Donatello
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What happened? Muse was a serving officer? I hope everything is fine.
Pak Armed Forces Non-Military Projects
- Thread starter Xeric
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What happened? Muse was a serving officer? I hope everything is fine.
Xeric
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Thora jiya credit sanu we day do....i tweeted this (PDF) link to my 4K followers a few days back.
Abu Zolfiqar
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vhats your twitter
---------- Post added at 12:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 AM ----------
he was a (as Xeric would call it) ''enthusiastic''
Jango
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he was a (as Xeric would call it) ''enthusiastic''
business adventure while serving eh?
gubbi
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Excellent posts and information. Now being the true spoilsport that I am, I see many of these projects are "For-Profit" ventures, with little or some of the profits being poured back into the ventures or welfare projects. I am not talking about genuine welfare projects (every professional armed force have their own welfare projects funded by their respective governments). What is done with the remaining profits?
Question:
How many other countries' armed forces operate such "Profit generating" ventures (am not talking about the welfare projects)?
With many of these projects running in parallel with civilian institutions, doesn't this competition stymie the civilian institutions' abilities and clash with their work?
If the army operates companies for Oil, Energy, Fertilizers, Cement, Sugar, Fishing (!), Real Estate, Pharmaceuticals(!!), Insurance etc, what are the civilian institutions going to do? All of these are splendid money making fields!! One cannot compete with the level of logistical prowess the Pak Army has, so no competition there is a no-brainer - subsequently the civilian institutions WILL suffer.
What about the profits?
No wonder when people say that the Pak Army is a state within a state.
And as for comparison with Indian Army's budget, the IA does NOT operate, AFAIK, any For-Profit commercial ventures. So, whatever money is spent by the armed forces comes from the defense budget provided by the civilian government.
Abu Zolfiqar
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No, Pakistan is just not a command economy where all industries are regulated by government body; free market enterprise
it isnt like these companies have any kind of unfair advantage over other companies...and how many times must it be reiterated that a good chunk of those employed at these industries/foundries/companies etc are CIVILIANS
it isnt like these companies have any kind of unfair advantage over other companies...and how many times must it be reiterated that a good chunk of those employed at these industries/foundries/companies etc are CIVILIANS
gubbi
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No, Pakistan is just not a command economy where all industries are regulated by government body; free market enterprise
it isnt like these companies have any kind of unfair advantage over other companies...and how many times must it be reiterated that a good chunk of those employed at these industries/foundries/companies etc are CIVILIANS
Many other countries' Armed forces employ a large number of civilians too. But that doesnt overlook the fact that Pak Army operating "For -Profit" ventures and has companies peddling Cement, Pharmaceuticals, Fishing, Real Estate etc!!! The way the Army is structured with its unparalleled national logistical lines, of course, the civilian institutions are definitely at a huge disadvantage. Can you compare a small Pharmaceutical or a Cement start up with the logistics of the Cement producing unit of the Army?
And then you people blame the civilian institutions for 'incompetence'?
Abu Zolfiqar
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i stopped reading when you used the word ''peddling''
first of all, have you looked at the slides presented or are you just blabbering? You missed the part where it said these are tax-bound enterprises? They arent above the law. Railways and PIA should have been lucrative, but they are over-staffed and they are mismanaged. Blame that on Army too?
gubbi
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For want of a better word at the moment. On second thoughts, I stand by the word - for its appropriate given the context.
Tax bound or not, the fact remains the the Army operates 'for-profit' commercial ventures when its raison d'etre should be defense of the land. Period.
Please to be showing us, which other countries' armed forces operate such commercial ventures in direct competition with civilian and govt institutions? (Dont mention China, Korea, IRIran and their likes.) Not to mention that Pak Army is funded by the civilian govt budget.
Abu Zolfiqar
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gubbi
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Did you even understand my, as you put it -FOCKING questions and POV?
