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PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

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sir, moscow asusual nicly put but i would like to ask.

1--iaf best fighter su30mki are still new and iaf does not have experience in flying sukhois because they always chose mig fighters.
its takes 10-15 years to master such technically advanced jets in that case paf has superiority.

here i would like to ask isnt it same case for jf-17 and f-16 and j-10
2--
its difficult for iaf to get complete air dominance because of not the paf fighters but better (better compared to who? india or themselve in past)radar techs and g2a sams that would hurt iaf more than paf fighters.

3--the arrival of awacs by pakistan would make iaf vulnerable so they need to target and destroy them first which would be highly improbable. ( as much i know iaf have number of awacs operating aswell)



ok sir the answer is pakistan paf is flying the f16 for a long time not just recently so it they have better flying experience compared to the iaf flankers similarly indians have better flying experience for the migs
paf frontline and best aircraft is still the f16 and they depend on it a lot during conflict.so my point was that they are quite adept in handling these planes. as per jf17 and j10 they first need to inducted in mass numbers in paf to even talk about it.

secondly the better sams implies that altough paf needs to modernize and have better planes and capability they still have a good airdefence missile system to counter a threat. the word better does not imply against india or rest because paf will only be conducting defensive roles so indian g2a sams does not come into the question.the better implies that its better equipped than their fighterplanes range which need new induction and modernasation

thanks:cheers:
 
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sir, thankyou for your reply
but nowhere i found about the brahmos, it can really hit hard and secondly if a missile shield be adopted by india although its not fool proof but it will give enough time for second strike.

sir till now the brahmos is a sea based and land based weapon.
i read an article saying the iaf wants to induct the brahmos in its su30-mki but i ts still not done because you have to alter quite a lot to fit the brahmos into the flanker as its not designed to air that weapon.
the whole question of missile sheild thats a very big topic the truth is whenever a new technology is being worked upon then simultaneously work starts on how to counter the tech.the workon anti-antimissiles have already started<i provided links in another thread> by the time india puts the missile defence in place missiles and radar countering these defences will be built.
so i am not concentrating on that point.
thanx
 
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I think PAf will be able to defend under our own skies..article is nice...though i think it has favoured PAf a little...and u IAF ppl if u r so good then maybe u should not have run on Dec 14
 
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I think PAf will be able to defend under our own skies..article is nice...though i think it has favoured PAf a little...and u IAF ppl if u r so good then maybe u should not have run on Dec 14

yeah...the time wehn we sent a plane each to two strategically important areas for 'surgical strikes' without the use of pre-recce and AWACS?
give me a break will you..! your own Pm said it was nothing.
 
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Analysis of the PAF vs. IAF - Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

by M. Hussain

Pakistan and India. Two regional powers, frequently at war, armed to the teeth, possessing nuclear weapons and with no end in sight to their mutual animosity. War in the Subcontinent today has very high stakes. But none higher than in their respective air arms. Given the importance of air combat to modern warfare, a crucial factor to analyze the outcome of any conflict between them becomes analyzing the viability of each air force. For wars today always begin in air combat, and the successor there often has Fate decide in its favor.

The Pakistan Air Force has traditionally been known as one of the most professional air forces in the world. But the 1990s was a tough decade for the PAF and much of their prestige was lost. Pakistan chose to invest in nuclear weapons and diverted resources there. Damaging sanctions against Pakistan also hurt the PAF more than any other armed service. Thus, a decade was lost and PAF was left behind.
The Indian Air Force meanwhile, found the 1990s most fruitful. They progressed in leaps and bounds, as the Indian economy expanded, military equipment from the West and Russia opened up, and the IAF started learning and incorporating Western standards of air combat. Yet, there were times when India's political environment forced itself upon the IAF. Forced to wait for a local replacement for its MiG-21s that has been in development for over 20 years, and forced to abandon purchases because of political interference from within India, the IAF, on the turn of the century, found itself restrained.

