PAF & the ramifications of Rafale's sale to India

[MastanKhan]

Hi MK, you doin' alright? Long time......I have to tell you your favorite line as a response to your post. The J-10 saga wasn't about Mushy at all or elated to buying Swedish vs. the Chinese.As you say it all the time, the PAF leadership fukked up ONE more time. The thing was, there was so much trust in the French that the JFT block II would have Mirage 2005-N type avionics, giving is much closer Rafale like capability with Meteor, etc, that they didn't even care to create a backup, just in case. As the history has it, they got screwed at the end just like the 90's!!!! India jumped in and started the Rafale drama and told the French that this would be at the cost of them saying no to Pakistan and that's where the story ends!!!! Pretty stupid and sad how these people take one party and put ALL their weight behind that one party. And cry when things don't workout. No such thing as "Strategic Planning"!!!!

Hi Viper,

Sometimes---when you throw things up in the air---the truth comes out---. I had an inkling---that is what happened----I knew that is what happened---because many a years ago I wrote on this board---that the French system does not look like a go---.

When the french engineers were killed and the pakistanis did not show and remorse and anger at their murder---I told myself---the french are going to pull the plug at the most critical time----.

Because----at firs the french were expecting the airbus deal which was at a very advanced stage and special concessions were being given to pakistan---pakistan pulled out in favor of boeing on a promise that boeing will get them a direct flight to the U S----.

Then not picking up the M2k's or Rafale after the sanctions came off---then not pursuing on the submarine deal after the french had given us the Agosta 90's----.

The writing was on the wall---it was written on the BLUE SKIES---if paf could not read it---it is a shame.

The paf had the money for 72 F16's BLK52---they could have bought 36-48 Rafales----and the JF17 with its French package would have solved the problem.

The problem is----that the Paf does not have car salesmen to think business for them----.

You know how often we package deals with our banks---we will give them 15 good credit customers and they have to buy 3-4 our bad credit customers as well.

Bottomline---fighter pilots----soldiers should not do car deals---.

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi Viper,

Sometimes---when you throw things up in the air---the truth comes out---. I had an inkling---that is what happened----I knew that is what happened---because many a years ago I wrote on this board---that the French system does not look like a go---.

When the french engineers were killed and the pakistanis did not show and remorse and anger at their murder---I told myself---the french are going to pull the plug at the most critical time----.

You know how often we package deals with our banks---we will give them 15 good credit customers and they have to buy 3-4 our bad credit customers as well.

Bottomline---fighter pilots----soldiers should not do car deals---.

Your bottom line is correct. I've said it ALL the times, let the effing SUITS do your deal. Why does the military want to be in front of everyone in uniform when they know the West hates the uniform general trying to sit in front of a democratically and much more powerful president of some Western country. When you learn a game, you learn the rules too, the civilian salesmen in suits is the name of the game. You play it, you get F-16 block 52 to AH1Z and you could've gotten 48 Rafale or M2k-N series (very close to Rafale package capability wise, a little less weight carrying capability but hell of a punch), and add JFT's avionics also M2k-9 too, and you tripled your 4th gen jets!!

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Hi Viper,

Sometimes---when you throw things up in the air---the truth comes out---. I had an inkling---that is what happened----I knew that is what happened---because many a years ago I wrote on this board---that the French system does not look like a go---.

When the french engineers were killed and the pakistanis did not show and remorse and anger at their murder---I told myself---the french are going to pull the plug at the most critical time----.

Because----at firs the french were expecting the airbus deal which was at a very advanced stage and special concessions were being given to pakistan---pakistan pulled out in favor of boeing on a promise that boeing will get them a direct flight to the U S----.

Then not picking up the M2k's or Rafale after the sanctions came off---then not pursuing on the submarine deal after the french had given us the Agosta 90's----.

The writing was on the wall---it was written on the BLUE SKIES---if paf could not read it---it is a shame.

The paf had the money for 72 F16's BLK52---they could have bought 36-48 Rafales----and the JF17 with its French package would have solved the problem.

The problem is----that the Paf does not have car salesmen to think business for them----.

You know how often we package deals with our banks---we will give them 15 good credit customers and they have to buy 3-4 our bad credit customers as well.

Bottomline---fighter pilots----soldiers should not do car deals---.

