PAF Should Stop Purchase of Any New F 16's

[Sage]

However, what happens when we are at war with India again or another nation that US wants to protect?

They placed sanctions on us in '65 and '71 so we couldn't repair damaged fighter jets that we procured through them.

What Pakistan needs is transfer of technology agreements for the domestic production of components particularly things like the engines but also avionics in case the country is ever at war and is required to manufacture them since imports are not an option.

Turkey has been there to help us ....all this time ...not every understanding is made public but don't worry about these sanction thing anymore ....Only that PAF should this time place a good order of AMRAAM and AIM-9X ...!

 

[Rank]

again HATE single engine ... betta to start working and getting knowledge - involve in J31.... dual enginre powerfull aircraft

 

[duhastmish]

Pakistan should go for j11 or j16. These are potent platform.
Pack lot of punch. This will give them leverage to keep f16 option open. If us supply some more block 60.

Pakistani airforce lack diversity all the aircraft are similar. A heavy fighter will give them a new meaning.

I am sure china will supply them fighter which ever they point finger at. So why not quality stuff.

 

[sathya]

@MastanKhan

Osama episode happened long back.., after that pak bought Jordan F16 s
That means some sorta understanding happened between USA and Pak

Why sudden change of heart ?

 

[Sine Nomine]

Osama episode happened long back.., after that pak bought Jordan F16 s
That means some sorta understanding happened between USA and Pak

Why sudden change of heart ?

They are not good as new blk-52 babies.

 

[Paksanity]

PAF probably has an appetite for 36 odd new aircraft. If J-10B then it won't be more than that in my opinion. J-10B is newly developed and systems may not have matured you yet. None out of us here can tell if AESA in J-10B works flawlessly. Only Chinese know it and if there are issues which need to be ironed out then PAF will have to wait a little more. If there are no issues then it might present a good option. I don't think China will transfer technology just yet. After all this is their latest most advanced tech. US does not transfer technology either. Europeans and Russians do. As an immediate measure F-16 presents good option in my opinion. 36 Blk 61 or higher will calm down our Eastern neighbour and will be quickly absorbed given our experience with aircraft. Add MLU upgrade of Jordanian F-16 and you have got sufficient force to deter any misadventure.

Another good option could be EFTs. They are good aircraft but a better deal will have to be negotiated. Typhoons are quite a match to Rafael in aerial combat.

Let's not forget Gripen here. This little aircraft has some neat tricks up its sleeves. Gripen NG has some unique advantages in networked environment (swedes pioneered datalink technology). It also integrates seamlessly with our AEW&C aircraft. Transfer of technology is also offered by Swedes.

With any of these options PAF won't go wrong but F-16s present immediate solution. You can later add a third type by reducing JF-17 numbers by two squadrons or so. These can be J-10s, EFTs, Gripen or something else. Hopefully if money becomes available we may be able to afford them down the lane.​

 

[Donatello]

.
Hi,

We are better off with BLK 60/61 if it s available.

The thing is that numbers are an issue---a 350 unit air force won't work---it is too lean and has many weak links---. With the current scenario---paf needs to be closing in on 500---550 number of aircraft---

What aircraft they are going to purchase and integrate---?????

No money. 500 aircraft force will require at least 30 billion USD in the next 10 years, not easy to come by.

 

[Arsalan]

As I stated--this Osama / Obama drama has given Pakistan a renewed life of 10 + years with the U S. That is a good enough time to develop the J 31----.

While i agree with almost all the things you have mentioned i cannot understand what you mean by?? How this news will help renew our relations?? i have studied the whole article and all it implies is that we were cheated somehow and that we were in it with them at the start. Now this may be news for you me and the rest but not for US and Pak gov. So what is in this that you think will spark new life in Pak-Us relations??

 

[niaz]

Phased Array Antenna means that focussing of the beam is done by feeding an array of emitters with a single high power feed at appropriate phase relationship. Here the phase relationship is fixed, so the beam points at a fixed direction with respect to the array. The beam is scanned by mechanically moving the whole array

Electronically Scanned Array means the phase relationship is electronically varied to scan the beam without physically moving the antenna array. Eliminating/reducing mechanical scanning requirement is definitely a plus. PAF Block 52 is fitted with AN/APG-68 Radar. Which is a pulse Doppler radar with mechanical scanning limited to 120 degree search. Desert Falcon on the other hand is fitted with AN/APG-80 with electronic scanning (AESA) No doubt AESA is more reliable and more difficult to jam hence more effective. This makes desert Falcon a better performer.