Pakistan meanwhile gained momentum. Years of sanctions led to the development of a joint project with China - the JF-17. Unlike the Indian effort, this bore fruit quickly, under the able leadership of the PAF and astute decision making on the part of their military leader Musharraf. And after 9/11, the doors to Western equipment and military aid opened up again. But constant stalling plagued them such that little of concrete and operational value has been inducted. The PAF is nevertheless modernizing, and by 2012 would have caught up with the IAF. With induction in numbers of JF-17s and J-10s by the end of 2009, the PAF will see the gap vis-&#224;-vis the IAF close rapidly.

Yet, in the Winter of 2008/2009, the PAF is yet half-made and the threat of war is thrust upon her. The PAF and IAF are on their highest alert, as the IAF sees its last opportunity to break the PAF, and the PAF holds strong and does not back down. The vital question thus becomes, what will happen if war broke out now? Today? Would the PAF collapse? Such a question cannot be answered without looking carefully at the assets and capabilities of both air forces.

The first salients we notice is that the IAF is far larger, with about 740 combat aircraft versus the PAF's approximate 400 aircraft. We see that the IAF has over 100 FLANKERs that are modernized and top-rate against the PAF's handful of early block F-16As. The IAF fields BVR missiles in platforms ranging from the MiG-21 Bisons to the Su-30 MKI against a PAF which officially does not have BVRs.

Yet, everything is not as it seems. What at first glance seems overwhelming odds against the PAF, on closer examination, do not seem as overwhelming. The IAF has far lower serviceability of its aircraft, their pilot training, as evidenced by recent Red Flag exercises with the US is also not yet up to par with the PAF, their maintenance crews are not as diligent, their mainly Russian/Soviet technology is generally less reliable and less effective than advertised, and a large part of their fleet of MiG-21s and MiG-27s are outdated. PAF aircraft are either of Western stock or Chinese and are far more maintenance friendly. Pakistan has also been upgrading their aircraft massively and have incorporated a complex combination of technology from across the globe &#8211; from China to Brazil, from South Africa to the US. PAF also very likely has BVRs that are not advertised of South African and Chinese origin. PAF pilot training is on par with the best in the world, and its maintenance crews are trained on the level of Western maintenance crews. Lastly, fighting an air war over Pakistan gives the PAF a home advantage and makes their radar and SAM infrastructure very relevant.

IAF aircraft are mainly of Soviet/Russian origin and are not designed for easy maintenance. The Soviets designed aircraft for mass production and on the view that combat aircraft would have short lives in a full scale conflict. As such, ease of maintenance was the last item on their mind. Even the latest Indian acquisition of Russian aircraft, the Su-30 MKI is known for being highly maintenance intensive and extremely fragile. Modifications to the FLANKERs have made them even more difficult to maintain &#8211; and example being that IAF sometimes faces tire shortages because the increased tonnage of the Indian FLANKERs make their tires burn out very rapidly.
Indian maintenance crews are also not up to par &#8211; at least compared to Western air forces. The large number of IAF crashes is indicative of this, one of the highest rates amongst air forces of the world. What compounds this problem is the age of large sections of the Indian fleet which has large numbers of MiG-21s and MiG-27s that are, besides the Bisons, highly outdated and are sometimes referred to as &#8220;Flying Coffins&#8221; by their pilots. It is no wonder that India has a hard time recruiting and retaining pilots .

Pakistan on the other hand has no problems recruiting pilots &#8211; the PAF has one of the highest rejection rates amongst air forces in the world. The PAF also has a better pilot to aircaft ratio than the IAF, meaning it could sustain a greater sortie rate over a protracted conflict. PAF aircraft are also &#8220;pimped&#8221; in that they have been extensively modified. Thus, while on paper PAF is flying ancient Mirages that were bought second hand from the Australians, when one actually examines any such model, one is surprised at how extensively they have been rebuilt &#8211; almost from scratch and the hardware is extremely lethal. Other than the secretive BVR AAMs, the PAF has extensively incorporated the strike element into its Mirages, at a level only matched by the IAF&#8217;s Mirage-2000s and Su-30 FLANKERs, and even then, some of the equipment has no IAF equivalent.

