PAF Should Stop Purchase of Any New F 16's

[fanna4paf2]

if pakistan need some thing then it will like A-10 a good bomber like b-52 no more f-16. AMERICAN play good game in world first policy is never give anything to pakistan but if pakistan testing or trying to buy something like that from other resourses then american ready to give and earn money.

like gunship helicopter pakistan go russia china turkey at the end when america understand now pakistan can get they offer gunship helicopter which he refuse before same like j-10b now they are ready for giveing more f-16

so plz make new friends

 

[Viper0011.]

do you understand the difference between FMS and EDA??

When did FMS become free? It stands for Foreign Military Sales, not free military store...

I knew some people are always but hurt. FMS is Foreign Military Sale, I think a 12 year old on this forum knows that. What that means in terms of Pakistan and a few other countries, is that the US provides FINANCING to get these weapons by diverting some money allocated for certain countries. Pakistan gets weapons under FMS and that's how they got Bell helicopters recently, and many other defense articles throughout decades.

EDA is Excess Defense Articles, meaning weapon systems that have finished their depreciation period and some have outlived their lease terms or expected life according to the US standards. These may be very well take care of, at times, would have low flying miles, etc, and can serve other countries for many years to come. EDA's are primarily provided to allies including NATO and non-NATO allies like the UAE, Pakistan, etc. These require payments if the FMS option isn't applicable. But the cost of the EDA weapon systems is usually 40% or more below the brand new models.

 

[graphican]

If AESA is the reason behind for opting J-10B, then our Vipers can be upgraded to AESA in no time. If Rafael end up in two years to our east, we can upgrade to AESA in a month time if Northop Grumman video above is true. Even F-16 A/B can be modified as per their claim. Watch links above. Sorry available on YouTube only.

For USA under new geopolitical and improving economic situations, Pakistan is evolving from being a "dependent state" to a "partnering state". This upgrade in relationship is opening up new possibilities.

We are also lucky that our friend China and new acquaintance Russia is able to provide or substitute the technology for which we previously totally dependent on USA. Take recent example; USA knew we are about to get Turkish, Chinese or Russian attack helicopters and they happily offered us their top of the line Copra models - which were not on the offer before. We need to develop a similar situation for AESA where we have more options to choose from and you will find Americans jumping up and approaching us to get theirs instead.

You are only deprived or refused as long as you don't have capacity of your own. But when you turn resourceful enough, countries know you will eventually get the technology so why shouldn't it be theirs where they make money and also deepen their influence on you.

 

[MastanKhan]

For USA under new geopolitical and improving economic situations, Pakistan is evolving from being a "dependent state" to a "partnering state". This upgrade in relationship is opening up new possibilities.

We are also lucky that our friend China and new acquaintance Russia is able to provide or substitute the technology which we previously totally dependent on USA. Take recent example; USA knew we are about to get Turkish, Chinese or Russian attack helicopters and they happily offered us their top of the line Copra models - which were not on the offer before. We need to develop a similar situation for AESA where we have more options to choose from and you will find Americans jumping up and approaching us to get theirs instead.

You are only deprived or refused as long as you don't have capacity of your own. But when you turn resourceful enough, countries know you will eventually get the technology so why shouldn't it be theirs where they make money and also deepen their influence on you.

Hi,

That is what I am saying---if paf gets the J10B with aesa---it makes it easier to get it from the U S---. That is why they made a bad mistake for not accepting the 18 J 10's with aesa a year ago---a bad bad mistake.

 

[MilSpec]

FMS is Foreign Military Sale, What that means in terms of Pakistan and a few other countries, is that the US provides FINANCING to get these weapons by diverting some money allocated for certain countries. Pakistan gets weapons under FMS and that's how they got Bell helicopters recently, and many other defense articles throughout decades.

Wow,

the query was quite simple and did not need personal remarks, but then again, member of your esteem can rarely do without such rhetoric.
They got Bell Helicopters through FMS with financing for free?
Pakistan got ISAF used articles on the account military aid, most likely EDA or FMA article (READ NOT FMS), like it has about all of it's AH1 Fleet along with it's 600 APC and OPH Boats.
But the It has never gotten F16's in a EDA/FMA tag.

Pakistan paid for all the peace gate f16's (+ Clinton Wheat ), none came free... You implying that F16's through FMS are Free is pretty much insulting the country you cheer for, but then again....

 

[Viper0011.]

Wow,

the query was quite simple and did not need personal remarks, but then again, member of your esteem can rarely do without such rhetoric.
They got Bell Helicopters through FMS with financing for free?
Pakistan got ISAF used articles on the account military aid, most likely EDA or FMA article (READ NOT FMS), like it has about all of it's AH1 Fleet along with it's 600 APC and OPH Boats.
But the It has never gotten F16's in a EDA/FMA tag.