However, Radar on its own does not make an aircraft better than its rivals. For example suppose we manage to fit AESA in Mirage -III, it would still not be able to compete with F-16-52. I am not saying that PAF does not need AESA fitted aircraft. My point is that having experience with an aircraft has inherent advantages that could outweigh benefits from AESA radar.

PAF has already has trained maintenance staff and fights with hundreds of flying hours on the F-16’s. Induction of additional F-16’s would go without a hitch and with very little additional requirements in maintenance & inventory costs.

In my humble opinion, PAF should induct more F-16’s (block -52 or Mlu’d) and instead of J-20, go for a 5th generation fighter such as J-31. Naturally, it would take few more years. However, if we were to induct J-10/J-20 with EASA radar; in addition to the cost of additional spare parts inventory; it would be 2 to 3 couple years before PAF has proficient pilots and maintenance personnel.

I would like to ask "Is J-10/J-20 so much better than F-16 -52 that PAF should introduce a new aircraft while it waits for J-31 to mature"?

 

[Rocket science]

If we compare both F-16 and J-10b, then I Would prefer F-16 block 60.............. cause
F-16 E/F: The F-16E (single seat) and F-16F (two seat) are newer F-16 variants. The Block 60 version is based on the F-16C/D Block 50/52 and has been developed especially for the United Arab Emirates (UAE). It features improved AN/APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, avionics, conformal fuel tanks (CFTs), and the more powerful GE F110-132 engine

Hi,

Paf should stop any further purchase of the F 16's. With the availability of the J 10B with aesa---there a=is no reason for the Paf to go any further with the F 16 than where it is.

The F 16's have served their purpose well---it has been a great workhorse for the Pakistani defence forces----but it does not make any sense to decline the J 10B---.

Aesa radar is a game changer for any fighting force----it is a massive force multiplier---. All the weapons that the J 10 would need to use are being used by the JF 17's. With a 1000 TR modules---the Chinese aesa is supposedly as good as the sabr aesa for the F 16----sabr aesa is not available to pkistan.

This change should be made keeping in view the drama that was created by Pres Obama regarding Osama Bin Laden.

It is time for the Paf to change directions. The cost of the J 10 would be slightly less than the F 16 but the weapons systems equally potent and a radar far exceeding the one on the F 16.

It will also be making a statement to the U S---you have played us for long---it seems like your and our interests are not in the same parallels anymore---you have used every opportunity to slam us at every turn and corner for mistakes and errors in judgement that you could blame on us---.

Maybe you can have a partner in Iran----but for now----let us step away for a little while so that we can look at our issues and problems without any pressure from you and you can look at the your concerns without and attachment with us.

J-10B is more economical.
J-10B is faster.
F-16 E/F Fighting Falcon is better armed.
Both aircraft are better dogfighter. both planes are equally good in dogfight, but I appreciate the F-16E is capable of better because NATO pilots qualified pilots are better than the Chinese, the AIM-9X missile is better than PL-8/9 (even AIM-120C-7 is also better than PL-12). In BVR F-16 will win even though the J-10 is equipped with DSI (copy F-35) and AESA radar (the F-16E AESA radar but also make sure it will be better technology China), I believe in America's RCS reduction technology than China, F-16E with ECM within internal, can be equipped with stealth pod of F/A-18E/F (Enclosed Weapons pod EWP), J-10B AESA radar is still one unknown

Now purchasing J-10b instead of purchasing Eurofighter, Rafale. or modern jet else would be foolishness

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

PAF probably has an appetite for 36 odd new aircraft. If J-10B then it won't be more than that in my opinion. J-10B is newly developed and systems may not have matured you yet. None out of us here can tell if AESA in J-10B works flawlessly. Only Chinese know it and if there are issues which need to be ironed out then PAF will have to wait a little more. If there are no issues then it might present a good option. I don't think China will transfer technology just yet. After all this is their latest most advanced tech. US does not transfer technology either. Europeans and Russians do. As an immediate measure F-16 presents good option in my opinion. 36 Blk 61 or higher will calm down our Eastern neighbour and will be quickly absorbed given our experience with aircraft. Add MLU upgrade of Jordanian F-16 and you have got sufficient force to deter any misadventure.

Another good option could be EFTs. They are good aircraft but a better deal will have to be negotiated. Typhoons are quite a match to Rafael in aerial combat.

Let's not forget Gripen here. This little aircraft has some neat tricks up its sleeves. Gripen NG has some unique advantages in networked environment (swedes pioneered datalink technology). It also integrates seamlessly with our AEW&C aircraft. Transfer of technology is also offered by Swedes.