Pakistan has preferred US planes because of US financing Arrangements

They were all part of the Overall and total Aid Package ; which was available after 9/ 11

US aid to Pakistan is counted as civilian aid and military aid

With France there was no such aid package ; only cash payments

 

[MastanKhan]

Your bottom line is correct. I've said it ALL the times, let the effing SUITS do your deal. Why does the military want to be in front of everyone in uniform when they know the West hates the uniform general trying to sit in front of a democratically and much more powerful president of some Western country. When you learn a game, you learn the rules too, the civilian salesmen in suits is the name of the game. You play it, you get F-16 block 52 to AH1Z and you could've gotten 48 Rafale or M2k-N series (very close to Rafale package capability wise, a little less weight carrying capability but hell of a punch), and add JFT's avionics also M2k-9 too, and you tripled your 4th gen jets!!

Viper,

The french were desperate at that time to sell the Rafales. Their production lines were shutting down to 1-2 aircraft----.

And pakistan had hard hard cash for 72 F16's in 2004----which they ultimately donated for the 2005 earthquake later on.

There are some stupid INDIANS still running around claiming no funds at that time.

The French were desperately looking upto pakistan----to be the first customer---they never anticipated the paf would fall into the same trap for the upteenth time.

The biggest fear that the French had was losing the engineers and technicians who were producing the Rafales----thru layoffs.

No orders meant that the assembly line would be shutoff---and the future of french fighter aircraft would be doomed.

The cleverness of the paf bit the nation hard on the ar-se.

The same stupidity that paf is talking about the chinese avionics package---unproven---the same stupidity they talked about the Rafale at that time---UNPROVEN.

It has been shoved up the paf's----now talk about being proven.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Hi,

This is I believe what happened with the J10---. Because Gen Mushy ordered it---ie---2 sqdrns---and paf being pi-ssed off at Gen Mushy for cancelling the swedish awacs and getting the chiense awacs without the consent of the paf.

Other than that---a sqdrn of a J10 B should have been ordered 4-5 years ago---and then ordered the J10C with aesa.

If not then---then at least 1 1/2 to 2 years ago----the J10C should have been procured. It would have given paf enough time to integrate and get the right package for the aircrafr---.

Paf has really fckd up the NATION one more time----it has compressed all these major purchases to be integrated in a very short time----and forced it to spend a massive amount of funds all at the same time----.

Bad management---bad policy---bad choices---bad analysis---a total lack of direction

Hello All
Thanks for your answer MASTANKHAN.
Yes PAF'S ignorance or bad management cost us much of a time but its never too late if we still let the dream of 150+J31 and like only 36F16 block 52 new (which wont gone happen ) and odd 300+ JF17(avionics still problem) we can meat the time line of year 2020 with J10C(p) there are 4 years yet enough time to make changes and upgrades and integration , if we have a will then there is a way

 

[punit]

Considering the MKI's have such shitty serviceability rates (even though it's "Made in India"), the MKI's have been dealt with PAF's F-16's.

OUR combo of Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 are enough for pakistani F16s !

 

[MastanKhan]

Hello All
Thanks for your answer MASTANKHAN.
Yes PAF'S ignorance or bad management cost us much of a time but its never too late if we still let the dream of 150+J31 and like only 36F16 block 52 new (which wont gone happen ) and odd 300+ JF17(avionics still problem) we can meat the time line of year 2020 with J10C(p) there are 4 years yet enough time to make changes and upgrades and integration , if we have a will then there is a way

Hi,

Paf choses to fail out of habbit---and NO OVERSIGHT---. Out of habbit---it choses defeat from the mouth of success.

J31 is not the solution to paf's problem---but just the begining of bigger problems----because there are holes left open---that have not been filled.

Before they get the J31's----paf needs two other aircrafts----J10C's to compenstae for the F16's and a heavy twin engine strike aircraft---.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Hi MK, you doin' alright? Long time......I have to tell you your favorite line as a response to your post. The J-10 saga wasn't about Mushy at all or elated to buying Swedish vs. the Chinese.As you say it all the time, the PAF leadership fukked up ONE more time. The thing was, there was so much trust in the French that the JFT block II would have Mirage 2005-N type avionics, giving is much closer Rafale like capability with Meteor, etc, that they didn't even care to create a backup, just in case. As the history has it, they got screwed at the end just like the 90's!!!! India jumped in and started the Rafale drama and told the French that this would be at the cost of them saying no to Pakistan and that's where the story ends!!!! Pretty stupid and sad how these people take one party and put ALL their weight behind that one party. And cry when things don't workout. No such thing as "Strategic Planning"!!!!

