PAF victories against Israeli Air Force, kept secret for 25 years - Air Commodore (r) Khalid Chishti

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

So basically he didn't quote any Israeli air chief, but he quoted someone telling him that quote?
I have never heard of an Israeli air chief ever saying such a thing

Neither have I but he Quoted an indian writer.. who has written a Book on PAF..

 

[Beny Karachun]

Benny, I don't have issues with Israel. Without charting the settlement of European Jewry to corner of West Asia all the way to the present I can say that there was element of time travel. European Jews living with and access to 20th century world scoped into Palestine, a people who at the time were in socio-political terms still living sometime in the 18th century.

The settlers were backed by powerful and wealthy groups in capitals of the west, from Washington to London to Paris etc. First world met Third world and no surprises who won. Many of fighting elements of the nascent Israel were ex-WW2 veterans. In addition the Germans had wiped 6 million of their people and that animus was expanded on the poor Palestinans.

Israel is in fact a sliver of West in West Asia and in this era the Western world is dominant. That is the bottom line.

Completely irrelevant to the subject we were speaking about, and also wrong.

We were talking about military, not socio-political terms.
Egypt and Jordan were colonies of the United Kingdom and were heavily influenced by them, Jordanian army was even trained and designed by the British and were considered an extremely capable force, much more so than "ex-WW2 veterans", in other words, a bunch of traumatized holocaust survivors.
Lebanon and Syria were under a French mandate and were heavily influenced by them. So don't tell me they were living sometime in the 18th century.

Military wise, Arabs were always superior in everything but tactics and strategy.
They had more and better, Soviet equipment. Politically they were stronger, too. Their oil embargo on the West led to British and French weapons embargos on Israel.

And Palestinians weren't poor at all, they aren't the victims of this conflict, they're the actual oppressors.

Dead man tell no lies.

What's your point.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

We were talking about military, not socio-political terms.

There is relationship between the two. Societies with socio-political maturity of 18th century rarely produce militaries that can fight 20th century wars.

Military wise, Arabs were always superior in everything but tactics and strategy.
They had more and better, Soviet equipment. Politically they were stronger, too. Their oil embargo on the West led to British and French weapons embargos on Israel.

Do I detect a taste of Jewish exceptionalism here. Maybe some that rubbed off on you guys from the Germans who as you know had similir outlook. There were the Germans and then there were the Untermensch ...

Going back to the thread I believe there were some token PAF pilots sent to Arab airforces as indication of support by Bhutto who had bit of thing with these Arab Ba'ath revolutionaries governments. Maybe some of them might have even shot a IAF fighter. But since then this whole thing has turned into bit of urban legends where ignorant Pakistani's masses lap up the idea of brave Muslim killing the vile Jew like alcoholic slurps up his drink.

From my perspective if Pakistan had such hot shots frankly they should have been shooting Indian Migs in 1971 and saving Pakistan from the defeat in East Pakistan. Pity they were in West Asia saving the Palis.

 

[Gripen9]

4 confirmed kills and 1 probable for the PAF.
S/L Saif ul Azam shot down 1 Super Mystere and damaged another one over Mafrak AB on June 5th, 1967.
He then shot down a Vatour bomber and escorting Mirage on June 7th, 1967 over Iraq.

F/L Sattar Alvi shot down a Mirage over Golan April 26th, 1974.

And I agree with our Israeli settler here on the forum Arab AFs had adequate weaponry they were just crap.
Bekaa Valley 1982 IAF vs SAAF 82-0 by that time all others had given up.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Which war are you talking about exactly?

The reason of Israel's perceived "loss" (That is just in contrast to its former victories, tactically the Israeli soldier was still qualitatively and numerically superior) isn't really because we weren't fighting for our existence, it's because we didn't put the Lebanese in a position they fought for theirs. In such a war, where the enemy hides in villages and cities, fearing for collateral damage is your downfall.

Only way I see Israel truly win, in the same way it won 1967, is a massive, Russian-style bombardment of Lebanon and Lebanese critical infrastructures.

2006 conflict was the one I was referring to. Hezbollah caught IDF off guard with their tactics throughout that war. Of course, there wasn't any aerial combat. But I'm only talking about morale here.

