PAF training comparison

[That Guy]

Dude, why don't you get sober and start doing a bit of homework before coming here to quote me?

More than half of PAF fleet, those planes were introduced some 5-6 decades ago. Are they being flown by old men? No. Planes do not die as pilots are retired. They're passed on. The experience is passed on. And as these planes are still flown today, the combat experience (from those jets, Avionics, agility, electronics and munitions) isn't dead. Now of course there has been upgrades and whatnot, but let's not kid ourselves and say that upgrades bring them near the performance on F-16sA/Bs or similar gen aircrafts.

And this may be the news to you but, as planes retire, the pilots are passed on to newer jets. So when J6 (soviet mig 19) retired in 2002 for Pakistan, the pilots were used on different aircrafts. They still carried the experience from J6 that they had flown. And the pilots that stop flying do offer their mission stories and so forth to newer generations. This is why there is kill cam, from which pilots learn. They don't say "but sir, these kill cam are from 50 years old aircraft, let's watch a video from the past decade"

The biggest problem with everything you've written is that you're confusing individual experience with military experience. Whatever an individual pilot learns, gets passed on to future pilots; thus military doctrine is a continuously evolving beast. That is what military experience is. PAF has had more modern air combat experience, and for a longer period of time than China has, which is why I say that PAF is more experienced, as in more matured military doctrine.

Everyone here is telling you the same thing, in different ways, in the hopes you would comprehend your mistake. Just STOP! For your own sake, just stop.

 

[Viper0011.]

No i'm listening to them. But not listening to a drunk man who doesn't know history much.

And the combat tactics are revelent because planes made around Vietnam war are being used today still. Just because you were recently born doesn't mean all planes today being flown were been made recently.

Furthermore, @orangzaib is the one who initially came up with the statement, and i quote his exact words "The PAF may not have seen combat in terms of REALLY destroying an enemy jet." Yes, PAF has no experience in destroying Indian jets and vice versa..

I have NO idea what's going on with you. If you re-read your many posts above, you'll see there were a couple of people trying to tell you how silly your posts were sounding. But that's ok.

Next, you are quoting me out of context. Go re-read the entire post you quoted me from. I had given you history, that the last time, India and Pakistan had a REAL air war, it was in 1971. I think that's correct.
Next, I also outlined, the only significant real war like small scale experience that the IAF had was in Kargil.
Similarly, I outlined how the PAF has been supporting the WOT and using top notch smart munitions. And that the PAF's last air combat were against the Russians during the Afghan war. Go re-read my posts. I don't know why you are quoting me on here out of context but its fine. Your posts have not made sense to me or to a few others all day long. I think I am done responding to your messages as its become a waste of time and entirely

 

[MastanKhan]

I have NO idea what's going on with you. If you re-read your many posts above, you'll see there were a couple of people trying to tell you how silly your posts were sounding. But that's ok.

Next, you are quoting me out of context. Go re-read the entire post you quoted me frpm. I had given you history, that the last time, India and Pakistan had a REAL air war, it was in 1971. I think that's correct.
Next, I also outlined, the only significant real war like small scale experience that the IAF had was in Kargil.
Similarly, I outlined how the PAF has been supporting the WOT and using top notch smart munitions. And that the PAF's last air combat were against the Russians during the Afghan war. Go re-read my posts. I don't know why you are quoting me on here out of context but its fine. Your posts have not made sense to me or to a few others all day long. I think I am done responding to your messages as its become a waste of time and entirely

Sir,

" When you argue with a fool---he will take you down to his level and beat you with his experience ".

 

[WishLivePak]

I have NO idea what's going on with you. If you re-read your many posts above, you'll see there were a couple of people trying to tell you how silly your posts were sounding. But that's ok.

