas prices does no good when you are negotiating with Iran for supply of 100 million cubic metres of gas a day -- existing Indian gas demand -- via pipeline.

So far India is paying around 20 per cent more for Iranian LNG than what it pays for LNG imports from Qatar under an existing 5-million tons a year LNG import contract.

The Indian side made substantial concessions on pricing to Iran, confirming a slide toward sell-side power in Asian LNG. The LNG contract reportedly provides for a fixed f.o.b. price of $2.97 per million Btu for three years, well above the fixed $2.5 per million Btu that Petronet is paying to Qatar's Rasgas for five years.

After that, IOC and Gail are to pay $1.20 per million Btu, plus 6.25 per cent of the per-barrel price of North Sea Brent crude, subject to a ceiling of $31 per barrel and a floor of $10 per barrel for Brent.

This is the first known case of relatively high-priced Brent, rather than the average Japanese crude import price known as the Japanese Crude Cocktail being used in Asian LNG pricing.

The $2.97 per million Btu initial price reflects Brent at around $28 per barrel, only slightly less than the $3.14 per million Btu that India would pay if indexation were applied with Brent at the $31 per barrel cap.

The variable, oil-linked portion of the price at the initial level is about 40 per cent, more than 30 per cent or so in the Northwest Shelf sale of Australian LNG to China.

The $10-$31 per barrel oil-price range over which indexation applies is also much wider than the roughly $14-$25 per barrel in the first Indian and Chinese contracts.

End users in India are worried because Iranian gas -- either in the form of LNG or pipeline gas -- will be priced much higher than Petronet LNG's $4.5 per million Btu delivered price to industrial consumers.

"The market will not pay more. Power production in India is viable only at $3 per million Btu gas prices," says Vishvjeet Kanwarpal, chief executive of Asia Consulting Group.

National Thermal Power Corporation officials insist that coal starts replacing gas as fuel in power plants once gas prices cross $3.50 per million Btu. Power and fertiliser companies consume more than 80 per cent of India's gas demand and one cannot wish away their complaints.

http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/mar/21guest2.htm
 
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India's own reserves are higher than those of Myanmar as so is the production.
Iran holds world second largest reserves, measured 26.62 trillion and Turkmenistan with latest discovery is holding almost 4 trillion Cu m.

So Myanmar is merely a temorary solution.
 
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sword9 said:
Sig,
You may want to view this in another way, India may have rejected the Iran-Pak gas pipline because of the geo-political interest that puts the future of the IPI project in jeapordy. While the Myanmar-India pipeline is a relatively peaceful region.

Secondly, the economics of the IPI gas pipeline may not work for cheap gas for India. Read the article in the link below. Those conservant with economics and its nuances maybe able to through some light on the fears pointed out in the article below.

That 1000km figure is a load of crap, at the very minimum it is 1,500 and most experts consider out to 2,000 km viable. Regardless, there was more at stake than just a stupid pipeline. There was a great opportunity for an intergrated energy market in South East Asia which was missed. This over time would have led to lower energy prices across the sub-continent and unlike nuclear energy is a proven green fuel.
 
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Yeah even if India has some corruption, I don't really understand the approach of this topic.. why are we comparing Pakistan and India? Why not instead look at this topic and talk about how Pakistan can avoid it or be better instead of talking as if it's way ahead of India in all respects.
 
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India's Burning Example for Pakistan | Global Envision

India's Burning Example for Pakistan

Topics: Globalization, Economic Development
Countries: India, Pakistan
Previously filed under: Asia, Opinions and Editorials

With Pakistan on the edge after President Musharraf's recent declaration of martial law, what forces may conspire to stabilize and move the country ahead.
Without a change to its current economic environment, Pakistan will not be able to succeed in the globalizing world. Photo Credit: pingnews.com
Pakistan, to be certain, is a country on the brink. To some, President Musharraf's recent declaration of martial law is a desperate move of the country's military and land-owning elite to stave off a religiously inspired revolution.

Caught in between is Pakistan's middle class — there, as elsewhere, the foundation for building an equitable, post-feudalist, post-corruption society.

All Aboard

Under these treacherous circumstances, is there anything that can focus the minds of a sufficiently large number of Pakistanis to transition the current latent chaos to a constructive outcome?