Let us also remember than any conflict between the two forces would last a maximum of 2 weeks as neither side has either the logistics or the political will to fight a longer war. This means that the smaller air force can sustain itself on a more equal footing for the briefer period of time.
The IAF&#8217;s fleet of MiG-21s are very short legged. the PAF&#8217;s F-7s have better ranges and also don&#8217;t need to fly as far given that they would be defending. Considering how large the IAF&#8217;s fleet of MiG-21, this becomes a rather relevant point. It would be hard to imagine IAF&#8217;s MiG-21s being able to sustain a presence over Pakistani airspace. Meanwhile, Pakistani cruise missiles and ballistic missiles are significantly more developed, effective and numerous than their Indian counterparts. This means that many of the forward Indian air bases would effectively be discounted, further compounding the problem for the IAF.

All these factors suggest a far more complex and mixed picture of the balance between the two air forces. To quantify military power in a more concrete way and to see how this balance plays out, let us look at a model of the PAF and the IAF.
Let us consider three main elements - number of aircraft, how valuable each aircraft is in battle and aircraft serviceability. We have the number of aircraft as a given. We assign percentages for serviceability, and assign a value between 0 and 1 for how effective each aircraft is. To get a broadly accurate picture, these numbers do not have to be absolutely accurate, but relatively accurate. The Table below illustrates this model:

click here and scroll down to see the table.

We find the aggregate combat value by multiplying each of the factors and the number of aircraft. As you notice, I have not included factors such as home advantage to the PAF, PAF&#8217;s higher pilot ratio or PAF&#8217;s better training. I have also not included the short-legged nature of the MiG-21s and India&#8217;s likely inability to lose (or risk not losing) their forward air bases, effectively rendering them nonoperational. These factors are more intrinsic and are harder to quantify, so I will leave the reader to judge by how much to upgrade the PAF&#8217;s score on these parameters, or discount the IAF&#8217;s.

I am assuming that Air-to-Ground capabilities will also be an important aspect as destroying enemy aircraft on the ground or important installations is a significant element of the air war. I therefore am holding higher numbers of effectiveness for aircraft on both sides that otherwise would be completely redundant such as the IAF MiG-27. Of course, Air-to-Air is more important generally but strike missions should also be considered relevant. As such the model is only moderately biased towards air-to-air capabilities.

Conclusion
It would appear that the IAF is still the superior force. And while accounting for the exogenous items in this model would further lower the gap than the massive 37&#37; gap shown in the table, depending on how it is discounted, it is still decidedly in India&#8217;s favor. However, given the short nature of any conflict between India and Pakistan, the gap does not lend credibility to India attaining air superiority over Pakistan under any scenario as could be concluded if we took the 82% gap in numbers. The PAF would likely sustain significant causalities but would likely be able to deny the IAF any semblance of air superiority over Pakistan, at least for any conflict lasting up to a few weeks. As long as PAF can deny the IAF air superiority, it can be considered to have done its job and would be ready to pick the pieces up from where it left it in the last conflict over Kargil.

Grande Strategy: Analysis of the PAF vs. IAF - Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

Indian Combat Aircraft analysis
~60 Fulcrums undergoing modernization
~100 MiG-21 in need of replacement (most likely LCA)
~150 MiG-21bis in service until 2020
~80 Su-30MKI with 150 to be produced locally/delivered from Russia (iirc HAL already started production, and the second batch of 40 is still in process being delivered from Russia)
~110 Jaguars undergoing modernization
Support Aircraft
~5 ECJ-135 Airborne HQ's, in need of replacement
~3 Phalcon/Il-76 on order
~6 Il-78 tankers


Out of these, the Jaguars and Fishbeds need to be replaced within a 10-year timeframe. Possibly the older Fulcrums also. There is in place an MMRCA tender, for 126 aircraft, and joint-development of the PAK-FA with Russia.

Above analysis of IAF is not very impressive and need general overall except new SU30 for which IAF pilots handle or not is question mark ,if there is war percentage of indian losses will be more then PAF similar to 1965 or more.
 