Next, you are quoting me out of context. Go re-read the entire post you quoted me frpm. I had given you history, that the last time, India and Pakistan had a REAL air war, it was in 1971. I think that's correct.
Next, I also outlined, the only significant real war like small scale experience that the IAF had was in Kargil.
Similarly, I outlined how the PAF has been supporting the WOT and using top notch smart munitions. And that the PAF's last air combat were against the Russians during the Afghan war. Go re-read my posts. I don't know why you are quoting me on here out of context but its fine. Your posts have not made sense to me or to a few others all day long. I think I am done responding to your messages as its become a waste of time and entirely

Oh really, me quoting you out of context when you get caught red handed? I've proven your faults many times, it is you who needs to learn.

1) You said there hasn't been "really" destroying enemy jet, which now you admit you were wrong with.
2) You said the experiences of MiG 17/19 is dead. I have given example on how the experience still lives.
3) You mention how PAF trains with so and so (including red flag). I have posted multiple links which mentions China also training with so and so (including red flag).

I'm not going to re read your posts that you wrote while drunk. And indeed it was a waste of time arguing with you. I thought you will be sensible when it comes to PAF, but boy I was wrong. Your analogy of Imran Khan creating pastunistan is similar to the talk you've posted here.


When you sober up, they'll start to make sense. But then you don't make sense yourself, so who am i kidding.

 

[WishLivePak]

The biggest problem with everything you've written is that you're confusing individual experience with military experience. Whatever an individual pilot learns, gets passed on to future pilots; thus military doctrine is a continuously evolving beast. That is what military experience is. PAF has had more modern air combat experience, and for a longer period of time than China has, which is why I say that PAF is more experienced, as in more matured military doctrine.

Everyone here is telling you the same thing, in different ways, in the hopes you would comprehend your mistake. Just STOP! For your own sake, just stop.

Again modern air combat? The combat from 1970s vs soviets? Because this "modern combat" failed to detect the 2011 attack and failed to keep up with the Americans after initial intrusion, despite the Americans being around for couple of hours in total time. And the excuse you came up with "oh our western border is friendly and taliban don't fly."

Oh and it is true that PLAAF has not fought as many wars as PAF has, but we should not forget a near 20 year long Vietnam war, in which they were on constant alert.

So why don't you stop quoting if you have no facts to present, apart from your "opinion."

 

[Max Pain]

Guys, as said, our pilots hold your pilots in high regard, so really no need to argue about PAF pilots being better than PLAAF pilots in close range combat. I'm actually happy that your guys can 'teach them a lesson' to our pilots, better to have our *** kick in training with a solid AF like PAF, than to be defeated in real combat.

your sentiments are well appreciated,
it takes a big heart to spew such a statement,

 

[WishLivePak]

Hi,

What seems funny to me is that why the poster fighting for PLAAF---how good their pilots are----if the Chinese members would be claiming it as such---there wouldn't be any disagreement---

Hi

Why don't you quote me if you want an answer? Or it'd be more entertaining to hear the answer you really want to hear from members I've spoken with?

To answer you question, this is internet. We should welcome disagreement. If someone is wrong, offer facts. And just because I'm a Pakistani doesn't mean I shall say that Pakistan is richest country in the world or has best standing army in the world. My initial question was about something else (why China cannot sell the aircraft), until one member said "PAF pilots are better than PLAAF."

 

[Max Pain]

Im just enjoying this show,

this escalated from export bids to PAF PLAAF comparison,

 

[That Guy]

Again modern air combat? The combat from 1970s vs soviets? Because this "modern combat" failed to detect the 2011 attack and failed to keep up with the Americans after initial intrusion, despite the Americans being around for couple of hours in total time. And the excuse you came up with "oh our western border is friendly and taliban don't fly."

Oh and it is true that PLAAF has not fought as many wars as PAF has, but we should not forget a near 20 year long Vietnam war, in which they were on constant alert.

So why don't you stop quoting if you have no facts to present, apart from your "opinion."

