PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[PAFAce]

i will tell you why i made the comment that paf piliots are better but not world class its because of the amount of experience they have in modern conflict zone. as to you sir i would like to ask how much experience does paf pilots have in bvr capable,precision guided and other technological advanced fights,because members here claimed that paf pilots were better or as goodas the us pilots. i am very sure they are well trained in these fields but they did not have the real conflict zone experience recently what the USAF,IAF<Israeli air force> posses.

Thanks for clarifying. You must excuse me if I seemed rude, but when someone says 'PAF pilots are not world class', my blood starts to boil. I agree with you, we do not have as much modern conflict experience. Frankly, I hope it remains that way because I do not desire wars. However, I do hope we get to develop experience in world class aerial excercises (Red Flag, Maple Flag etc.) once our Air Force's current upgradation is complete.

 

[Muradk]

Sir Murad, Could you shed some light on the "Article" Which started this Comparison? Would love to hear from someone of your stature.[/QUOTE



History can't be changed, What PAF achieved against IAF in 65 , 71 was not luck or we were there at the right time no no no it was all skills. After the war we knew as long we have a country like India next to us we have to keep our edge. Yes in the late 70s Indian Air Force with the help of Russia went through a giant leap, And we went through that leap in 1984.
We as Pakistani never went to the news or in media saying that why is India getting this or that on the other hand they were pissing in there pants when PAF just got the first 4 F-16s. IAF was not scared of the F-16s they were actually scared of the pilots sitting in a cockpits. ( Your Fighter is as good as you are ) In our case yes there was no doubt that we had made our name against fighting one of the best and winning every time. We went against the Indians we won they say differently who cares, we went against the Israelis and we won and at that time Israelis thought that they were the best if we had atleast 15 pilots on every side we would have kicked there ***** but we only had a very few including me when ever we went against a Israeli Fighter we took it down without and fancy moves. From that point of prospectus, I would say Indians were better pilots than the Israelis.
Since the 70s we had exercises with USA , UK, Turkey, China, and different Arab worlds. There is not even one exercise we lost it was not that our planes were better no our pilots were better, Our training was better. USA brought there ship carrier in the 70s went against 4 F-14 vs 3 F-6s, 1 Mirage we shot them down , we went against F-16 vs F-16 with the US they lost it every time Late AVM Rizzaq God Bless his soul he was a group Captian went against them all 3 dog fights Rizzaq punches the lights out of the American.
Why they were flying the same plane but our training was to good.
IAF talks about Red Flag I have seen it first hand its a big game set up for you to only coordinate with each other than dog fight.
The Indians showed what they were made of according to there OC Rathore ( Ok guys lets show the world what we are made of) and what happend IAF got shot every time not only that they shot most of there own planes Yeah I call that best of the best Our CCS when the US COAS came to Sargodha he flew with late COAS MUSAF and he was very surprised to see the way we fight and all the credit went to our CCS. Yes there is no doubt in my mind that our CCS is 100 times difficult than the IAF, other IAF, USA Top Gun.
We the old vets set up a system that our kids would go through hell before they clear or barley pass CCS, Ask Xman how difficult it is they treat you like a dog and when you come out from the other end of the tunnel you are pure gold regardless what plane you are flying.
IAF talks about BVR a missile coming towards you from 50 or more miles or Km you can screw the system of that missile in no time. Again I cant go into details what PAF has and what PAF doesn't. I only know that when afghan war started we had junior guys on cap who were CCS qualified and when they got into a fight there training took over and they came out victorious every time, and every time we were out numbered. So this shows that we have taken down , IAF, IAF Arab, USA, UK, Afghan , Russians. what else do we need to show you like I said before to my Indian friends its will always be the man behind the machine. It took IAF 1 week to go solo on the hawks at first they couldn't speak proper English and couldn't understand the British this just shows that IAF have forgotten what they were taught by the British IAF was born from RAF if I am not wrong. On the other hand it took us 2 missions to go solo on F-16s and the American were totally blown away by that and the way we integrated the info and used it and learned it. I landed the F-16 without the help of my IP who said you can't do it its to light and you will jump off the runway to his surprise and what he said " this was one of the best landings I have ever felt do it again". On the 4th day we had totally changed the dash one what the US gave us and made it to where we felt this is the right way I wish these kids who are making fun of us today would have seen there faces those pilots had 1000 plus and we had 5 to 6hrs and we went for a friendly match and got them the first times. WHY? Experience and the training we got from our IPs.
So in the end I can say only one thing because no matter what I say this chap will just keep coming on the forum to prove that they are the best if IAF thinks they are the best let them think now after there performance in RED FLAG the whole world knows what they are made of. SO I say wake up and start asking questions to IAF instead coming to a Pakistani forum and taking your anger out that your country men let you down.
I promise you we PAF had no hand in you guys loosing the red flag. or making fools out of your selves.