With any of these options PAF won't go wrong but F-16s present immediate solution. You can later add a third type by reducing JF-17 numbers by two squadrons or so. These can be J-10s, EFTs, Gripen or something else. Hopefully if money becomes available we may be able to afford them down the lane.​

Gripen were refused and still will be because India is still looking at these aircraft because they share the same engine with the LCA and the Rafale order has also been reduced from 126 to just 36. So Gripen has a much greater chance of getting the lions share in Indian market.

EFT is an air superiority Fighter so it could be out of the question because F-15 could be preferred because it share the same infrastructure of F-16's. The issue is F-15's operating cost is way to high.

F-16's would always be the first choice they can be in any block as long as they have gone through the MLU.

PAF has Mirage rebuild facility it would be easier to get the M2K-9's which are almost at par with the Rafales but the only problem is PAF is not interested it them atleast for the time being.

The question that PAF might be considering is how much can the M2K-9 be upgraded later on?
This thought might take them towards J-10 on any other aircraft that has a potential to further evolve.

 

[ashok321]

Hi,

Paf should stop any further purchase of the F 16's. With the availability of the J 10B with aesa---there a=is no reason for the Paf to go any further with the F 16 than where it is.

The F 16's have served their purpose well---it has been a great workhorse for the Pakistani defence forces----but it does not make any sense to decline the J 10B---.

Aesa radar is a game changer for any fighting force----it is a massive force multiplier---. All the weapons that the J 10 would need to use are being used by the JF 17's. With a 1000 TR modules---the Chinese aesa is supposedly as good as the sabr aesa for the F 16----sabr aesa is not available to pkistan.

This change should be made keeping in view the drama that was created by Pres Obama regarding Osama Bin Laden.

It is time for the Paf to change directions. The cost of the J 10 would be slightly less than the F 16 but the weapons systems equally potent and a radar far exceeding the one on the F 16.

It will also be making a statement to the U S---you have played us for long---it seems like your and our interests are not in the same parallels anymore---you have used every opportunity to slam us at every turn and corner for mistakes and errors in judgement that you could blame on us---.

Maybe you can have a partner in Iran----but for now----let us step away for a little while so that we can look at our issues and problems without any pressure from you and you can look at the your concerns without and attachment with us.

These kind of decisions are not taken emotionally.
But before anything, stop 1.5 billion dole from them.
Let me see if you can.

 

[Mohsin123]

@MastanKhan
This is one of the most valid questions raised by somebody in this forum

Sir,
Like you, i cannot understand PAF's love affair with F-16. There is a thing called moving on. Lets face it F-16 is an obsolete or soon to be obsolete air craft in the world and still we want to embrace it by giving the same old rhetorical argument that we have experience on it for decades. Our enemies are moving to next generations and we just cannot let go of our "mehbooba". After 10 years again there will be the same argument that we know this aircraft in and out like the back of their hands. Good luck fighting 5th gen!!!!

What 18 more F-16s are going to do to our capabilities , i fail to understand. Instead of paying for these F-16 this money should be funneled into blk III jf-17 with a chinese aesa, in the short term and in the long term aquiring some heavies with 5th gen multirole. Although chinese avionics are not on par with western ones but with the speed which they are evolving its a matter of time before they catch up. We do not have a looming threat of an all out invasion, may be in future, yes. Our current inventory is sufficent for our internal operations.

Its baffling to see some people talking about buying blk 60 like its some commodity which you can buy at a superstore.
In order to get those blk 52s we had to plead on our knees to the US.

What do you think sir, is blk IIIs jf-17 in the near future with chinese aesa is a better option than J-10b(if we can also get a reliable chinese engine for JF-17s)?

 

[ashok321]

The beam is scanned by mechanically moving the whole array.

Beam is not scanned.
It is scattered.

@niaz

You have lifted many parts from keypublishing forum and presented them as your own.
AESA Vs Phased Array

Shame on you, because exact sentences came from Hindu Indian forumites.
You do not know the ABC of wave length.

 

[Tipu7]

PAF will never prefer any other air craft over F16 like Thunder or J10b. F16 is war proven bird and very well known for PAF. we cannot leave them like that. As long as new blocks of Falcons r coming its future is bright in Pakistan. J10b is not a replacement of F16. make separate room for it. Induct F16 Blk 60 and ask force americans to provide us AESA in falcons. go for J10b too. and also Jf17 blk II ASAP. just get rid of Mirage Junk and old F7...................

F-16 is an obsolete or soon to be obsolete air craft in the world

disagree. Falcons still have room for upgradations. and if Falcons new blocks keep on coming like that it will still be included in top10 fighters even after 2020