PAF Should Stop Purchase of Any New F 16's

[RazorMC]

...
I was reading an article that the usaf has completey gone in for training to fight bvr with a shoot and scoot mentality----pulling out old pilots from engage shoot and merge habbits to observe in the silent mode---launch at lethal range multiple missiles and scoot---look back from when out of range of enemy and re-assess and if possible then re-engage for another launch---.

The U S has stealth aircraft---but take it out of the picture---it has agile beam aesa---which can target without showing its position---it can launch the missile in the silent mode---and let the missile find its lock---its bvr missile can fly farther and have a longer NEZ than enemy missiles---. Hit on target ratio is very high.

Today's bvr's are not the grand fathe'rs bvr missiles---they are absolutely deadly at their extreme or close to extreme ranges---.

So---even a JF 17 with an agile beam aesa and sd12 is an extremely deadly fighter aircraft---.

Interesting points.

But I disagree with the last part if we're looking at the competition. The JF-17 with those capabilities can prove deadly against 4th gen fighters, but 4.5th and 5th gen fighters are a different story.
They can get a lot closer to PAF aircraft without being noticed, fire missiles and be off before we can even track them.

 

[Danish saleem]

Hi,

Paf should stop any further purchase of the F 16's. With the availability of the J 10B with aesa---there a=is no reason for the Paf to go any further with the F 16 than where it is.

The F 16's have served their purpose well---it has been a great workhorse for the Pakistani defence forces----but it does not make any sense to decline the J 10B---.

Aesa radar is a game changer for any fighting force----it is a massive force multiplier---. All the weapons that the J 10 would need to use are being used by the JF 17's. With a 1000 TR modules---the Chinese aesa is supposedly as good as the sabr aesa for the F 16----sabr aesa is not available to pkistan.

This change should be made keeping in view the drama that was created by Pres Obama regarding Osama Bin Laden.

It is time for the Paf to change directions. The cost of the J 10 would be slightly less than the F 16 but the weapons systems equally potent and a radar far exceeding the one on the F 16.

It will also be making a statement to the U S---you have played us for long---it seems like your and our interests are not in the same parallels anymore---you have used every opportunity to slam us at every turn and corner for mistakes and errors in judgement that you could blame on us---.

Maybe you can have a partner in Iran----but for now----let us step away for a little while so that we can look at our issues and problems without any pressure from you and you can look at the your concerns without and attachment with us.

but we will never stop purchasing these birds, because of American influence in our Armed Forces.,

 

[shah1398]

I can see some of our friends lamenting that we didnt accept the J-10s an year ago when they were offered withe AESA radar. First of all i find no event when and where we were offered J-10s by China . J-10 has recently matured to extent we can call it a potent fighter but before that even China had kept it as a secret till it reached some level of operationalisation. Yes if we ask for it they would give it to us but right now we are concentrating more and more on Thunder program. Few years before there was a hick up for China too that as initially Israel had co developed this aircraft with China and it bore much resemblance to Israeli Lavi too (the aircraft didnt see the light in the end). Israeli factor refrained China from offering it to any other country including Pakistan. But now the current J-10 is bears no mark of that co design and China had brought its own systems with time.Yes we have this option av now.

 

[Windjammer]

@MastanKhan, Sir, albeit i understand where you are coming from but under the circumstances, that's an impossible solution. PAF has been operating the F-16 for over thirty years now and it has been the spearhead of the force for the same period. Our pilots have mastered it to the extent that it can counter anything out there for foreseeable future.
The JF-17 induction is well under-way and according to my information, the PAF is content and very much occupied with the Thunder project. Introducing another new platform now is not viable hence the same source tells me that albeit the J-10 is on the PAF shopping list and it has test flown it but unless there's some extra ordinary development, we may not see the J-10 being inducted for several years however more F-16s including the option for further Block-52s is very much on the cards.