 

[Neo]

Excellent post Sir, thank you!
PAF is simply the best!

 

[PAFAce]

Sir Murad, Could you shed some light on the "Article" Which started this Comparison? Would love to hear from someone of your stature.[/QUOTE



History can't be changed, What PAF achieved against IAF in 65 , 71 was not luck or we were there at the right time no no no it was all skills. After the war we knew as long we have a country like India next to us we have to keep our edge. Yes in the late 70s Indian Air Force with the help of Russia went through a giant leap, And we went through that leap in 1984.
We as Pakistani never went to the news or in media saying that why is India getting this or that on the other hand they were pissing in there pants when PAF just got the first 4 F-16s. IAF was not scared of the F-16s they were actually scared of the pilots sitting in a cockpits. ( Your Fighter is as good as you are ) In our case yes there was no doubt that we had made our name against fighting one of the best and winning every time. We went against the Indians we won they say differently who cares, we went against the Israelis and we won and at that time Israelis thought that they were the best if we had atleast 15 pilots on every side we would have kicked there ***** but we only had a very few including me when ever we went against a Israeli Fighter we took it down without and fancy moves. From that point of prospectus, I would say Indians were better pilots than the Israelis.
Since the 70s we had exercises with USA , UK, Turkey, China, and different Arab worlds. There is not even one exercise we lost it was not that our planes were better no our pilots were better, Our training was better. USA brought there ship carrier in the 70s went against 4 F-14 vs 3 F-6s, 1 Mirage we shot them down , we went against F-16 vs F-16 with the US they lost it every time Late AVM Rizzaq God Bless his soul he was a group Captian went against them all 3 dog fights Rizzaq punches the lights out of the American.
Why they were flying the same plane but our training was to good.
IAF talks about Red Flag I have seen it first hand its a big game set up for you to only coordinate with each other than dog fight.
The Indians showed what they were made of according to there OC Rathore ( Ok guys lets show the world what we are made of) and what happend IAF got shot every time not only that they shot most of there own planes Yeah I call that best of the best Our CCS when the US COAS came to Sargodha he flew with late COAS MUSAF and he was very surprised to see the way we fight and all the credit went to our CCS. Yes there is no doubt in my mind that our CCS is 100 times difficult than the IAF, other IAF, USA Top Gun.
We the old vets set up a system that our kids would go through hell before they clear or barley pass CCS, Ask Xman how difficult it is they treat you like a dog and when you come out from the other end of the tunnel you are pure gold regardless what plane you are flying.
IAF talks about BVR a missile coming towards you from 50 or more miles or Km you can screw the system of that missile in no time. Again I cant go into details what PAF has and what PAF doesn't. I only know that when afghan war started we had junior guys on cap who were CCS qualified and when they got into a fight there training took over and they came out victorious every time, and every time we were out numbered. So this shows that we have taken down , IAF, IAF Arab, USA, UK, Afghan , Russians. what else do we need to show you like I said before to my Indian friends its will always be the man behind the machine. It took IAF 1 week to go solo on the hawks at first they couldn't speak proper English and couldn't understand the British this just shows that IAF have forgotten what they were taught by the British IAF was born from RAF if I am not wrong. On the other hand it took us 2 missions to go solo on F-16s and the American were totally blown away by that and the way we integrated the info and used it and learned it. I landed the F-16 without the help of my IP who said you can't do it its to light and you will jump off the runway to his surprise and what he said " this was one of the best landings I have ever felt do it again". On the 4th day we had totally changed the dash one what the US gave us and made it to where we felt this is the right way I wish these kids who are making fun of us today would have seen there faces those pilots had 1000 plus and we had 5 to 6hrs and we went for a friendly match and got them the first times. WHY? Experience and the training we got from our IPs.
So in the end I can say only one thing because no matter what I say this chap will just keep coming on the forum to prove that they are the best if IAF thinks they are the best let them think now after there performance in RED FLAG the whole world knows what they are made of. SO I say wake up and start asking questions to IAF instead coming to a Pakistani forum and taking your anger out that your country men let you down.
I promise you we PAF had no hand in you guys loosing the red flag. or making fools out of your selves.