Hello Sir.
Now India not only have The Rafale but they almost surly have the French Avionics for there LCA Tajas ,
Well I m looking for the reply of those members who use to make fun out of LCA . We like it or not its coming out soon with better French equipment as almost mini Rafale( unless Indian air force do the blunder )

 

[zebra7]

Your bottom line is correct. I've said it ALL the times, let the effing SUITS do your deal. Why does the military want to be in front of everyone in uniform when they know the West hates the uniform general trying to sit in front of a democratically and much more powerful president of some Western country. When you learn a game, you learn the rules too, the civilian salesmen in suits is the name of the game. You play it, you get F-16 block 52 to AH1Z and you could've gotten 48 Rafale or M2k-N series (very close to Rafale package capability wise, a little less weight carrying capability but hell of a punch), and add JFT's avionics also M2k-9 too, and you tripled your 4th gen jets!!

Bhaiya Viper0011 Hold your horses a little bit.

1. Could you tell me what avionics PAF was interested from the french. Mirrage 2005 Avionics for the JFT, and which will make it equivalent to the Mirrage 2005. LMOH.

2. The Real power of Rafale/Mirrage 2005/9 is not the Aesa MMR, or Domicle pod, but the Modular Mission Computer Artitecture. PS in Rafale there are 18 Modular Line replacable computer, thus making the sensor fussion, possible with 5th Gen warware capability, the same things, which our Indian Fanboys are unable to Digest that each computer is 50 times more powerful than the Mission computer onboard LCA Tejas (imagine 50 X 18 times computational capability), and they too think their LCA Tejas is close to Rafale, So I can only smile for them.

 

[Wolf]

Hi Viper,

Sometimes---when you throw things up in the air---the truth comes out---. I had an inkling---that is what happened----I knew that is what happened---because many a years ago I wrote on this board---that the French system does not look like a go---.

When the french engineers were killed and the pakistanis did not show and remorse and anger at their murder---I told myself---the french are going to pull the plug at the most critical time----.

Because----at firs the french were expecting the airbus deal which was at a very advanced stage and special concessions were being given to pakistan---pakistan pulled out in favor of boeing on a promise that boeing will get them a direct flight to the U S----.

Then not picking up the M2k's or Rafale after the sanctions came off---then not pursuing on the submarine deal after the french had given us the Agosta 90's----.

The writing was on the wall---it was written on the BLUE SKIES---if paf could not read it---it is a shame.

The paf had the money for 72 F16's BLK52---they could have bought 36-48 Rafales----and the JF17 with its French package would have solved the problem.

The problem is----that the Paf does not have car salesmen to think business for them----.

You know how often we package deals with our banks---we will give them 15 good credit customers and they have to buy 3-4 our bad credit customers as well.

Bottomline---fighter pilots----soldiers should not do car deals---.

Exactly, future weapons procurement should comprise experts both local and foreign and i am dead sure most of the people like you are very good experts in contemporary military technologies. By experts i mean both from civil and military top brass, civilian experts may be inducted after security clearance in the process. Furthermore, a darbar where all the pilots may be invited including young ones to give their input on future acquisition of jets for PAF. After this ground work, a tender may be floated and the companies should compete. This competition will allow the international companies to offer extra who want the deal. Then a decision should be made which may be communicated to government along with the reasons of doing so. AND then go for acquisition. Concentration of decision making power in one or few of top brass is too damaging to endure in the long run.

I believe that even now at this stage, if PAF offers a 15 billion dollar deal spread over 3-5 years, french may ditch the indians.

 

[Falcon26]

The only way to counter the Rafale deal is for PAF to acquire the EuroFighters one way or another. Pakistan will need to reach out to its Arab allies like Saudi Arabia to help finance portions of the purchase with Pakistan financing the rest.

The idea that the Rafale can be countered with FC-31 is laughable. The FC-31 is an unproven, technologically inferior and even PLAAF isn't interested in them.

 

[Cornered Tiger]

Pakistan can only opt for Su-35 or Eurofighter Typhoon to meet its Air Superiority & Maritime Strike requirements.

J-10C can not be used for Maritime Strike purposes, because of its single engine design in context of sea based environment.

Su-35 cannot be compared to Rafale at High Speeds, maneuverability wise, As in dog fights, High Speed Maneuverability is crucial.

So here we are left with Typhoon, which is a good Air Superiority Fighter and can be use as Maritime Strike Platform.
Considering the requirements, PAF needs to have 3 Sqns of such platform. It will require an amount of 7 Billion Dollars at minimum. Unit cost of Typhoon T3 is 101 Million Dollars. So it will cost 5.45 Billion Dollars just for Planes.
Heck of money for PAF. But we can set timelines for deliveries and payments over the period of 5 to 6 years

 

[Benign Persona]

F 16 use against India will not be authorized by US so please wake up.

who give a f**k to America when there will be a war.