Abu Zolfiqar
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hell -- the Roosevelt Inn Hotel (on Madison avenue in New York City) should have been lucrative enough for PIA (and inevitably, the government)
---------- Post added at 02:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 AM ----------
i dont see a question, i see garbage and misinformation
---------- Post added at 02:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 AM ----------
i dont see a question, i see garbage and misinformation
Xeric
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@Abu and Gubbi
Abu, well it's guud to see another 'enthusiastic' wasting our bandwidth. As you have rightly pointed out, had Gubbi Sire read through the slides, he wouldnt have asked these questions, but then you know as it has has become our day job to answer ********, i wont mind replying him.
A quick reply can be;
The slide mentions the EXACT number of employees (both civilian and military) at these ventures. Anybody with an IQ of a frog can see that the military representation in these venture is negligible, rather non existent, so from where the hell did the query regarding this 'clashing with their work; arise from?
Second, how does this initiative hinder the civilian growth? Just because there are two cement factories instead of one, would it mean that the one being run by the civilians would automatically be at a loss? What happened to curbing monopolistic tendencies? Hello, capitalism!
Third, Pakistan dont have any governmental programs like 'U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs' which provide lifetime services to ex-soldiers. So the profits from these milbus is utilized for the welfare of veterans. i have posted a detailed reply regarding this elsewhere, let me see if i can find it.
Couldnt find it, so i'll try to put it down once again.
We cant afford the luxeries like that of the US military, but every country wants that its soldier gets the best equipment to fight with. The sarkari issues web equipment that a Pakistani soldier uses is of old vintage, the steel helmet is heavy and clumsy, the harness yokes are poor, the water bottle and the ammo pouch are more of a burden than being beneficial etc etc.
Moreover, while fighting an insurgency a soldier cant just rely on his rifle, he got to have an extra weapon in case he is captured/the weapon malfunctions (this the indians occupying Kashmir should know more than anybody else). So i being a commander would like that i should have an extra pistol with me when i am at Wana or NWA, i would also like that i should also carry a guud dagger with me. Now i being an officer might afford this and can purchase it out of my pocket, but a soldier might not be able to do this. Being an officer i might also purchase the fiber glass american helmet, a camel back waterbottle, best quality military boots etc, but soldier might not do it.
Now this all cant be made a standard, because one, not the entire Army is fighting insurgency, second changing something costing Rs 1 in an Army of 0.6 million would mean and additional budget of 6 lac!! Which the Nation cant afford. Already i can Pakistani and indian 'enthusiastic' feeling uncomfortable with our military expenditures.
Also, when we are in the field, our armies (Pak and Indian) dont have a very comfortable arrangement for soldiers to rest/sleep/accommodate etc. Pakistani Nation cant afford (like the US military) to provide every officer with a fan or heater in the field.
You know what is the standard issue for a commode in Asian militaries? i am sure no one would be knowing. It's a fringing stainless steel pot, the shape and size of your standard flower pot, fitted inside a wooden board. You lay it down, park your royal a$$ on it, align your a$$hole with the opening of that pot and then try to defecate. Atleast i had to place me undivided attention to make sure only one thing during the process, and that was, keeping my buttocks aligned with the pot to avoid any spill overs, and i hated it!
When i grew up to a rank where i could influence deceision making in the Army, i tried my level best to get the bosses to replace this 'machinery' with a standard water closet/commode, and guess what, when we calculated the cost of replacement, it came down to millions of rupee each year keeping in view the wear and tear and to make the commode platform mobile (so that it can be taken into the field). The end result, we were stuck with the same flower pot!
So what we do, military pumps in money (audited ofcourse) to the formations/units engaged in active fighting and let them purchase (or purchase it itself) items that can let a soldier perform better.
For example, units fighting in Swat, Wana, FATA were issued with knives and daggers. Their steel helmets were replaced with guud quality fiber glass helmets (for the record, you can purchase 10 Pakistani steel helmets in the cost of 1 american helmet), we changed their canteens/mess tins, we bought them better quality water bottles, we converted most of the standard toyota double cabins into bullet proof vehicles by doing local modification, all funded through the income from these adventures.