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Pakistan has the best pilots of the world, ask US Generals, your Indian Pilots have the record of the most crashes in normal situation :rofl:

which Us general should i travel to the US to ask that?
this the height of being stubborn! we are all patriotic,yes we are...but to know what the best would know...you'd have to rise above the state propaganda and see the reality.I have done that...my govt. would tell me that we are strong and we can 'crush' pakistan...i think that's propaganda.your folks would tell you that one pakistani =10 indians...so the indian army isactually 1/10th of it's size...propaganda again!

i know that paf has world class pilots...have studied this deep...but the latest leveling up of the indian pilots has stunned the USAF pilots.Twice in recent times have the USAF(which i personally think is the most advanced) got a reality check about the quality of our lot(i dont mean to say that we are the best)...they lost to us when they were here...and that all these years when you were made to believe that PAf was better than IAf...the us dint invite paf at red flag(paf recently got an invitation for red flag 2009)
you have to swallow that.
you can not win when you cant learn to appreciate the enemy.period.
 
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which Us general should i travel to the US to ask that?
this the height of being stubborn! we are all patriotic,yes we are...but to know what the best would know...you'd have to rise above the state propaganda and see the reality.I have done that...my govt. would tell me that we are strong and we can 'crush' pakistan...i think that's propaganda.your folks would tell you that one pakistani =10 indians...so the indian army isactually 1/10th of it's size...propaganda again!

i know that paf has world class pilots...have studied this deep...but the latest leveling up of the indian pilots has stunned the USAF pilots.Twice in recent times have the USAF(which i personally think is the most advanced) got a reality check about the quality of our lot(i dont mean to say that we are the best)...they lost to us when they were here...and that all these years when you were made to believe that PAf was better than IAf...the us dint invite paf at red flag(paf recently got an invitation for red flag 2009)
you have to swallow that.
you can not win when you cant learn to appreciate the enemy.period.

I appreciate your capabilities but I wanted to tell you that our Pilots are superior.
 
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oh yeah...i forgot that pakistan is the most powerful nation...and that you are a nuclear muslim nation...the only nuclear muslim nation....and sovereign too....and oh yes democratic.....and that you ruled us for 1000 years....richer...blah blah...
o thought you'd be serious this time mate!

Look at the stats and your MiG crashes, that's enough proof!!!!!!
 
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Look at the stats and your MiG crashes, that's enough proof!!!!!!

you meant the stats of our mig crashes?
well...the quality of the planes(mig-21s mainly) that the indian air force pilots were made to fly till a year back was very bad.Now if you'd actually read the 'stats' you'd find that a good amount about 95% of the crashes happened due to engine failures.these problems were attributed to cheap spare parts involved...owing to a defunct govt banking on ukranian cheap substitutes.this problem has been resolved and the biggest indicator is the recent steep fall in crashes(touch wood).
but then you'd love the thought of indian pilots being incapable even of being able to fly fighter planes straight without crashing head on time and again.
fighting a plane straight and in combat are two different stories.you first learn the former and then spend years and hundreds of flight hours in trying to get to the latter.i can tell you that indian air force does teach it's pilots how to fly straight and an awful lot more.
 
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which Us general should i travel to the US to ask that?
Any of them flying the F-16. :agree:

i know that paf has world class pilots...have studied this deep...but the latest leveling up of the indian pilots has stunned the USAF pilots.Twice in recent times have the USAF(which i personally think is the most advanced) got a reality check about the quality of our lot(i dont mean to say that we are the best)...they lost to us when they were here
God, are you for real?? USAF didn't send their best equippemnt nor experienced pilots because they came here to lose so the F-22 could get approved. Even Indians admit that!

...and that all these years when you were made to believe that PAf was better than IAf...the us dint invite paf at red flag(paf recently got an invitation for red flag 2009)
you have to swallow that.
you can not win when you cant learn to appreciate the enemy.period
One single visit to Red Flag and your arrogance has already reached the sky. :disagree:
How many times have you been invited to Top Gun? Do you even know how many times USAF lost to PAF team??

Go do some research before you post again.
 