This is not an opinion, this is fact. I have not presented excuses, I have present logically based arguments. Would you expect one of your friends to come into your household and start beating you? Probably not. There was no reason to believe that the US (Pakistan's friend) would pull something like this. Pakistan was not prepared for an arial invasion from the west, because there was no reason to be prepared. The radars were under peace time deployment, this is a fact. You cannot keep ignoring facts to hide your own foolishness any longer. Everyone keeps telling you the truth and you keep ignoring it. This is why i believe that the truth offends you, because you're so stuck in your position that you're unwilling to admit when you're wrong.

The Chinese Vietnam war gave valuable knowledge to the Chinese, but that was only one war. Pakistani pilots have experience in many wars against many different opponents, including Afghanistan, India, the Soviet air force, and limited engagements against Israel during an Arab Israeli war. Then more recently, it has been conducting and air campaign against militant organizations. There are very few air forces out there that can boast about this much military experience.

 

[Manticore]

OFFTOPIC POSTS MOVED FROM JF-17 THREAD

 

[That Guy]

OFFTOPIC POSTS MOVED FROM JF-17 THREAD

Thanks, it was getting annoying. Everytime it updated, I thought more news had come down the pipeline.

 

[WishLivePak]

This is not an opinion, this is fact. I have not presented excuses, I have present logically based arguments. Would you expect one of your friends to come into your household and start beating you? Probably not. There was no reason to believe that the US (Pakistan's friend) would pull something like this. Pakistan was not prepared for an arial invasion from the west, because there was no reason to be prepared. The radars were under peace time deployment, this is a fact. You cannot keep ignoring facts to hide your own foolishness any longer. Everyone keeps telling you the truth and you keep ignoring it. This is why i believe that the truth offends you, because you're so stuck in your position that you're unwilling to admit when you're wrong.

The Chinese Vietnam war gave valuable knowledge to the Chinese, but that was only one war. Pakistani pilots have experience in many wars against many different opponents, including Afghanistan, India, the Soviet air force, and limited engagements against Israel during an Arab Israeli war. Then more recently, it has been conducting and air campaign against militant organizations. There are very few air forces out there that can boast about this much military experience.

please list the facts, backed with credible sources. Not "hey i call it a fact, so shall you, even though I don't have a source for this. You should look it up google to see if I'm wrong or correct." If you're making a claim, you have to put forth the source.

"Would you expect one of your friends to come into your household and start beating you? Probably not."

If there is a possibility that in my home lives a person who has killed my friend's family, yes I'll be prepared.

"Pakistan was not prepared for an arial invasion from the west, because there was no reason to be prepared. The radars were under peace time deployment, this is a fact. You cannot keep ignoring facts to hide your own foolishness any longer. Everyone keeps telling you the truth and you keep ignoring it.

Here is the report about abbottabad commision: The whole episode of the U.S. assassination mission of May 2, 2011 and the Pakistan government's response before, during and after appears in large part to be a story of complacency, ignorance, negligence, incompetence, irresponsibility and possibly worse at various levels inside and outside the government.

US had warned Pakistan before that it'll come in and get Osama. Yet you say there was no reason for US to pull this move. I'll add further "Despite signals from Washington that American forces would enter Pakistan if they thought they could capture bin Laden, Pakistani’s air defenses were set to a “peace time mode” when the U.S. helicopters crossed into Pakistani airspace, the report said."

So your say about "There was no reason to believe that the US (Pakistan's friend) would pull something like this. " is trash. US had already given signal to Pakistan, yet...

And oh "The Chinese Vietnam war gave valuable knowledge to the Chinese, but that was only one war." So who fought the korean war? It was a different China? Who fought during WW2? Or wars before that?

"Pakistani pilots have experience in many wars against many different opponents, including Afghanistan, India, the Soviet air force,"

Afghanistan or Soviet? I think it's only one. Afghan air force was basically soviet air force. So that is Soviet, India and Israel only. Meanwhile China has experience with US, Japan, UK, South Korea, Australia and possibly other NATO members. These are world superpowers. And they have many different kinds of planes. Meanwhile India and Soviets employed near similar kinds of jets/technology. Now this is a fact.