 

[shah1398]

but we will never stop purchasing these birds, because of American influence in our Armed Forces.,

Sir Much of our leading and efficient systems is Armed Forces esp PAF are/were American.Be it F-16s or C-130s, Tweeties or AH-1 Cobra (PAA), all gave superb services. We have French Mirages and Chinese F-7P/PGs and now K-8s, JF-17 etc...But looking at the history we were more than happy with the performance of each and every American war machine esp F-86 Sabres than any other. If you call this the Influence of America then I would be more than happy to be influenced with more and more of it.

 

[bhola singh]

Hi,

Paf should stop any further purchase of the F 16's. With the availability of the J 10B with aesa---there a=is no reason for the Paf to go any further with the F 16 than where it is.

The F 16's have served their purpose well---it has been a great workhorse for the Pakistani defence forces----but it does not make any sense to decline the J 10B---.

Aesa radar is a game changer for any fighting force----it is a massive force multiplier---. All the weapons that the J 10 would need to use are being used by the JF 17's. With a 1000 TR modules---the Chinese aesa is supposedly as good as the sabr aesa for the F 16----sabr aesa is not available to pkistan.

This change should be made keeping in view the drama that was created by Pres Obama regarding Osama Bin Laden.

It is time for the Paf to change directions. The cost of the J 10 would be slightly less than the F 16 but the weapons systems equally potent and a radar far exceeding the one on the F 16.

It will also be making a statement to the U S---you have played us for long---it seems like your and our interests are not in the same parallels anymore---you have used every opportunity to slam us at every turn and corner for mistakes and errors in judgement that you could blame on us---.

Maybe you can have a partner in Iran----but for now----let us step away for a little while so that we can look at our issues and problems without any pressure from you and you can look at the your concerns without and attachment with us.

What happened dude, you are american,...did the IRS levy your account or something for cheating?

 

[ZooZoo]

Still J-10 doesn't have mature weapons for air-air war...

What did you said... ?? You don't know what will happen next

 

[Eagle Claw]

Hi,

Paf should stop any further purchase of the F 16's. With the availability of the J 10B with aesa---there a=is no reason for the Paf to go any further with the F 16 than where it is.

The F 16's have served their purpose well---it has been a great workhorse for the Pakistani defence forces----but it does not make any sense to decline the J 10B---.

Aesa radar is a game changer for any fighting force----it is a massive force multiplier---. All the weapons that the J 10 would need to use are being used by the JF 17's. With a 1000 TR modules---the Chinese aesa is supposedly as good as the sabr aesa for the F 16----sabr aesa is not available to pkistan.

This change should be made keeping in view the drama that was created by Pres Obama regarding Osama Bin Laden.

It is time for the Paf to change directions. The cost of the J 10 would be slightly less than the F 16 but the weapons systems equally potent and a radar far exceeding the one on the F 16.

It will also be making a statement to the U S---you have played us for long---it seems like your and our interests are not in the same parallels anymore---you have used every opportunity to slam us at every turn and corner for mistakes and errors in judgement that you could blame on us---.

Maybe you can have a partner in Iran----but for now----let us step away for a little while so that we can look at our issues and problems without any pressure from you and you can look at the your concerns without and attachment with us.

You are intermixing things here and there !
First of all I strongly Disagree that J-10B is Cheaper than F-16 Block 52+ !
F-16 Block 52+ costs round about 50-55 million USD per piece !
Where as J-10B's Expected Price is Round about 60-65 million USD !
Yes J-10B has AESA but the Radar that F-16 Block 52+ has is also not Bad !
Its PESA with alot of Range !
Secondly J-10B is not a Battle proven platform !
F-16 has records, is one of the most reliable platform in the history of Aviation !
PAF has Experience of More than 30 years on F-16s where as for J-10B, we would start building Combat and Mission Skills and tactics of PAF's Pilots from 0 ground !
The Best Option for PAF currently is buying used F-16 A/Bs and MLU them to upgrade them to Block 50 Standards !
Along with this !
Purchase of F-16 Block 52+ should be proceeded !
There is absolutely no need to invest money on J-10B because it provides approximately similar capabilities as compare to F-16 Block 52+ which comparatively is cheaper in price !
If PAF went for J-10B, its not Just that we only have to purchase Aircraft !
We would also have to install its maintenance factory, along with spares, with new weaponry hence PAF would have to install a complete new Setup which in case of F-16s, we already have hense will consume alot of money if PAF went for J-10B !
According to me, PAF should Just Purchase F-16s and save money for the future investment in 5th Generation Stealth Aircraft or 4++ Generation Aircraft Rather wasting it on J-10B !
Talking about Sabr Radar !
Well if we place demand for those radar !
We might possibly get those !
As long as we are paying for it, no one should have any issue !