The only factor that could get the job done, in a word, is India. Simply put, Pakistan is seeing the globalization train pulling out of the station — with India aboard and settling in for the ride.

With the single-handed exception of the truly antiquity-minded radical wing of the country's religious leaders, all other layers of Pakistan's leadership do realize that the country is running the danger of being left behind in the race of development.

Up and Up

Its population is exploding in size, with forecasts that it will increase from the current level of 164 million to 290 million by 2050. At that point, Pakistan would become the world's fifth-most-populous country.

But under current conditions, there is little chance Pakistan could create anywhere near enough jobs for all of its new citizens.

Busting at the Seams

In the Arab and Muslim world the youth bulge - and especially the ever-larger groups of unemployed males - is the real problem.
It is widely acknowledged in the Arab and Muslim world that the youth bulge — and especially the ever-larger groups of unemployed males — is the real problem for those societies. That realization is increasingly shared even by those countries' religious leaders.

Absent a determined focus on economic growth, this is a time bomb that nobody will be able to handle.

Of course, Pakistan's intelligence services have long played an extremely cynical, self-absorbed game that may — in effect, or by design — end up negating the fruits of what the civilian economic leadership team under Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz — the erstwhile Finance Minister and ex-top Citibanker — has accomplished.

Wasting Good Growth

That would be a terrible shame. After all, even though the fruits of economic growth are still not distributed fairly enough throughout society, Pakistan's major cities do benefit from the prevailing growth dynamics.

These help to concentrate the mind on moving ahead — rather than falling to the temptation of opting for the Stone Age, proverbially speaking — a temptation often borne out of sheer material despair.

Slowly but Surely

It is in the face of those grim realities that Pakistan's political leaders — and all the powers behind them — must operate and plan for the future. None of these issues will be resolved easily — and success is not at all guaranteed.

A major inducement, which the entire world can only hope for, is that Pakistani leaders will undergo a process of transformation in historic terms — along the lines shown by India.

Rapprochement Any society that over-emphasizes military spending at the expense of the economy is ultimately doomed.


Over time, better economic performance is also the best inducement to improve relations between both nations.

Such a rapprochement, if it materializes, will resemble the one Germany and France went through in Europe after 1950. Given the bloody and bitter wars those two nations fought, it is downright amazing to look at where Germany and France are today — happily united in many ways. As with India and Pakistan now, nobody thought that was possible.

Gorbi Knows Best

The other lesson being learned, especially in Pakistan these days, is the one Mikhail Gorbachev taught the Soviet Union. Any society that over-emphasizes military spending at the expense of the economy is ultimately doomed.

Pakistan's leaders must recognize that, compared to India, they face much bigger difficulties in strengthening their economy. Pakistan has to contend with comparative disadvantages that go well beyond the absence of sufficiently large pools of software engineers.

Tying the Knot

Pakistan's best economic hope is one that, admittedly, may seem far-fetched today — namely, to hitch its own economic development on the dynamism of India's economy. In the end, what we are seeing is something profound. It has almost become a commonplace assertion that globalization does not advance — but rather hinders — the advancement of a constructive and equitable global agenda.

Getting the Job Done

Pakistan's best economic hope is to hitch its own economic development on the dynamism of India's economy.
And after 9/11 — and with constant fears of terrorism — wise commentators, such as William Greider, have argued that globalization has returned "with a strangely diminished glow."

And yet, looking ahead — not back — the inverse is true as well. Only a greater sense of realism-cum-cooperation, as complex as it is, will advance individual nations' prospects and well-being.

Hyping and distrust and disregard for the power of economics and the vitality of growth will surely not get the job done of making the global community more sustainable, inclusive and broader-based.

Globalization to the Rescue

In short, the positive, motivating powers of globalization — that is, the effort to stay, or become, competitive in an integrating world — is a crucial driver in shaping our human future.

As is typical for the transformation tasks related to globalization, that is a very risky — but unavoidable — mission. And clearly, few country pairings are as hairy and potentially troubled in this regard than how India and Pakistan influence each other. In the end, globalization is all about moving key countries toward a resolution of all their outdated conflicts.
 
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Just adding to my previous post
 
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