Pakistan paid for all the peace gate f16's (+ Clinton Wheat ), none came free... You implying that F16's through FMS are Free is pretty much insulting the country you cheer for, but then again....

None of your crap put in this post makes sense. Read my post again, use the little area given to you by God, in between your ears and trust me, magic called comprehension will happen. Its very apparent that I've stepped on the Indo-Pakistanis fake ego. So enjoy the hurt. FMA and FMS can be interchanged in terms of financing in many different ways. When the US provides aid to countries and they happen to be allies, there are multiple ways to allocate funds towards different purchases. From energy, agriculture to advanced weapon systems.....it's how a deal is structured. Let go of the little dictionary and abbreviations and focus on the three lines above.

Where in any of my posts did you see me calling out the 600 APC's or OPH boats or F-16's, etc? Again, if you can't comprehend a post, try not to act so silly that its embarrassing. Someone actually gave you a "think tank" title. Or is it "Tanked Think"???

 

[ziaulislam]

Nobody is arguing withe the affectivity of F-16. Before F-16 was F86 Sabre, and before that P-51 Mustang, more war proven than F-16. But there is a limit to an airframe and the amount of upgrades it can recieve. The US has already stopped making parts for F-16 and soon they will stop the production lines , so do you think that PAF will be able to maintain its fleet of aging F-16 well after 2020. At that point we will not get parts not because of embargos but unavailabilities, and we cannot even make a landing gear for F-16. Why do you think that there are no blocks of the viper after 60? Tha airframe has reached its upgradation limit. And dont think for one second that kamra will produce a block 70 in the future.
After 2020 our enemies will have a big fleet of 4+ generation aircrafts just waiting to do another 1971 on us, along with advanced air dominance 4+ generation aircrafts.

P.S. it will remain in TOP 10 after 2020 but only in history books.

New f-16s are still being made, what makes u think parts will not be available? I think f-16 may get orders even after 2020. Already it has orders till 2018.

 

[MilSpec]

None of your crap put in this post makes sense. Read my post again, use the little area given to you by God, in between your ears and trust me, magic called comprehension will happen. Its very apparent that I've stepped on the Indo-Pakistanis fake ego. So enjoy the hurt. FMA and FMS can be interchanged in terms of financing in many different ways. When the US provides aid to countries and they happen to be allies, there are multiple ways to allocate funds towards different purchases. From energy, agriculture to advanced weapon systems.....it's how a deal is structured. Let go of the little dictionary and abbreviations and focus on the three lines above.

Where in any of my posts did you see me calling out the 600 APC's or OPH boats or F-16's, etc? Again, if you can't comprehend a post, try not to act so silly that its embarrassing. Someone actually gave you a "think tank" title. Or is it "Tanked Think"???

I will refrain from commenting on your intelligence.

But let me simplify it for you....

Pakistan has gotten a lot of things through FMA/EDA.... that includes the mentioned items....

Pakistan Has never gotten any F16's out of FMA/EDA aid or military assistance from US.

Pakistan has paid for all of the peace gate FMS transfers.

Your understanding of FMS as you explained will finance free f16's is wrong, disingenuous and actually insulting to pakistan.

Hopefully that makes it clear.

@Oscar @Donatello This respected member is saying FMS F16's come free of cost ... Please correct me If I am wrong.

 

[graphican]

Hi,

That is what I am saying---if paf gets the J10B with aesa---it makes it easier to get it from the U S---. That is why they made a bad mistake for not accepting the 18 J 10's with aesa a year ago---a bad bad mistake.

Yes agree!

We also have 4 Chinese L-15 trainners which China had offered us for free. As per my knowledge, we are not employing them for training yet but its good we have a free training platform as an option parked in the garage.

For J-10s, it looks stupid not to accept a great platform when it is coming for free. But another thought is that may be they were not free unless we had agreed to purchase another squadron.

I have a question from informed member, is there any design edge which sweptback wing type crafts have over delta wings? If there is one, pitching F-16s and JF-17s against Rafale might be strategically advantageous than pitching delta design J-10s against delta design Rafael. Just thinking.

 

[Thunder.Storm]

if pakistan need some thing then it will like A-10 a good bomber like b-52 no more f-16. AMERICAN play good game in world first policy is never give anything to pakistan but if pakistan testing or trying to buy something like that from other resourses then american ready to give and earn money.

like gunship helicopter pakistan go russia china turkey at the end when america understand now pakistan can get they offer gunship helicopter which he refuse before same like j-10b now they are ready for giveing more f-16

so plz make new friends

Pakistan is not paying for this deal. Its in collision support fund.

 

[ziaulislam]

I will refrain from commenting on your intelligence.

But let me simplify it for you....

Pakistan has gotten a lot of things through FMA/EDA.... that includes the mentioned items....

