PAF Wrecks Havoc On Millitants

[Rafi]

The evidence provided by india was so piss poor it would not have convicted anyone beyond a reasonable doubt anywhere in the world.

 

[muse]

Sir Judicial system did its work against Kasab, Its up to NIA and Govt. to give proof against masterminds of Mumbai attack. Pakistan rejected the previous one. Your judiciary failed to deliver as they cite not enough evidence whereas UN has declared HS, a terrorist. Its total failure of Pakistani investigation agency.

What do you expect us to do ? We are trying Diplomatic measures and took the case to UN. Judiciary don't approach UN. Govt. does. Judiciary is taking care of all the terrorists caught In India.

Jundal is in prison handed over by KSA. US cooperated with Headley case, Only Pakistan is not cooperating. No result after 4 years.
Afzal GUru has been Sentenced to Death.

PAF has to bombard the terrorists haven because Pakistani Judiciary ang Govt. couldn't even hang single terrorist that killed so many Pakistanis. What chance we have against the terrorists that killed Indians.

Only way is we asking US to attack those who attack us. Only US can do that. If we try, there will be war between India and Pakistan.

So yes, we have to instigate US to do our work while we help them in building Afghanistan.

You post reminds me the whole WMD in Iraq - because we have not any evidence, as yet, that the evidence does not exist, it does not mean that such evidence does not exist - somewhere.

Babu Ray, Making claims of culpability is counter productive, don't you see, especially since evidence hat will stand up in court does not exist -- you claim that such evidence must exist, it's just that Pakistan are not "producing" it -- this makes it seem that what you are attempting may have more to do propaganda and pressure than the pursuit of justice

 

[karan.1970]

Ok, seriously, how then can Indian get some sense of Justice? The whole US will act for us thing, is just fantasy - to get Justice or be seen to be getting Justice, our Indian friends should think how best to get Pakistan and Pakistani public opinion on their side - BTW one way that will not happen, is by calling for any Western power to be punitive - Pakistan don't play that!

This is a non starter because it assumes that people like Hafiz Saeed are truly non state actors. Frankly outside of Pakistanis (that too not all), no body else believes it. History has shown that every single non state actor claim of Pakistan has turned out to be false.. 1947, 65, Kargil.. etc etc.. So from all angles, getting Pakistan on its side against terrorists sounds like an oxymoron to most Indians..

But I guess we are going a bit off topic on this thread..

 

[KRAIT]

@Windjammer

Well Sir India is trying to build Afghanistan so that its people can live on their own land. We built houses, roads, schools, hospitals. Building dams and providing electricity. We want Afghan to return to their country and hence take a burden of you as you can then send them back while we try to bring peace in Afghanistan. Aren't we doing enough ?

By the way, if Pakistan hadn't supported Taliban, Osama would have hidden in some other country like Mali, and no war would have been brought at your door step. There wouldn't have been TTP at all.

 

[karan.1970]

You post reminds me the whole WMD in Iraq - because we have not any evidence, as yet, that the evidence does not exist, it does not mean that such evidence does not exist - somewhere.

Babu Ray, Making claims of culpability is counter productive, don't you see, especially since evidence hat will stand up in court does not exist -- you claim that such evidence must exist, it's just that Pakistan are not "producing" it -- this makes it seem that what you are attempting may have more to do propaganda and pressure than the pursuit of justice

Just thinking.. What evidence did Pakistan have against these alleged militants that have been killed by PAF bombings ? Why is the demand for evidence reserved for terrorists who target India?

 

[muse]

This is a non starter because it assumes that people like Hafiz Saeed are truly non state actors. Frankly outside of Pakistanis (that too not all), no body else believes it. History has shown that every single non state actor claim of Pakistan has turned out to be false.. 1947, 65, Kargil.. etc etc.. So from all angles, getting Pakistan on its side against terrorists sounds like an oxymoron to most Indians..

But I guess we are going a bit off topic on this thread..

OK I must insist that you put some genuine effort in your post -- "Nobody believes it" -- what then is there to talk about???????

Put some effort in crafting a position -- What is it that you think India should seek, Justice or Pressure?? - If pressure, then how do you think it's doing? After all HC has offered "words" has she not?? - If Justice, do you imagine that it may be delivered through the Indian media??

How then?? I think it's important not just for India but also Pakistan, to come to the truth of these events - however, playing it out in the media as the Indian have chosen to do, has made this objective a realistic or a distant proposition??