 

[Viper0011.]

Bhaiya Viper0011 Hold your horses a little bit.

1. Could you tell me what avionics PAF was interested from the french. Mirrage 2005 Avionics for the JFT, and which will make it equivalent to the Mirrage 2005. LMOH.

2. The Real power of Rafale/Mirrage 2005/9 is not the Aesa MMR, or Domicle pod, but the Modular Mission Computer Artitecture. PS in Rafale there are 18 Modular Line replacable computer, thus making the sensor fussion, possible with 5th Gen warware capability, the same things, which our Indian Fanboys are unable to Digest that each computer is 50 times more powerful than the Mission computer onboard LCA Tejas (imagine 50 X 18 times computational capability), and they too think their LCA Tejas is close to Rafale, So I can only smile for them.

You answered your own question in number two bullet. The PAF was in talks with the French (and VERY confident) that they would get an advanced Radar integrated with Meteor, Mica and compatible with French weapons in works at that time in the future. Dessault,MBDA and Thales manufacture different systems like avionics, missiles, etc, etc. A Mirage 2k9 like package (strictly talking about Radar and Weapons) and later on a French engine wouldn't make the JFT ON PAR with Rafale (that's stupid to think about). But, it would give a serious advanced capability like the M2K has, in terms of advancd radar, weapons, etc (vs. the Chinese option) to the PAF.

If you don't know about stuff, ASK the people who know. Writing this "hold your horses" shiit is like Modi talking about the Avoinics of Rafale, which isn't his area of expertise nor can he understand that. In fact, it would make him look like a fool. There are a lot of other knowledgeable members who actually KNOW these things. You guys should learn instead of getting into a Childish like competition on topics where you have 0 knowledge. I see it on here ALL the time.

 

[zebra7]

You answered your own question in number two bullet. The PAF was in talks with the French (and VERY confident) that they would get an advanced Radar integrated with Meteor, Mica and compatible with French weapons in works at that time in the future. Dessault,MBDA and Thales manufacture different systems like avionics, missiles, etc, etc. A Mirage 2k9 like package (strictly talking about Radar and Weapons) and later on a French engine wouldn't make the JFT ON PAR with Rafale (that's stupid to think about). But, it would give a serious advanced capability like the M2K has, in terms of advancd radar, weapons, etc (vs. the Chinese option) to the PAF.

If you don't know about stuff, ASK the people who know. Writing this "hold your horses" shiit is like Modi talking about the Avoinics of Rafale, which isn't his area of expertise nor can he understand that. In fact, it would make him look like a fool. There are a lot of other knowledgeable members who actually KNOW these things. You guys should learn instead of getting into a Childish like competition on topics where you have 0 knowledge. I see it on here ALL the time.

So, if you understand the technical features of the French embebded inside the french planes, could you tell me what avionics does, PAF was interested for JFT. If I have to speculate or guess, I will say RDY-3 MMR or RDM+ Radar, Totem 3000 INS with ring laser gyroscope, Mission Computer, Targetting Pod, RWD, LWS, MAWS, then the question comes to my mind, then why was the JFT capability was so much shown big by the follow Pakistani members.
You are saying Meterors, and if I add AIM 132 ASHRAM and MICA, what would be the cost of the JF-17 ??
Why would China will allow the upgrade, which will barred its armaments BVR, WVR, Antiship Missile non compatable.

P.S the Upgrade of the Mirrage 2000 H to 2005 standard was 43.9 per aircraft.

So, can you list the avionics that PAF is interested for JFT.and give me source that indicates PAF is interested in RBE 2 AA Radar, and mind it it woun't be an easy or cheaper job, and would replace almost all electronics from the JFT, whether its Mission Computer, or Display Computer, Weapon Store managements, and sensors and navigation systems.

If you don't know about stuff, ASK the people who know. Writing this "hold your horses" shiit is like Modi talking about the Avoinics of Rafale, which isn't his area of expertise nor can he understand that. In fact, it would make him look like a fool. There are a lot of other knowledgeable members who actually KNOW these things. You guys should learn instead of getting into a Childish like competition on topics where you have 0 knowledge. I see it on here ALL the time.

Question is do you know what does MLDU means ??
Or rather simple question for you, what is SPECTRA ??
Which organization in Pakistan is capable to work with the Thales of France for the IMA Avionics Architecture design & development for JF-17.

And recommending me to ask who knows, then why not name the person, specially Pakistani Member who knows this stuff and the questions I asked you, you are free to consult with them.