PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[blain2]

With due respect to Mr. Muradk, I think it was a good pep talk.

Quite similar to what we heard recently from your side "Ok guys lets show the world what we are made of".

Muradk's comments are mostly in response to this "IAF and MKI - God's gift to aviation" sort of a complex that many here evince. While we appreciate the improvements made by the IAF in recent years, our side is not sitting idly by. This is fairly difficult for most fans of the IAF to understand as they are mesmerized by the recent PR offensive around the abilities of the IAF and the MKI. To most professionals, that is all fine and dandy, but in the end, decent technology and command over that technology is still the game changer. This means that while we do not underestimate the IAF, we have operated against your air force, we also have a much better appreciation than anyone else as to where your weaknesses and strengths are.

 

[blain2]

I would like to hear the Reply from Sir Murad.

He will reply when he wishes to. You can also pm him if you would like to keep the discussion between yourself and him.

 

[ahmeddsid]

He will reply when he wishes to. You can also pm him if you would like to keep the discussion between yourself and him.

Yes I know he will reply when he wants to, I am like something of a Fan of his, I mean who wouldn't be enamored by his Achievements! I am waiting for his reply Its People like him who makes this Forum so awesome!

 

[Vinod2070]

Quite similar to what we heard recently from your side "Ok guys lets show the world what we are made of".

Muradk's comments are mostly in response to this "IAF and MKI - God's gift to aviation" sort of a complex that many here evince. While we appreciate the improvements made by the IAF in recent years, our side is not sitting idly by. This is fairly difficult for most fans of the IAF to understand as they are mesmerized by the recent PR offensive around the abilities of the IAF and the MKI. To most professionals, that is all fine and dandy, but in the end, decent technology and command over that technology is still the game changer. This means that while we do not underestimate the IAF, we have operated against your air force, we also have a much better appreciation than anyone else as to where your weaknesses and strengths are.

The comment by the IAF commander at red flag was obviously a pep talk, to boost the morale of his charges.

No serious person would underestimate the Pakistani military or it's air force. I disagree with the implicit assumption that man to man a Pakistani would be naturally better than an Indian or vice versa. It is not borne out by the facts. I like to go by facts and not opinions and rhetoric.

So the assumption here that PAF fighter pilot is better than his Indian counterpart can only be proven either in a war or in a realistic war game scenario involving both. Not by the opinions of someone who is an interested party to boot.

There has been the same assumption by many members about the respective special forces and it was again not borne out by the facts when a realistic competition was held in South Africa.

Both special forces did very well, better than most developed countries but Indian forces trumped Pakistani forces there. The results were recently shared on some thread here and Indian forces came out tops on all but one parameter.

You still had some stupid internet warrior claiming the Indian special forces were incompetent in the Mumbai blasts thread!

 

[Sgt Automatic]

The comment by the IAF commander at red flag was obviously a pep talk, to boost the morale of his charges.

No serious person would underestimate the Pakistani military or it's air force. I disagree with the implicit assumption that man to man a Pakistani would be naturally better than an Indian or vice versa. It is not borne out by the facts. I like to go by facts and not opinions and rhetoric.

So the assumption here that PAF fighter pilot is better than his Indian counterpart can only be proven either in a war or in a realistic war game scenario involving both. Not by the opinions of someone who is an interested party to boot.

There has been the same assumption by many members about the respective special forces and it was again not borne out by the facts when a realistic competition was held in South Africa.

Both special forces did very well, better than most developed countries but Indian forces trumped Pakistani forces there. The results were recently shared on some thread here and Indian forces came out tops on all but one parameter.

You still had some stupid internet warrior claiming the Indian special forces were incompetent in the Mumbai blasts thread!

Although you state facts, but none the less you keep away the details. Very cheap move worse than fine print in my opinion.

You are correct about the Indian forces doing better than the Pakistani forces, but please keep in mind that India had been there before but that was the first time Pakistan was participating. Also note that not surprizingly the South Africans came out on top!

I wonder where else you keep away from the important details...

About the Red Flag, every one found out that IAF had matured quite a bit from the past (65, 71) and were very professional. Also their high tech aircrafts from Russia are widely accepted as one of the best aircraft in the world. But if look at some details, the USAF pilots participating in Cope India, had very little flight hours under there belt compared to the Indian officers who were way more experienced. None they less a professional force.

 

[Sgt Automatic]

sorry double post

 

[ahmeddsid]

In the red flag werent the MKIs running blind? I mean no radars etc! I hear they were switched off so USAF and other couldnt snoop, still the French were waiting for the Indians to go in for a kill so they could snoop better. Someone shed some light on this? I posted the same thing and it got deleted by Blain, dont know why! We are discussing IAF vs PAF and this falls into the parameter to clear up some stuff.

 

[Vinod2070]

ahmeddsid, there is a thread on the red flag exercises. You can find most of your answers on that thread.

 

[Vinod2070]

Although you state facts, but none the less you keep away the details. Very cheap move worse than fine print in my opinion.

You are correct about the Indian forces doing better than the Pakistani forces, but please keep in mind that India had been there before but that was the first time Pakistan was participating. Also note that not surprizingly the South Africans came out on top!

I wonder where else you keep away from the important details...