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Any of them flying the F-16. :agree:

i know that paf has world class pilots...have studied this deep...but the latest leveling up of the indian pilots has stunned the USAF pilots.Twice in recent times have the USAF(which i personally think is the most advanced) got a reality check about the quality of our lot(i dont mean to say that we are the best)...they lost to us when they were here
God, are you for real?? USAF didn't send their best equippemnt nor experienced pilots because they came here to lose so the F-22 could get approved. Even Indians admit that!


One single visit to Red Flag and your arrogance has already reached the sky. :disagree:
How many times have you been invited to Top Gun? Do you even know how many times USAF lost to PAF team??

Go do some research before you post again.[/QUOTE]

on the contrary why dont you post some links to prove this?
and the link in which 'indians admit that the usaf pilots lost delibrately'
and TOPGUN? last i heard it was a navy school in the us?
what has top gun gotta do with paf??is what you claim documented?or is TOP GUN TOP SECRET??
red flag is the most respected international air exercise...and pakistan has never been invited!the paf has got an invitation in 2009.
 
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claiming that your paf piltos are better than iaf pilots would require some credible proof..or you cant convince anyone...ditto for me..i am not being arrogant...on the contrary iam replying to the claim of the PAf being 'better' than the iaf!
 
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oh yeah...i forgot that pakistan is the most powerful nation...and that you are a nuclear muslim nation...the only nuclear muslim nation....and sovereign too....and oh yes democratic.....and that you ruled us for 1000 years....richer...blah blah...
o thought you'd be serious this time mate!

I dont like this statement at all.....Me being a complete RSS and Hindu supporter its very shame that everyone projecting including pakistanis as only nuclear nation. Pakistan shouldnt get an international identification as Nuclear Muslim Nation. You may not know the impact of this statement over the world and how many ppl are trying to take over excluding INDIA.
 
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God, are you for real?? USAF didn't send their best equippemnt nor experienced pilots because they came here to lose so the F-22 could get approved. Even Indians admit that!


One single visit to Red Flag and your arrogance has already reached the sky. :disagree:
How many times have you been invited to Top Gun? Do you even know how many times USAF lost to PAF team??

Go do some research before you post again.

on the contrary why dont you post some links to prove this?
and the link in which 'indians admit that the usaf pilots lost delibrately'
and TOPGUN? last i heard it was a navy school in the us?
what has top gun gotta do with paf??is what you claim documented?or is TOP GUN TOP SECRET??
red flag is the most respected international air exercise...and pakistan has never been invited!the paf has got an invitation in 2009.[/QUOTE]

There's detailed information about the excercise, go read it.
And I never said that the lost deliberately, they didn't bring best of their equippement or pilots.
 
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on the contrary why dont you post some links to prove this?
and the link in which 'indians admit that the usaf pilots lost delibrately'
and TOPGUN? last i heard it was a navy school in the us?
what has top gun gotta do with paf??is what you claim documented?or is TOP GUN TOP SECRET??
red flag is the most respected international air exercise...and pakistan has never been invited!the paf has got an invitation in 2009.

There's detailed information about the excercise, go read it.
And I never said that the lost deliberately, they didn't bring best of their equippement or pilots.[/QUOTE]

i am through with the report...know about the American 'handicaps' in cope-india...but that was for the simple reason that neither side had anticipated such anoutcome..indians simulated the 4:1 ratio thinking that not being at par with the USAF..this handicap would make things even...the usaf readily accepted to the standard 4:1...bvr was not to be used by either side...now what happend was that to the surprise of both the sides...IAF performed better than the USAF expected and outclassed them for that unfavourable environment which ironically was meant to keep things level!
any report whatsoever would mark the fact that usaf pilots accpeted that indians were more professional.

i found the analysis of the red flag more comprehensive...when tables were turned...we had no awacs support and had to fly just through voice guidance...the Bison even then was very effective against the f16s...
and we still performed well.i am mindful of the learnings from both the exercises...that the su-30 will still take some time to become a sure f16 killer in the hands of an iaf officer...as it is new.

you havnt given the link for the 'top gun'
 
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