Hezbollah is probably Israel's most motivated opponent.

I get your point that turning a nation into a car park will usually (not always though!) be called a "victory". That's pretty obvious really.

 

[Beny Karachun]

There is relationship between the two. Societies with socio-political maturity of 18th century rarely produce militaries that can fight 20th century wars.

Even in those terms, Arab countries weren't all that far behind, as the British and the French had a mandate in their lands.

Do I detect a taste of Jewish exceptionalism here. Maybe some that rubbed off on you guys from the Germans who as you know had similir outlook. There were the Germans and then there wewre the Untermensch ...

I didn't really get you here

Going back to the thread I believe there were some token PAF pilots sent to Arab airforces as indication of support by Bhutto who had bit of thing with these Arab Ba'ath revolutionaries governments. Maybe some of them might have even shot a IAF fighter. But since then this whole thing has turned into bit of urban legends where ignorant Pakistani's masses lap up the idea of brave Muslim killing the vile Jew like alcoholic slurps up his drink.

Completely possible.
I believe the real number was inflated, in order to show that it wasn't a one-time engagement or a fluke.

4 confirmed kills and 1 probable for the PAF.
S/L Saif ul Azam shot down 1 Super Mystere and damaged another one over Mafrak AB on June 5th, 1967.
He then shot down a Vatour bomber and escorting Mirage on June 7th, 1967 over Iraq.

Maybe. I have to say, in 1967, Israeli pilots were first instructed to not engage in aerial combat, but to bomb the enemy airfields and jets on the ground at all costs, and most of the Israeli pilots listened to this instruction. In some sort, they were Kamikaze pilots willing to get shot down in order to destroy their target, and in the bigger picture this is what led to the decisive victory.

Also, I have to say, 1967 war was both the most successful Israeli war, yet at the same time the worst in terms of air to air battles, with 12 jets shot down in air battles, and "only" 60 Arab jets shot down in return. Accounting for almost half (12/25) of the jets shot down in air to air engagements in Israeli history.

 

[Gripen9]

There is relationship between the two. Societies with socio-political maturity of 18th century rarely produce militaries that can fight 20th century wars.

Do I detect a taste of Jewish exceptionalism here. Maybe some that rubbed off on you guys from the Germans who as you know had similir outlook. There were the Germans and then there were the Untermensch ...

Going back to the thread I believe there were some token PAF pilots sent to Arab airforces as indication of support by Bhutto who had bit of thing with these Arab Ba'ath revolutionaries governments. Maybe some of them might have even shot a IAF fighter. But since then this whole thing has turned into bit of urban legends where ignorant Pakistani's masses lap up the idea of brave Muslim killing the vile Jew like alcoholic slurps up his drink.

From my perspective if Pakistan had such hot shots frankly they should have been shooting Indian Migs in 1971 and saving Pakistan from the defeat in East Pakistan. Pity they were in West Asia saving the Palis.

PAF maintained a 3:1 kill ratio even in 1971. You can refer to independent sources like Frickers or Pushpinder Singh or Gen Yeager. PAF even shot down Mig21 flying 1950 vintage F-86s ( F/L Maqsood Amir Dec 17, 1971 1145 hrs) and F-6 (F/L Aamir A Sharif Dec 14 1971). Both aircraft were far inferior to the Mach 2 Mig2.

The whole "Defense of the east lies in the west" strategy was flawed. Pak Army's armor pushes in Shakargargh salient failed, and if it was not for the PAF, Indian Armor may have penetrated deep into Thar/Cholistan sector. In the east, PAF only had 1 sqn (No 14) against 280 fighters of the IAF eastern command. Even then they were able to provide some cover. Majority of the Sabres were destroyed by PAF personnel themselves on the last day.

 

[Beny Karachun]

2006 conflict was the one I was referring to. Hezbollah caught IDF off guard with their tactics throughout that war. Of course, there wasn't any aerial combat. But I'm only talking about morale here.

2006 War was under the direction of Olmert's government. With such a government we wouldn't have won a game of tic tac toe, let alone a war. Army was given contradicting orders, one day conquer that village, next day in the midst of battle pull back. Olmert started the war correctly, with a decisive airstrike, but he was drunk of power and thought he could just enter Lebanon without any real plan without casualties, and without "turning Lebanon into a car park" (lmao). Israel would have defeated Hezbollah, but it would require more time, massive bombardment of Lebanon, and more casualties. Something Olmert wasn't willing to do.