Every time I read a post like this, or speak with a vet talk about his experiences in Pak Army of PAF, all I want to do is get on a flight and come to Pakistan. As men, we all have the desire to be the 'best of the best', but as Pakistanis we are lucky to actually have the capability to own that title, definitely when it comes to the Air Force.

Thank you sir. Thank you very much.

 

[blain2]

Gents,

A while back I had the privilege of chatting with one of the original USAF Instructor Pilots (IPs) who were responsible for training personnel of foreign airforces on the F-16 weapon system and he trained a lot of foreign cadres including those from Pakistan Air Force. I have saved the exchange between himself and myself as well as his comments on another forum where he responded to the usual PAF bashing. This IP had 4000 plus hours and 600 combat hours (point being this guy is not a joke and is as authentic as they come).

Take a read. One thing to note, all his references to IAF here are for Israeli Air Force now commonly referred to as IDFAF:

MuradK sahib may have been his student as he got to work with some of our earliest ones. Needless to say, this gentleman was one of the most polite and professional pilot that I have had the pleasure of listening to on the USAF side.

Take a read:

My student from the PAF cadre might well have risen to higher rank.

At the time, he was either a senior Captain or a Major (I suspect major). <<Blain: I had asked him about a specific officer>>

He was about 6 feet or 6 feet 1 inch tall, much larger than me. Was from the northern area of Pakistan. We did not use first names, so no help there.

He had served as an instructor for several of the Arab states, and had some great war stories.

***************

I stand by my opinion- the PAF were right up there with the European and IAF folks.

We may have seen the best of the best, but no matter. They were the ones that would go home and teach all the other PAF pilots. We felt very positive about them.

Keep on keeping on ....

************************

Two good points.

Meanwhile, back in the Pentagon, USAF is developing it's own weapons to meet the 'threat' that faces we Americans today.

Sad to say, but ROK's capability to use any of the neat gadgets being developed and tested here at Eglin is not a consideration. So sorry, but we are looking out for number one. Let the other suckers develop their own weapons, in short.

The cool stuff we have now is easy for ROK AF or anyone else if we provide them the p-codes for GPS. Hitting a cave is neat, but I personally don't think that will win the war. 'nuff on that.

Hate to get political in the sense of weapon systems we (USA) provide to other folks, but I shall.
***********
We must be careful about we provide to other countries unless they have proven time and again that they are trustworthy. I seem to recall that Israel 'jumped on' the chance to scarf up the F-16's we had signed a contract for with Iran. Hmmmmmmmm. I was an instructor pilot for both the Israeli cadre and the Pakistan cadre. Loved them both. Unfortunately, USA had a falling -out with the Pakis, hence no more Vipers for a long time.

***************************

xxxx has a very, very good point.

Training the first Pakistani dudes back in the early 80's was interesting. They were more concerned with tactics versus the Mirage 2000 than the Flanker or Fulcrum. wonder why, hmmmmmm?