@Chinese-Dragon may be able to offer more insight into Chinese air force. I'm not very well versed. But I do think that China made many sacrifices and fought despite the odds.

@Manticore allow me to edit all my posts here, such as the OP, so I can post sources (such as PLAAF exercises). Limiting to just one comment is quite a bait thread. This site has a lot and they will read my initial post, ignore 4 pages of the thread, and start discussing the very first post. It's like judging book by cover: "PAF pilots are not as good as PLAAF" and person ignores the book and start bashing the book.

Oh and while you're at it, why don't you put the post where the guy said initially "PAF pilots are better than PLAAF pilots?" That post was off topic certainly.

You should also give me the right to change the title. It should be somewhere along the lines of "PAF training vs PLAAF." That is what the whole argument has been about.

 

[Manticore]

please list the facts, backed with credible sources. Not "hey i call it a fact, so shall you, even though I don't have a source for this. You should look it up google to see if I'm wrong or correct." If you're making a claim, you have to put forth the source.

And oh "The Chinese Vietnam war gave valuable knowledge to the Chinese, but that was only one war." So who fought the korean war? It was a different China? Who fought during WW2? Or wars before that?

"Pakistani pilots have experience in many wars against many different opponents, including Afghanistan, India, the Soviet air force,"

Afghanistan or Soviet? I think it's only one. Afghan air force was basically soviet air force. So that is Soviet, India and Israel only. Meanwhile China has experience with US, Japan, UK, South Korea, Australia and possibly other NATO members. These are world superpowers. And they have many different kinds of planes. Meanwhile India and Soviets employed near similar kinds of jets/technology. Now this is a fact.

@Manticore allow me to edit all my posts here, such as the OP, so I can post sources (such as PLAAF exercises). Limiting to just one comment is quite a bait thread. This site has a lot and they will read my initial post, ignore 4 pages of the thread, and start discussing the very first post. It's like judging book by cover: "PAF pilots are not as good as PLAAF" and person ignores the book and start bashing the book.

Oh and while you're at it, why don't you put the post where the guy said initially "PAF pilots are better than PLAAF pilots?" That post was off topic certainly.

You should also give me the right to change the title. It should be somewhere along the lines of "PAF training vs PLAAF." That is what the whole argument has been about.

Make a post and I will edit the first post of the thread by pasting that content

I was the first pilot from PAF to come to USA to study INS, I went from glass meters mechanical instruments to digital green it wasn't difficult a bit different all the time I kept saying oh I wish I had that earlier. And I said that 3 or 4 times and the American Instructor asked me you look happy and then I told him why I am saying I wish I had that earlier, in Dekha me and Nosiy haider were doing a snake climb and when we came out we were 50 miles apart inside India

 

[WishLivePak]

Make a post and I will edit the first post of the thread by pasting that content

The forum doesn't allow me to edit my first post? It does allow me to edit the third one.

For the title, please put "PAF training compared to PLAAF." We're comparing these 2 countries, not others (more general).

 

[Judge]

you're saying that PAF training is better than Chinese?

Pfft.

Yes. And by a good margin.

On a LOT of accounts. More funds does not translate into "better" training in this regard. Experience does, force flight time does. How much of the world you absorb does. And what foreign air-forces do you refer to when you say that the PLAAF has fought them? Other than the Korean war in the 50s and on/off skirmishes over the Taiwanese Strait.. there really was not much combat undertaken by the PLAAF.. especially none against a well trained airforce like the IAF.
By contrast, the PAF has remained in almost constant "cold/hot" war status with India, has placed a massive emphasis on training to compensate for equipment..
Your logic is incoherent with how air forces develop their ethos. Yes, funds are the main livelihood.. but so far the situation has not reached that point where pilots cant fly and train to the required amount anymore. Training is developed over years of "cohesive" experience from the personnel within the institution. So how easily you are able to dismiss the years of "experience" that PAF pilots who go on exchange, train with other airforces and so on shows that you aren't very well versed in air warfare or its development. Take the IDF-AF. They came from the ground up with technically inferior equipment to come out on top.. and regardless of it all. .. the one thing that set them apart was training. And that training did not come from the IDF-AF having more funds than say the USAF or RAF.. but with how the collective "experience" that its personnel gained formed up to give it character and develop its training regimen.
What funds do is then support these training practices and continue the ideals.