Hezbollah is probably Israel's most motivated opponent.

Maybe. However motivation can be taken. Especially once they'll understand they're dragging Lebanon into complete destruction, just to make Iran happy.

I get your point that turning a nation into a car park will usually (not always though!) be called a "victory". That's pretty obvious really.

I know it's obvious. That's why I think it's dumb Israel doesn't utilize this.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Even in those terms, Arab countries weren't all that far behind, as the British and the French had a mandate in their lands.


I didn't really get you here


Completely possible.
I believe the real number was inflated, in order to show that it wasn't a one-time engagement or a fluke.


Maybe. I have to say, in 1967, Israeli pilots were first instructed to not engage in aerial combat, but to bomb the enemy airfields and jets on the ground at all costs, and most of the Israeli pilots listened to this instruction. In some sort, they were Kamikaze pilots willing to get shot down in order to destroy their target, and in the bigger picture this is what led to the decisive victory.

Also, I have to say, 1967 war was both the most successful Israeli war, yet at the same time the worst in terms of air to air battles, with 12 jets shot down in air battles, and "only" 60 Arab jets shot down in return. Accounting for almost half (12/25) of the jets shot down in air to air engagements in Israeli history.

Israel is not the enemy of Pakistan and we the Pakistani nationalists wish Israel and the Israeli people all the best. But please don't claim that the Arabs were not that far behind Israel............. .........we both know that the Arabs are HUGELY behind Israel and the Jewish people in all indicators for at least the past 1000 years.........Israeli/Jewish intelligentsia is many decades ahead of the Arabs.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Even in those terms, Arab countries weren't all that far behind, as the British and the French had a mandate in their lands.

Precisely. They were mandated. That alone tells you about their societies. Effectively they were colonial subjects.

PAF maintained a 3:1 kill ratio even in 1971. You can refer to independent sources like Frickers or Pushpinder Singh or Gen Yeager. PAF even shot down Mig21 flying 1950 vintage F-86s ( F/L Maqsood Amir Dec 17, 1971 1145 hrs) and F-6 (F/L Aamir A Sharif Dec 14 1971). Both aircraft were far inferior to the Mach 2 Mig2.

The whole "Defense of the east lies in the west" strategy was flawed. Pak Army's armor pushes in Shakargargh salient failed, and if it was not for the PAF, Indian Armor may have penetrated deep into Thar/Cholistan sector. In the east, PAF only had 1 sqn (No 14) against 280 fighters of the IAF eastern command. Even then they were able to provide some cover. Majority of the Sabres were destroyed by PAF personnel themselves on the last day.

Agreed. I was being sore about the fact that why did Pakistan even have one man involved in a conflicts that had nothing to do with them.

 

[Windjammer]

There were at least Five confirmed kills by PAF pilots.
It shouldn't come as a surprise since once a South African air chief admitted and confirmed documents on tactics of how to fight in the MiG-21.....obtained from Israel.
Astonishingly, those tactics were hand written by a Pakistani pilot deputed to some Arab country but Israeli intelligence some how managed to get hold of them.

 

[Titanium100]

The Israelis were also more motivated in their earlier wars with the Arab nations. If you're fighting for your very existence, it does make a difference. Morale in most Arab armies was and still is less.

Nobody who has enough sufficient IQ thinks Israel was fighting herself in that war and the ratio was extremely advantage Israel. Why do you think the whole operation was aborted just within Six days that is diplomatic timeline like speed mission aborted? These 3 countries faced some serious threats from washington.

They made one of the biggest mistakes according to Sun Tzu's law of war ''If you know yourself and your enemy you won't lose in 100 battles'' They didn't know how large alliance the enemy could field they were shocked by the responses around the world. They made a massive miscalculation on epic proportions. Because they didn't know the enemy by not doing enough research and pragmatic calculation. The only good decision they made was aborting as quick as possible once they realized what they got themselves into which was nonetheless a wise decision which means they didn't only have fools amidst them but also wise heads but it was the warmongers who forced the war on the rest and vetoed the wise heads.