OTOH, USAF and USN and USMC actually looks at the worst-case scenario as far as training goes. And as someone pointed out, I wouldn't take the exchange ratio over Iraq real serious.

As pointed out, the "A" for the Raptor is a lot of political B.S. Then again, the Viper was designed as the Light Weight Fighter. Seems when you have really great manuevering capability and good lift-to-drag, then hauling around a few bombs is no big deal. Go review the Scotland bomb comp back in 1981 to see what I am talking about.

The cannon is really cheap, and effective, if you wind up in a knife fight in a telephone booth. OTOH, hard to maintain the Low Obs crapola, and it does add comlexity/weight/etc. Still in all, ask the F-4C and F-4D troops what they thot about not having a gun.

The JSF looks to me to be the Viper follow-on. The one I saw and crawled all over three weeks ago had "air-to-mud" written all over it.

We really need to move this stuff to the Air Power forum, huh?

out

*********************************

I happened to have personally checked out the Pakistani pilots scheduled for those first Vipers. Way back in early 80's.

A really super group and we were all fighting to get in on the delivery missions. Then politics raised its ugly head.

The Pakistani pilots were outstanding in every respect. We had zero problems checking them out, as they had flown several aircraft types as instructor pilots in various mid-east countries.

I shall not compare them to those from other nations we helped, so don't ask on this forum.

Suffice it to say, the Pakistani Vipers were not basic Foreign Military Sales jets, and there was not a lot of $$$ provided by the U.S. other than a small amount for admin. That's best I remember.

After all these years, I am personally glad they got the jets they paid for.

out,

**********************************


With all due respect to the many folks I flew with and taught, a few country's airmen stood out. More the individual than the country.

This is a personal opinion, tho a few of my contemporaries will likely agree.

I was able to fly with as a student or an instructor with the original Viper outfits except the Belgians. My class had two Danes, three Norwegians and five Americans. Our lone Dutchman was flying with us, but a class ahead (it is true - he wore wooden flying boots!! heh heh). God bless Barney, he was a super chap and used that joke when he graduated.

I flew with the Pakis and the Israelis in the Viper as an instructor. Same for the Egyptians.

As an IP and squadron toad in other jets, I flew with Viet Namese, Iranians, Jordanians, Brits and Cannucks.

We did not see any great tactics by the IAF. They were damned good at BFM, but about average in ACM. The Pakis were equal in BFM and maybe a bit better in ACM.

By far, the NATO folks 'fit in' better with USAF doctrine and tactics. They could also really fly the machines!!! One of my Deuce IP's was a Brit, and he could do things I couldn't dream of.

I won't rank the country's, but I would have to give a nod to the NATO troops overall. Probably 'cause we all trained together for WW3 over Central Europe.

**************************************

If you are not politically-incorrect, do not read the rest of this post.
*****************

In the very early years of the Viper, we trained all the EPG folks, plus the IAF, Pakistani and Egyptian folks. Also handled USAF National Guard and Reserve units.

I flew with Pakistani folks during my pilot training back in 1965-65. 16-17 years or so later, I flew with accomplished Pakistani fighter pilots that formed the core of their Viper force.

The original cast at Hill will all tell you (ALL) that the Pakistani folks were more aggressive than the IAF folks we had. Same-oh versus the Egyptian folks.

xxxxxx's question is a great one!

It may not be true today, but except for one of the original Pakistani Viper cadre, all had been instructors all over the mideast. They kept reminding us that they were Muslims, but not Arabs. My own student had taught various Arab folks and had great war stories. For example, when the Emir's grandson screwed up and claimed it was Allah's will, he threw the bullshit flag and told the yute, "OK, then we'll let the plane crash!".

I can't believe that the Pakistani spirit and elan and professionalism has deterioated all that much. But having no current intell from anyone, I can't make an unequivocal statement. <<Blain's comment: Here he was responding to someone claiming that Pakistanis do not have the training and equipment any longer.>>

All I know is that I would lead or follow any of the ones we had at Hill in that cadre.