The PLAAF "ethos" underwent a massive change(along with the entire PLA) after 85, their entire idea of how to fly and fight changed since then. In that they took help from us, from the Russians and anywhere else they could get. Yes, Today's PLAAF is a much different force that it was twenty years ago but that has yet to proliferate across the entire PLAAF(due to its size). So while the pilots of their 4th Generation assets are probably no less than that of any comparable airforce flying the types(or similar).. their 3rd generation pilots are still coming up from the ground.
However, one cannot compare the PLAAF and the PAF on the same plane as both have very different objectives and fighting styles/requirements. For instance, the PAF still focuses a lot on having its pilots train for the turning fight(even i the most unsuited of platforms)...by contrast, pilots from say the RCAF may not be looking into that as much and may be focused on the long range intercept ideals that are a requirement for the over-the-pole threats the RCAF has generally faced throughout its existence.

If you really want to gauge the PAF and are less attuned to "pakistani" hosted links.. then Ill reproduce a post from another neutral(and more frequented by professionals) forum by a veteran USAF pilot who was among those that trained the initial F-16 foriegn cadre..and these are the days of Zia when the PAF was really not that well equipped.


Salute!

If you are not politically-incorrect, do not read the rest of this post.
*****************

In the very early years of the Viper, we trained all the EPG folks, plus the IAF(Israeli), Pakistani and Egyptian folks. Also handled USAF National Guard and Reserve units.

I flew with Pakistani folks during my pilot training back in 1965-65. 16-17 years or so later, I flew with accomplished Pakistani fighter pilots that formed the core of their Viper force.

The original cast at Hill will all tell you (ALL) that the Pakistani folks were more aggressive than the IAF folks we had. Same-oh versus the Egyptian folks.

Jan Bei's question is a great one!

It may not be true today, but except for one of the original Pakistani Viper cadre, all had been instructors all over the mideast. They kept reminding us that they were Muslims, but not Arabs. My own student had taught various Arab folks and had great war stories. For example, when the Emir's grandson screwed up and claimed it was Allah's will, he threw the bullshit flag and told the yute, "OK, then we'll let the plane crash!".

I can't believe that the Pakistani spirit and elan and professionalism has deterioated all that much. But having no current intell from anyone, I can't make an unequivocal statement.

All I know is that I would lead or follow any of the ones we had at Hill in that cadre.

If anyone else here has ever flown with a Pakistani Viper pilot in an actual Viper, please chime in or continue to speculate.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Though PAF training has gone down over the decades in terms of experience of pilots- their flight hours per trainee have dropped, while India's that was low earlier has increased.

Neither did you understand his post, nor did you reply with anything comprehensible either.
The Indian Air Force has not done the same either, yet in my view it is one of the finest air forces in the world. That comes from training constantly for scenarios that involve Air Superiority, SEAD and so on on its own and through training programs and exercises with other airforces. It then takes these ideals and evolves its OWN doctrine and training regimen on air superiority and SEAD. The same goes for the PAF.

The IAF training and logistics has changed quite a bit from 2000 onwards.

Practically it happened because we started training with USAF and some other western forces. Before that our major exposure to international airforces was Russian/Soviet.
The logistics trail and battle management of USAF and others was head and shoulders above what IAF had and managed and was frankly a little shocking for them. So it was quite an exposure. Something that PAF has had for a long time.

Same for training and tactics. Since then IAF actively searches for opportunities to take part in international exercises...and the gap has been narrowed considerably.