Pakistan Has never gotten any F16's out of FMA/EDA aid or military assistance from US.

Pakistan has paid for all of the peace gate FMS transfers.

Your understanding of FMS as you explained will finance free f16's is wrong, disingenuous and actually insulting to pakistan.

Hopefully that makes it clear.

@Oscar @Donatello This respected member is saying FMS F16's come free of cost ... Please correct me If I am wrong.

half of the MLU was paid via FMA

 

[Mohsin123]

New f-16s are still being made, what makes u think parts will not be available? I think f-16 may get orders even after 2020. Already it has orders till 2018.

Lockheed Martin is too invested in the F-35 programme and has a lot of orders to fill. They will stop production lines before 2020 and certainly not beyond 2020. I read some articles 2 or three months ago, can't seem to find them but one can be a good read

i cannot seem to post the link but you can read an article in national defence magzine september 2014 issue.


My point is that we have had so much problems maintaining the F-16s in the past decade or so, because of embargos that its time we should seriously consider new options. Just saying inducting a new aircraft will take years for us to fully integrate and get used to is just shying away from future threats. Then it means we wont induct any new aircraft with the same logic. Start today and we will have a dependable platform in 5 years.

Army's approach in procuring new equipment is future oriented even navy has started looking to the future , but for some reason PAF cannot seem to look beyond the present. US is never going to give us the SABR , heck even they are offering us AH-1Z's without the MMW radar.

 

[MastanKhan]

Lockheed Martin is too invested in the F-35 programme and has a lot of orders to fill. They will stop production lines before 2020 and certainly not beyond 2020. I read some articles 2 or three months ago, can't seem to find them but one can be a good read

i cannot seem to post the link but you can read an article in national defence magzine september 2014 issue.


My point is that we have had so much problems maintaining the F-16s in the past decade or so, because of embargos that its time we should seriously consider new options. Just saying inducting a new aircraft will take years for us to fully integrate and get used to is just shying away from future threats. Then it means we wont induct any new aircraft with the same logic. Start today and we will have a dependable platform in 5 years.

Army's approach in procuring new equipment is future oriented even navy has started looking to the future , but for some reason PAF cannot seem to look beyond the present. US is never going to give us the SABR , heck even they are offering us AH-1Z's without the MMW radar.

Hi,

Maintenance issues were only from shortage of parts during sanctions and nothing else---.

As the U S does not want to give us the SABR---for that reason we need to go with the J 10's----. If then the U S decides to give us the SABR---then at least we will have a 100 F 16's with aesa with the possibility of 50 more---.

Inducting the J 10 will not be a major issue---it is already in service----its weapons are same as that of the JF 17---Pakistan has some input in the J 10---and now is the perfect time to start with the J 10----. Because by the time the neighbor gets the rafale---we will be up and running---.

Yes agree!

We also have 4 Chinese L-15 trainners which China had offered us for free. As per my knowledge, we are not employing them for training yet but its good we have a free training platform as an option parked in the garage.

For J-10s, it looks stupid not to accept a great platform when it is coming for free. But another thought is that may be they were not free unless we had agreed to purchase another squadron.

I have a question from informed member, is there any design edge which sweptback wing type crafts have over delta wings? If there is one, pitching F-16s and JF-17s against Rafale might be strategically advantageous than pitching delta design J-10s against delta design Rafael. Just thinking.

Hi,

This coming war between india and Pakistan will have a very high attrition rate of fighter aircraft----. Which---as a matter of fact----most of the advanced air forces are actively waiting to see to plan their own moves----.

I was reading an article that the usaf has completey gone in for training to fight bvr with a shoot and scoot mentality----pulling out old pilots from engage shoot and merge habbits to observe in the silent mode---launch at lethal range multiple missiles and scoot---look back from when out of range of enemy and re-assess and if possible then re-engage for another launch---.

The U S has stealth aircraft---but take it out of the picture---it has agile beam aesa---which can target without showing its position---it can launch the missile in the silent mode---and let the missile find its lock---its bvr missile can fly farther and have a longer NEZ than enemy missiles---. Hit on target ratio is very high.

Today's bvr's are not the grand fathe'rs bvr missiles---they are absolutely deadly at their extreme or close to extreme ranges---.

So---even a JF 17 with an agile beam aesa and sd12 is an extremely deadly fighter aircraft---.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

New f-16s are still being made, what makes u think parts will not be available? I think f-16 may get orders even after 2020. Already it has orders till 2018.

In case the sanctions are removed, Iran might want to have the ordered F-16s or even place some more orders. This indeed would take the production well after 2020. There is also Iraq which might also want to increase the number of F-16's.

 

[Immanuel]

its a matter of opinion nothing delusional. American military hardware is an industrial benchmark but if China's clone shows the exact results in the tests then I dont see any problem.[/QUOTE]

China's clone showing exact results