If anyone else here has ever flown with a Pakistani Viper pilot in an actual Viper, please chime in or continue to speculate.

**************************

Let's review the bidding........

About half of the Viper cadre at Hill had two or three combat tours in 'nam. One of my students had a Mig kill. One of my IAF students had one or more mig kills and I have a neat photo from his camera here in the war room.

One of my IAF students was on the Iraqi nuke raid, then died on the Columbia.

I never saw a Mig over 'nam. The Double Ugly folks did their job and we simply blew up stuff dodged SAM's and AAA and scooted home.

I have many more combat hours than the IAF folks from Yom Kippur or the 67 blitz. Take that to the bank. I flew with them and we talked.

The EPG folks were indistinguishable from the USAF for the most part, and in some arenas were better than we were, particularly in radar intercepts.

The IAF folks and the Pakistani folks were so close, that except for the uniforms, you couldn't tell who you were hasslin' with.

We should all bear in mind that only the best folks were attending the upgrade courses at Hill back in the early 80's. So we did not get a chance to see the run-of-the-mill pilots from the EPG, IAF or Pakistan. We did get a chance to see the average folks from the USAF Reserve and Guard.

My checkout group was comprised of two Danes, three Norwegians and five USAF troops (3 Double Ugly guys and two SLUF drivers). We studied hard, planned and flew together and you couldn't tell where anyone came from.

************

I once again beg all to leave politics out of these forums. Or religion. Or ethnic origin.

The people here that have flown in real jets and in real combat share a bond that most of you shall never understand. And that includes some of us who were "enemies".

We all did our duty, and when all was said and done, we went home and harbored no personal animosity.

that's all I am gonna say....

 

[superbikez]

@ MuradK

AWESOME POST i have neva seen such awesome post on this forum!!

 

[ahmeddsid]

Sir Murad, Its an Honour with you having replied to My Post and Its an insightful reply Sir.

I feel the men behind the machine matter, but one more doubt, what happens when atleast a 100 F22s take on the the F16 fleet of Pakistan? I mean doesnt the Technology come into the fore Sir?? I always believed the PAF was and is better trained. But quite frankly Sir, isnt there a limit to what training can do? Doesnt technology ever come into the fore? I am asking because I want to know all this from the best possible sources and not from Fanboys, be it IAF of PAF. And Please do tell me about the article stating that PAF Mirages are better than IAF Mirage 2000s. God Speed

 

[blain2]

Sir Murad, Its an Honour with you having replied to My Post and Its an insightful reply Sir.

I feel the men behind the machine matter, but one more doubt, what happens when atleast a 100 F22s take on the the F16 fleet of Pakistan? I mean doesnt the Technology come into the fore Sir?? I always believed the PAF was and is better trained. But quite frankly Sir, isnt there a limit to what training can do? Doesnt technology ever come into the fore? I am asking because I want to know all this from the best possible sources and not from Fanboys, be it IAF of PAF. And Please do tell me about the article stating that PAF Mirages are better than IAF Mirage 2000s. God Speed

Is anyone suggesting here to go up with aircraft from vastly different generations like the 3rd and 5th (F-16 and F-22)?

Also what article are you referring to in reference to Mirage 2000?

 

[Indicom]

Sir Murad, Could you shed some light on the "Article" Which started this Comparison? Would love to hear from someone of your stature.[/QUOTE