 

[KRAIT]

Not much -- so how will Justice be done or seen to be done?? Perhaps more emotion in the press and media?? Certainly more emotion will help the case of political movements and parties that may think they can do a better job??
Ok, seriously, how then can Indian get some sense of Justice? The whole US will act for us thing, is just fantasy - to get Justice or be seen to be getting Justice, our Indian friends should think how best to get Pakistan and Pakistani public opinion on their side - BTW one way that will not happen, is by calling for any Western power to be punitive - Pakistan don't play that!

How can we bring Pakistan and its people on our side. Since 1990s, Pakistan is sending terrorists. LeT, JeM all started in Pakistan. There were donation boxes in Pakistan to collect funds. Bomb blasts in Mumbai.
Whenever there was peace initiative a major attack happened in India. From Kargil to 26/11. haven't we tried Lahore Bus, after kargil and Parliament attack, Vajpayee reinitiated the dialogue. Then Aman ki Asha. We did many things for that and then we got 26/11.

Sir, people in Pakistan hate us for Kashmir, East Pakistan and now they blame us for BLA and TTP. They say we stop their water.

Pakistan don't play by any rule. That's why Only US has been able to take out terrorists in Pakistan. Both you and me know that. jaswant Singh said one thing right, when we were close to solution with Musharraf, the next govt. said they wouldn't have accepted it. So whom should we talk to . Civilian govt, PA or ISI

We can't. That's the problem. And we can't also with peace process. We have tried everything.

 

[Emmie]

@Windjammer

Well Sir India is trying to build Afghanistan so that its people can live on their own land. We built houses, roads, schools, hospitals. Building dams and providing electricity. We want Afghan to return to their country and hence take a burden of you as you can then send them back while we try to bring peace in Afghanistan. Aren't we doing enough ?

By the way, if Pakistan hadn't supported Taliban, Osama would have hidden in some other country like Mali, and no war would have been brought at your door step. There wouldn't have been TTP at all.

Meanwhile please entertain a couple of million Afghans in India!

 

[KRAIT]

Meanwhile please entertain a couple of million Afghans in India!

We already have Bangladeshis. We can't take Pakistan's headache. We are trying to build Afghanistan so that Millions can come back from Pakistan to Afghanistan. It will benefit you the most.

You post reminds me the whole WMD in Iraq - because we have not any evidence, as yet, that the evidence does not exist, it does not mean that such evidence does not exist - somewhere.Babu Ray, Making claims of culpability is counter productive, don't you see, especially since evidence hat will stand up in court does not exist -- you claim that such evidence must exist, it's just that Pakistan are not "producing" it -- this makes it seem that what you are attempting may have more to do propaganda and pressure than the pursuit of justice

Sir, the main accused is in Pakistan. Hafeez Saeed. For justice, we want him. Why won't Pakistan send him. They can't find evidence against him. Would you allow our investigators in Pakistan ? What should we do ?

If WMD reason failed, should we ignore all UN declarations ? hould we call of UN Military Group on LOC ?

Pursuit of justice means if you are helpless and neighbor is not cooperating or unable to tackle the real threat, not shutting down terrorist organizations declared by UN, one may have take desperate measures.especially a safe one. By asking Super Power to do the work as we can't do it in Pakistan. Justices has to be taken by hook or crook.

 

[muse]

How can we bring Pakistan and its people on our side. Since 1990s, Pakistan is sending terrorists. LeT, JeM all started in Pakistan. There were donation boxes in Pakistan to collect funds. Bomb blasts in Mumbai.
Whenever there was peace initiative a major attack happened in India. From Kargil to 26/11. haven't we tried Lahore Bus, after kargil and Parliament attack, Vajpayee reinitiated the dialogue. Then Aman ki Asha. We did many things for that and then we got 26/11.

Sir, people in Pakistan hate us for Kashmir, East Pakistan and now they blame us for BLA and TTP. They say we stop their water.

Pakistan don't play by any rule. That's why Only US has been able to take out terrorists in Pakistan. Both you and me know that. jaswant Singh said one thing right, when we were close to solution with Musharraf, the next govt. said they wouldn't have accepted it. So whom should we talk to . Civilian govt, PA or ISI

We can't. That's the problem. And we can't also with peace process. We have tried everything.

See KRAIT, this almost a replay of Karan's post - if you keep asserting that the other side is "not believable" - "does not play by the rules" and such, you really fail yourself, you fail your position -- Think it through, i the other side is all the things you assert, then what is the point of engaging them??

Think of it as a problem solving challenge - If the pressure thing is not going to work and it was never going to work in a democratically elected polity - What then will?