 

[Sine Nomine]

@MastanKhan lo ge kush ho jao,these peoples will not get your words those 76 planes no matter how good they are have little chance to stand against IAF if IAF deploys whole of Su fleet and for sure enemy can do it.
F-10 Vanguard of PAF.

 

[airmarshal]

I knew some people are always but hurt. FMS is Foreign Military Sale, I think a 12 year old on this forum knows that. What that means in terms of Pakistan and a few other countries, is that the US provides FINANCING to get these weapons by diverting some money allocated for certain countries. Pakistan gets weapons under FMS and that's how they got Bell helicopters recently, and many other defense articles throughout decades.

EDA is Excess Defense Articles, meaning weapon systems that have finished their depreciation period and some have outlived their lease terms or expected life according to the US standards. These may be very well take care of, at times, would have low flying miles, etc, and can serve other countries for many years to come. EDA's are primarily provided to allies including NATO and non-NATO allies like the UAE, Pakistan, etc. These require payments if the FMS option isn't applicable. But the cost of the EDA weapon systems is usually 40% or more below the brand new models.

And EDA are as good as new as Us has very high maintenace standards.

 

[araz]

@MastanKhan, Sir, albeit i understand where you are coming from but under the circumstances, that's an impossible solution. PAF has been operating the F-16 for over thirty years now and it has been the spearhead of the force for the same period. Our pilots have mastered it to the extent that it can counter anything out there for foreseeable future.
The JF-17 induction is well under-way and according to my information, the PAF is content and very much occupied with the Thunder project. Introducing another new platform now is not viable hence the same source tells me that albeit the J-10 is on the PAF shopping list and it has test flown it but unless there's some extra ordinary development, we may not see the J-10 being inducted for several years however more F-16s including the option for further Block-52s is very much on the cards.

I have also read some mutterings to this effect. The fact remains that at this point in time with available infrastructure it is much more economical to induct F16s, both MLUed and New, than J10. If it does materialize then the purchase of J10 B would be in the 2018-2020 bracket. Whether the fighter would still retain its utility at that time or the game would have moved on to another level is something that needs to be seen.

 

[I FLY HIGH]

first max no of available F16 must be procured and A/B must be MLUed , meanwhile work on jf17 block 3 should be on fast tracked and should be able to fly first block 3 in two years from now . After that the option for J10 is still on , I think in the longer run we have to induct J10 , Because F16 wont be in large numbers and J10 can play a role of front line fighter and fill the number to 100 too which could make PAF a real teethful Airforce .

 

[princefaisal]

F-16 is a true fighter aircraft and still pose a serious threat for Su-30 & Rafale. American technology is considered as the best quality product and F-16 is already proven in various wars. Specification and performance parameters of the aircraft & its weapons varies, but almost matches in American & European equipments. Although F-16 is old, but aerodynamically its design is still superior than many contenders. Similarly its electronics, radar, engine & weapons are also superior.

Priority should be to get more MLUd F-16s to reach its numbers to 150 and convert all of them to Block-60 standard with installation of AESA and integration of AIM-9x. But if F-16's availability is doubtful, then it is better to go for 80 J-10C to match the number ratio with India.

 

[A2Z]

first max no of available F16 must be procured and A/B must be MLUed

If Pakistan can get more F-16 then why don't they try to get F-16V upgrades rather than MLU.

 

[airmarshal]

It would be prudent to not compare Chinese with American military technology.

Americans are far far ahead still. China might be catching up but still its quite far.

As for F-16 compared with Chinese platforms, I would say no comparison. Simply because American military platforms are proven and have a pedigree in technology that Chinese still cant match.