History can't be changed, What PAF achieved against IAF in 65 , 71 was not luck or we were there at the right time no no no it was all skills. After the war we knew as long we have a country like India next to us we have to keep our edge. Yes in the late 70s Indian Air Force with the help of Russia went through a giant leap, And we went through that leap in 1984.
We as Pakistani never went to the news or in media saying that why is India getting this or that on the other hand they were pissing in there pants when PAF just got the first 4 F-16s. IAF was not scared of the F-16s they were actually scared of the pilots sitting in a cockpits. ( Your Fighter is as good as you are ) In our case yes there was no doubt that we had made our name against fighting one of the best and winning every time. We went against the Indians we won they say differently who cares, we went against the Israelis and we won and at that time Israelis thought that they were the best if we had atleast 15 pilots on every side we would have kicked there ***** but we only had a very few including me when ever we went against a Israeli Fighter we took it down without and fancy moves. From that point of prospectus, I would say Indians were better pilots than the Israelis.
Since the 70s we had exercises with USA , UK, Turkey, China, and different Arab worlds. There is not even one exercise we lost it was not that our planes were better no our pilots were better, Our training was better. USA brought there ship carrier in the 70s went against 4 F-14 vs 3 F-6s, 1 Mirage we shot them down , we went against F-16 vs F-16 with the US they lost it every time Late AVM Rizzaq God Bless his soul he was a group Captian went against them all 3 dog fights Rizzaq punches the lights out of the American.
Why they were flying the same plane but our training was to good.
IAF talks about Red Flag I have seen it first hand its a big game set up for you to only coordinate with each other than dog fight.
The Indians showed what they were made of according to there OC Rathore ( Ok guys lets show the world what we are made of) and what happend IAF got shot every time not only that they shot most of there own planes Yeah I call that best of the best Our CCS when the US COAS came to Sargodha he flew with late COAS MUSAF and he was very surprised to see the way we fight and all the credit went to our CCS. Yes there is no doubt in my mind that our CCS is 100 times difficult than the IAF, other IAF, USA Top Gun.
We the old vets set up a system that our kids would go through hell before they clear or barley pass CCS, Ask Xman how difficult it is they treat you like a dog and when you come out from the other end of the tunnel you are pure gold regardless what plane you are flying.
IAF talks about BVR a missile coming towards you from 50 or more miles or Km you can screw the system of that missile in no time. Again I cant go into details what PAF has and what PAF doesn't. I only know that when afghan war started we had junior guys on cap who were CCS qualified and when they got into a fight there training took over and they came out victorious every time, and every time we were out numbered. So this shows that we have taken down , IAF, IAF Arab, USA, UK, Afghan , Russians. what else do we need to show you like I said before to my Indian friends its will always be the man behind the machine. It took IAF 1 week to go solo on the hawks at first they couldn't speak proper English and couldn't understand the British this just shows that IAF have forgotten what they were taught by the British IAF was born from RAF if I am not wrong. On the other hand it took us 2 missions to go solo on F-16s and the American were totally blown away by that and the way we integrated the info and used it and learned it. I landed the F-16 without the help of my IP who said you can't do it its to light and you will jump off the runway to his surprise and what he said " this was one of the best landings I have ever felt do it again". On the 4th day we had totally changed the dash one what the US gave us and made it to where we felt this is the right way I wish these kids who are making fun of us today would have seen there faces those pilots had 1000 plus and we had 5 to 6hrs and we went for a friendly match and got them the first times. WHY? Experience and the training we got from our IPs.
So in the end I can say only one thing because no matter what I say this chap will just keep coming on the forum to prove that they are the best if IAF thinks they are the best let them think now after there performance in RED FLAG the whole world knows what they are made of. SO I say wake up and start asking questions to IAF instead coming to a Pakistani forum and taking your anger out that your country men let you down.
I promise you we PAF had no hand in you guys loosing the red flag. or making fools out of your selves.

Well,your post is a bit of drum beating for the PAF,with no malice,the" solo on the Hawk"part is wrong,plus I'll tell u,IAF went solo on most of the ACs including the MKIs on the second or third sortie(perhaps Russkie ACs were very much known to the IAF)I say again,no Indians have ever said PAF pilots are not world class but assuming(believing)that they are no.1 is also not the way one needs to see.It's the man behind the machine as you say,today's age it's also the machine that matters more,the man in any way has to get accustomed with the machine it flies,but the tech involved in the machine nullifies the edge a superior pilot might have over the slightly inferior one.Your comments on Red Flag also pours venom on IAF capabilities,to inform you off hand,IAF 's performance execution was 90% which was the best among all,rest you may believe Col.Terry Fornoff if you want to,even there he agrees the proffessionalism of the IAF pilots.But since you da man who have actually been there done that!I will not increase my post here,we can only solve the dispute by putting everything in maidan -e-jang which is again is a call for doomsday.