Lets just assume they persisted and refused to back down within days 20-30 coalition would have invaded Egypt, Syria and Jordan

 

[Gripen9]

Precisely. They were mandated. That alone tells you about their societies. Effectively they were colonial subjects.
Agreed. I was being sore about the fact that why did Pakistan even have one man involved in a conflicts that had nothing to do with them.

In hindsight, I would agree.
At the time (1960s) had very close relationships with Kingdom of Jordan, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and Imperial Iran. Saif ul Azam and 3 other aviators had gone to Jordan and King Hussein's request to act as advisors. They had hardly arrived at Mafraq AB, that klaxagon's rang out of an incoming air raid. By the time Saif ul Azam and his wingman landed back at Mafraq, RJAF had seized to exist. All its airiwrthy aircraft had been destroyed (Uncle Sam had withdrawn their F-104s prior to the hostilities) .
On the flip side, Brig. Zia ul Haq on deputation in Jordan led the brutal crackdown on Palestinians known as Black September.

PAF personnel were on the ground in Saudi 1969 at Khamis Mushaiyat fighting Marxist Yemeni forces - Battle of Sharoora

As someone mentioned earlier, Bhutto was partial to these socialist regimes so we had PAF personnel in Syria, Libya. Bhutto had a key role in creating UAE so Sheikh Zayed was very partial to Pakistan.
Times have changed, loyalties have changed....

Believe it or not 1960s Pakistan was very progressive and developing country. A lot of other Muslim countries actually looked up to it. Then Bhutto came and destroyed all the budding industries with his nationalization policies and was followed by regressive dictotorship of Gen Zia and free for all corruption under BB & takloo.

 

[Gripen9]

There were at least Five confirmed kills by PAF pilots.
It shouldn't come as a surprise since once a South African air chief admitted and confirmed documents on tactics of how to fight in the MiG-21.....obtained from Israel.
Astonishingly, those tactics were hand written by a Pakistani pilot deputed to some Arab country but Israeli intelligence some how managed to get hold of them.

4 confirmed. I believe you are counting the second Super Mystere that S/L Saif ul Azam heavily damaged over Mafraq on June 5th. But it was able to limp back to Israel (most probably crashed there) but since it could not confirmed, it was never claimed.

Both Syrian & Egyptian armed forces were highly unprofessional and very casual. Israel had penetrated them at the highest level. IAF planned its initial strike on Egyptian airfields during their "tea time" after en masse training sortie while majority of the planes were on the ground, in the open being refueled. MM Alam while on deputation to Syria 69-70, was able to photo copy Mig21 manuals (still in russian, no one had bothered to have them translated into Arabic) in front of Syrian AF personnel, take them home and had the Air Attache send them back to Pakistan for translation....

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Believe it or not 1960s Pakistan was very progressive and developing country. A lot of other Muslim countries actually looked up to it. Then Bhutto came and destroyed all the budding industries with his nationalization policies and was followed by regressive dictotorship of Gen Zia and free for all corruption under BB & takloo

Yes, I know my dad was there during late 1950s to 1960s. But honestly the reason why Pakistan went down after 1970s is not Bhutto or Gen Zia. The picture is far more complicated and bigger than the two. This is not of course absolving them because they could have helped to stop the rot and not speed it up.

I believe that when the British left in 1947 the structures of government were product of British culture. If you look at our officials, military officers, judges theyb exuded this Britishness. Ayub Khan was epitomy of that. What happened was as the decades moved forward British influence waned and quality went down. Desi culture began to re-assert itself. We were going back to the age before the British arrived. As politics particularly was about local culture it's influence began to gnaw away at police and other arms of the state. The army like all armies in the world tend to be isolated from the civilian domain and thus kept functioning moreorless with the ethos they had inheritated from British era and this is even apparrent today.

As a anecdote my dad was spent some time in I believe Jinnah Hospital in about 1958 in Karachi. He tells me when later he moved to UK in 1960 the local hospital was almost the same as Jinnah. I remembers it as clean, with metal buckets placed around with sand in them for fire emergency, whitwashed clean walls, efficient nurses and even good food. Meaning the hospital was almost like it was during the British era.