About the Red Flag, every one found out that IAF had matured quite a bit from the past (65, 71) and were very professional. Also their high tech aircrafts from Russia are widely accepted as one of the best aircraft in the world. But if look at some details, the USAF pilots participating in Cope India, had very little flight hours under there belt compared to the Indian officers who were way more experienced. None they less a professional force.

Well, I would expect more civility than that as this is perhaps our first exchange.

I agree that India had been there before and it may have provided an element of some advantage. How large that advantage would be anybody's guess. Also to attribute the South African victory to just being the hosts would not be correct in my opinion. The parameters of the competition seemed to be quite fair. Let me know if you did not think so and why.

Again Red flag may have proved something. I opened a thread on 1971 air war to understand why some Pakistanis claim that they won the air war. I did not find any objective reasons to believe that either.

Even about 1965, I believe there are many myths floating around. Mey be we will get a chance to discuss that in some other thread.

Till then...

 

[x_man]

PAF Vs IAF: Why are we discussing this again a millionth time? Is there a doubt about it? The last two times the two airforces met , the smaller force gave the bigger force a much harder time against all odds…Any doubt about that ????.....So many neutral International writers have written about it number of times…. I don’t want to waste my efforts again about a fact that is not even a disputable except with few of our friends from across the border….Get over with it now…

I know one thing, if PAF had a kind of an effort that IAF had since independence in terms of number of aircrafts , airfields, force multipliers, infrastructures etc etc , we would have roasted the opponent by now…..These are not mere words…THINK ABOUT IT !!!

O Good GOD, you guys are comparing and thumping chests by comparing yourself with an airforce that is much much smaller than yours in every possible way and you couldnt even handle her….Try picking someone of your own size and then see where you stand ….ta ta

 

[ahmeddsid]

PAF Vs IAF: Why are we discussing this again a millionth time? Is there a doubt about it? The last two times the two airforces met , the smaller force gave the bigger force a much harder time against all odds…Any doubt about that ????.....So many neutral International writers have written about it number of times…. I don’t want to waste my efforts again about a fact that is not even a disputable except with few of our friends from across the border….Get over with it now…

I know one thing, if PAF had a kind of an effort that IAF had since independence in terms of number of aircrafts , airfields, force multipliers, infrastructures etc etc , we would have roasted the opponent by now…..These are not mere words…THINK ABOUT IT !!!

O Good GOD, you guys are comparing and thumping chests by comparing yourself with an airforce that is much much smaller than yours in every possible way and you couldnt even handle her….Try picking someone of your own size and then see where you stand ….ta ta

Sir this comparison thread was started by a Pakistani member by publishing a trumped up Article!

 

[Rafael]

PAF Vs IAF: Why are we discussing this again a millionth time? Is there a doubt about it? The last two times the two airforces met , the smaller force gave the bigger force a much harder time against all odds…Any doubt about that ????.....So many neutral International writers have written about it number of times…. I don’t want to waste my efforts again about a fact that is not even a disputable except with few of our friends from across the border….Get over with it now…

I know one thing, if PAF had a kind of an effort that IAF had since independence in terms of number of aircrafts , airfields, force multipliers, infrastructures etc etc , we would have roasted the opponent by now…..These are not mere words…THINK ABOUT IT !!!

O Good GOD, you guys are comparing and thumping chests by comparing yourself with an airforce that is much much smaller than yours in every possible way and you couldnt even handle her….Try picking someone of your own size and then see where you stand ….ta ta

a perfect answer, i would say.

 

[Vinod2070]

Why are we discussing this again a millionth time? Is there a doubt about it? The last two times the two airforces met , the smaller force gave the bigger force a much harder time against all odds…Any doubt about that ????

Much of what you are saying is pure myths.

Do go through the thread on the 1971 air war and prove how it was Pakistan that emerged better.

I have seen just 3 things from Pakistani side about this: Some Youtube video of a BBC interview where some pilots are making some claims on their airbase, some quotes by a USAF general who was an interested party and was proven to have been biased on that thread. One more is supposedly some random claim by some USAF senior person to someone's uncle that Sargodha is the best training institute for air force!

Do present if you have something beyond that.

 

[ahmeddsid]

Please dont Bring in Chuck Yeager! He Was an Advisor to the PAF, If he doesnt support the PAF it means he was a FAILURE, If PAF Looses a War it means Chuck Lost it

Lastly, I think PAF is a Highly Trained and Effective and Efficient Fighting Force Capable of Meeting all needs imposed upon it. The IAF is Not bad and Has the Qualitative advantage as of now with some Good Planes and Technology. Who knows what the Future holds in Store

 

[x_man]

Much of what you are saying is pure myths.

Do go through the thread on the 1971 air war and prove how it was Pakistan that emerged better.

IAFs doctrine was based on achieving Air Superiority and PAFs was defensive while creating a Favourable Air Situation in time and space….The very fact that IAF couldn’t achieve Air Superiority and PAF kept giving them tough opposition till the end answers this question…

While stats and numbers cannot be ruled out but they provide nothing in the context of achieving ones objective…For example to create a fav air sit at a certain time , if one airforce loses 8 fighters but still achieves the larger objective, it translates into that it did her job….

Don’t chase the numbers… they can be very deceptive…Look at the overall task that an air is designed to do…..If it couldn’t achieve that despite low attrition , its still a failure on her part…

While 71 was a political failure for us, PAF managed to deny IAFs Air Superiority and kept flying in her own airspace and provided the opposition that was required out of her….