 

[ahmeddsid]

Is anyone suggesting here to go up with aircraft from vastly different generations like the 3rd and 5th (F-16 and F-22)?

Also what article are you referring to in reference to Mirage 2000?

"Thus, while on paper PAF is flying ancient Mirages that were bought second hand from the Australians, when one actually examines any such model, one is surprised at how extensively they have been rebuilt &#8211; almost from scratch and the hardware is extremely lethal. Other than the secretive BVR AAMs, the PAF has extensively incorporated the strike element into its Mirages, at a level only matched by the IAF&#8217;s Mirage-2000s and Su-30 FLANKERs, and even then, some of the equipment has no IAF equivalent."

Sorry I should have put the question like this, Is the PAF Mirages on par with the IAF Mirage 2000s and SU30s technologically???

And About the F22 Question, I wanted to know how much technology counts and How much training counts, thats why I put the question forward to Sir Murad. I want to know from an ace, who knows so much more than the Indians and Pakistanis slugging it out on the Internet.

 

[blain2]

"Thus, while on paper PAF is flying ancient Mirages that were bought second hand from the Australians, when one actually examines any such model, one is surprised at how extensively they have been rebuilt – almost from scratch and the hardware is extremely lethal. Other than the secretive BVR AAMs, the PAF has extensively incorporated the strike element into its Mirages, at a level only matched by the IAF’s Mirage-2000s and Su-30 FLANKERs, and even then, some of the equipment has no IAF equivalent."

Sorry I should have put the question like this, Is the PAF Mirages on par with the IAF Mirage 2000s and SU30s technologically???

And About the F22 Question, I wanted to know how much technology counts and How much training counts, thats why I put the question forward to Sir Murad. I want to know from an ace, who knows so much more than the Indians and Pakistanis slugging it out on the Internet.

Read what has been stated carefully. These aircraft which are 3 plus decades old have been glassed, upgraded for PGM delivery, are capable of firing BVRAAMs, so from that standpoint, they are very current in terms of their capabilities. Do you recall the immense pride you guys take in your Bison upgrades? The Bison airframe is even older than our Mirages. Yes new avionics and capabilities incorporated under the ROSE programs have given the Mirage fleet a very current capability.

 

[Vinod2070]

With due respect to Mr. Muradk, I think it was a good pep talk.

While you presented some good facts, there was a fair bit of mixing of opinions with the facts. Also the opinions about the red flag and 1971 war are not borne out by facts.

 

[Vinod2070]

I can confirm this:

Thanks for the info. Any links?

It appears to be the opinion of one person that didn't turn out to have any real basis in the end.

The Iraqi fighters simply had no chance. They were flying blind with no ground support from day-1. Most of them chose not to fight and if they took to the sky they preferred to either remain away form the combat zone or headed to Iran.

 

[ahmeddsid]

With due respect to Mr. Muradk, I think it was a good pep talk.

While you presented some good facts, there was a fair bit of mixing of opinions with the facts. Also the opinions about the red flag and 1971 war are not borne out by facts.

I heard the Sukhois were flying without Radar and other equipment on off mode so that the US couldnt spy around. Not only that the French were also snooping around the MKIs and basically the USA invited IAF to spy on it. Can you shed some light?

 

[ahmeddsid]

Read what has been stated carefully. These aircraft which are 3 plus decades old have been glassed, upgraded for PGM delivery, are capable of firing BVRAAMs, so from that standpoint, they are very current in terms of their capabilities. Do you recall the immense pride you guys take in your Bison upgrades? The Bison airframe is even older than our Mirages. Yes new avionics and capabilities incorporated under the ROSE programs have given the Mirage fleet a very current capability.

I would like to hear the Reply from Sir Murad.