For the last 10 years or so, India have done themselves a great disservice, they have imagined that all they need to do is make demands, much like the US, and Pakistan's role is to deliver -- It worked for the US, for a while, they got their short term gain and lost big long term.

Here is the problem : How do we get Pakistan to be seen to be on the side of Justice - How do we make this investigation not just credible, but a vehicle to bring us together or at least closer -- does that make sense?? Now, can making accusations and media tamasha help us in our investigation????????

So the challenge is to craft an investigation which Pakistan do not see it as a vehicle to promote assertions of state sponsored terrorism, ut rather to craft the whole thing, as what it is, a crime

 

[karan.1970]

OK I must insist that you put some genuine effort in your post -- "Nobody believes it" -- what then is there to talk about???????

Frankly, very little as things stand. Because the ones talking from Pakistan have little or no power to change anything. And the ones who have the power, have no interests in talks.

Put some effort in crafting a position -- What is it that you think India should seek, Justice or Pressure?? -

To be brutally honest (and it may seem extremely cynical), neither.. Revenge probably will work just fine..

PS: Not on Pakistan or Pakistani citizens..

 

[muse]

Karan:

All emotion - entirely unworthy - most disappointing -- FEELINGS ARE LIKE SO MUCH WIND -THEY PASS

 

[KRAIT]

@muse

Sir, you talk of evidence, let me lay down some points.

1. When US said that Osama is in Paksitan, paksitani govt. said No he is not. Bhutto said he has died back in the days. US kept on serching having doubt on Pakistan. Osama was found under your nose. Your Intelligence agencies and Army missed Osama in Military town but finds TTP and BLA hiding in caves. You say all killed in PA and PAF action were terrorists. WHERE ARE THE PROOFS. Why didn't you ask for Judicial Trial. Innocent til proven Guilty.

2. US said Zawahri is in Paksitan. Pakistan govt. said no. We can see Operation Geronimo 2.0 as it might come true.

3. Pakistan blame India for backing TTP and BLA. WHere are the evidences ? All you have is so called "testimonies" of few captured terrorists. But when same terrorists said that only 2 were their fighters and rest 31 were civilians. You don't believe it. Neither you believe when they say they will attack India. WHERE ARE THE DAMN PROOFS ?

4. Coming to Media, your media blame India for Baluchistan, Kamra or Mehran attack but they also don't have any proofs ? Aren't they propagating hatred and anger among Pakistani people without having any proofs whatsoever. So I ask WHERE ARE THE PROOFS ?

5. Pakistan says Indian Consulates are used for Proxy war against them. WHERE ARE THE PROOFS ?

6. Pakistan say they links of India with BLA. They can find these links of terrorists who are hiding but can't find evidence against Hafeez Saeed which Indian Intelligence and US intelligence have. THEY ARE INSUFFICIENT ROOFS ?

7. US provided intelligence to Paksitani forces, the terrorists left the place and US saw that from their satellites. Will US believe Pakistan ?

I can go On and On. So tell me, why will anyone believe Pakistan. US and India are the last two nations who will believe Pakistan.

Lets talk about Judicial System, Intelligence Failure of Pakistan against terrorists attacking India and US, some in case of those killing Pakistani people too.

Lets talk evidence.

 

[muse]

KRAIT:


Easy on - I'm not asking or saying "where is the evidence" - What I am saying is that India and Pakistan need "evidence" to act - Pakistan claim that they have been unable to come up with evidence - India say you have find the evidence -- None of this is controversial is it? This is a more than less, accurate reflection of the positions, right?

If yes, lets proceed : The problem remains how to craft an investigation that focuses on the crime and those who may be involved, and which both sides can buy into, right??

If yes, then can media tamasha help or hinder??

 

[KRAIT]

KRAIT:
Easy on - I'm not asking or saying "where is the evidence" - What I am saying is that India and Pakistan need "evidence" to act - Pakistan claim that they have been unable to come up with evidence - India say you have find the evidence -- None of this is controversial is it? This is a more than less, accurate reflection of the positions, right?
If yes, lets proceed : The problem remains how to craft an investigation that focuses on the crime and those who may be involved, and which both sides can buy into, right??
If yes, then can media tamasha help or hinder??

I am easy but the word showing wrong mood of Mine. I agree with your posts as you are presenting rationality.

I agree with Media Tamasha bit too. But whenever we take one step forward, it follows by two step backwards.

Hope situation will improve. Sorry if I sounded harsh. I didn't want to.