This led to following pros;
No effect on the budget
The items were issued as a one (may be two) time measure, without becoming a standard issue, thus reducing the burden on Ordinance and Supply Corps, and as the items were mostly purchased locally (from the local city), the Nation didnt has to bear the cost of contractors, transportation, stocking etc. MinDef was in the knowledge so we had nothing to worry about.
Items purchased by the units itself, thus making the units understand that these items are a luxury and if they are going to screw with them, they wont be getting any more of them i.e. they'll back with the old equipment, so they took better care of the items, thus increasing the shelf life of these items. Also the same items were passed onto the other unit that was replacing the previous one during an operation.
Now this is just one example. And only a portion of income was used. The major chunk of the income is utilized by the company itself for the welfare purposes, like free medical for soldiers, cost effective education for their children, assistance to Shaheeds etc. The remainder of the income is kept by the company like any other private civilian enterprise would do. What to you think Microsoft or Pepsi does with its income after they have serviced their debts and paid the employees? i wonder why gubbi sire didnt ask them about it?
And oh yes, these enterprises DO NOT pay the Army ANYTHING, as they are independent of the military. So these DOES NOT enhance the defence budget nor does it goes into the pockets of generals or adds up to the salaries of soldiers. They just has the term Fauji attached to them, nothing more. Only at occasions (as mentioned above), non essential equipment might be procured through the welfare funds (by cutting down the actual welfare budget).
So in short, these institutes ONLY provide benefits to the Nation and the country, help accommodate retirees (as mentioned in slide no 23, post # 6), assist the national economy through production and taxes (these organizations are the highest tax payers of Pakistan), and stand as a symbol of hard work, dedication and success to organizations like PIA, Pak Rail, WAPDA, Pak Steel etc that if we can make Rs 10 by investing Rs 1, they too could have earned even more had they not been sleeping, nibbling on their funds and embezzling every last penny that they receive.
And the....
Last word; Grow Up!
Abu, well it's guud to see another 'enthusiastic' wasting our bandwidth. As you have rightly pointed out, had Gubbi Sire read through the slides, he wouldnt have asked these questions, but then you know as it has has become our day job to answer ********, i wont mind replying him.
A quick reply can be;
The slide mentions the EXACT number of employees (both civilian and military) at these ventures. Anybody with an IQ of a frog can see that the military representation in these venture is negligible, rather non existent, so from where the hell did the query regarding this 'clashing with their work; arise from?
Second, how does this initiative hinder the civilian growth? Just because there are two cement factories instead of one, would it mean that the one being run by the civilians would automatically be at a loss? What happened to curbing monopolistic tendencies? Hello, capitalism!
Third, Pakistan dont have any governmental programs like 'U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs' which provide lifetime services to ex-soldiers. So the profits from these milbus is utilized for the welfare of veterans. i have posted a detailed reply regarding this elsewhere, let me see if i can find it.
Couldnt find it, so i'll try to put it down once again.
We cant afford the luxeries like that of the US military, but every country wants that its soldier gets the best equipment to fight with. The sarkari issues web equipment that a Pakistani soldier uses is of old vintage, the steel helmet is heavy and clumsy, the harness yokes are poor, the water bottle and the ammo pouch are more of a burden than being beneficial etc etc.
Moreover, while fighting an insurgency a soldier cant just rely on his rifle, he got to have an extra weapon in case he is captured/the weapon malfunctions (this the indians occupying Kashmir should know more than anybody else). So i being a commander would like that i should have an extra pistol with me when i am at Wana or NWA, i would also like that i should also carry a guud dagger with me. Now i being an officer might afford this and can purchase it out of my pocket, but a soldier might not be able to do this. Being an officer i might also purchase the fiber glass american helmet, a camel back waterbottle, best quality military boots etc, but soldier might not do it.
Now this all cant be made a standard, because one, not the entire Army is fighting insurgency, second changing something costing Rs 1 in an Army of 0.6 million would mean and additional budget of 6 lac!! Which the Nation cant afford. Already i can Pakistani and indian 'enthusiastic' feeling uncomfortable with our military expenditures.
Also, when we are in the field, our armies (Pak and Indian) dont have a very comfortable arrangement for soldiers to rest/sleep/accommodate etc. Pakistani Nation cant afford (like the US military) to provide every officer with a fan or heater in the field.
You know what is the standard issue for a commode in Asian militaries? i am sure no one would be knowing. It's a fringing stainless steel pot, the shape and size of your standard flower pot, fitted inside a wooden board. You lay it down, park your royal a$$ on it, align your a$$hole with the opening of that pot and then try to defecate. Atleast i had to place me undivided attention to make sure only one thing during the process, and that was, keeping my buttocks aligned with the pot to avoid any spill overs, and i hated it!
When i grew up to a rank where i could influence deceision making in the Army, i tried my level best to get the bosses to replace this 'machinery' with a standard water closet/commode, and guess what, when we calculated the cost of replacement, it came down to millions of rupee each year keeping in view the wear and tear and to make the commode platform mobile (so that it can be taken into the field). The end result, we were stuck with the same flower pot!
So what we do, military pumps in money (audited ofcourse) to the formations/units engaged in active fighting and let them purchase (or purchase it itself) items that can let a soldier perform better.
For example, units fighting in Swat, Wana, FATA were issued with knives and daggers. Their steel helmets were replaced with guud quality fiber glass helmets (for the record, you can purchase 10 Pakistani steel helmets in the cost of 1 american helmet), we changed their canteens/mess tins, we bought them better quality water bottles, we converted most of the standard toyota double cabins into bullet proof vehicles by doing local modification, all funded through the income from these adventures.
This led to following pros;
No effect on the budget
The items were issued as a one (may be two) time measure, without becoming a standard issue, thus reducing the burden on Ordinance and Supply Corps, and as the items were mostly purchased locally (from the local city), the Nation didnt has to bear the cost of contractors, transportation, stocking etc. MinDef was in the knowledge so we had nothing to worry about.
Items purchased by the units itself, thus making the units understand that these items are a luxury and if they are going to screw with them, they wont be getting any more of them i.e. they'll back with the old equipment, so they took better care of the items, thus increasing the shelf life of these items. Also the same items were passed onto the other unit that was replacing the previous one during an operation.
Now this is just one example. And only a portion of income was used. The major chunk of the income is utilized by the company itself for the welfare purposes, like free medical for soldiers, cost effective education for their children, assistance to Shaheeds etc. The remainder of the income is kept by the company like any other private civilian enterprise would do. What to you think Microsoft or Pepsi does with its income after they have serviced their debts and paid the employees? i wonder why gubbi sire didnt ask them about it?
And oh yes, these enterprises DO NOT pay the Army ANYTHING, as they are independent of the military. So these DOES NOT enhance the defence budget nor does it goes into the pockets of generals or adds up to the salaries of soldiers. They just has the term Fauji attached to them, nothing more. Only at occasions (as mentioned above), non essential equipment might be procured through the welfare funds (by cutting down the actual welfare budget).
So in short, these institutes ONLY provide benefits to the Nation and the country, help accommodate retirees (as mentioned in slide no 23, post # 6), assist the national economy through production and taxes (these organizations are the highest tax payers of Pakistan), and stand as a symbol of hard work, dedication and success to organizations like PIA, Pak Rail, WAPDA, Pak Steel etc that if we can make Rs 10 by investing Rs 1, they too could have earned even more had they not been sleeping, nibbling on their funds and embezzling every last penny that they receive.
And the....
Last word; Grow Up!
Donatello
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No, don't bother. They are Indians, the more you feed their tummies, the bigger they become.
Xeric
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You guys know me, i am not going to feed them, i'll even snatch what they had for their breakfast this morning. BTW, i have updated my previous post, and hope that after this, no (genuine) doubts would be left, however 'enthusiastic' are welcomed to yap on, it's been days since i had smacked some trolls
And ofourse Mods would be keeping a keen eye on this thread, for this being important.Similar threads
