PAF participates in "Red Flag" and "Green Flag"

[toppys]

Thats why pakistani airforce have a better and clear edge toward - one on one fighter jet comparision with india.

they have better american equipments and they keep doign these excersice. where as indian are saving money and slacking in their tents eating tangoori chicken ............

good going Pakistan air force . another good step and money extremely well spent.

We always have more fighters than pak so one on one doesn't help. Unless 50% of PAF fighter pilots become aces by training , I feel we need not worry. In all history of PAF vs IAF i think there are 5 people who have done more than 2 kills.

 

[PAFAce]

We always have more fighters than pak so one on one doesn't help.

That is a fundamentally flawed thought. One on one's are not as practical as they once were, but India's numerical superiority in fighter will never actually matter in the air. Consider the following:

- India will never have all its fighters in the air at one time, and there will never be a scenario when Pakistan's fighters will face a force 3 or 4 times their size. Worst case scenario, we will be out-numbered 2-to-1. This is certainly manageable, and the PAF trains specifically to fight outmatched. Exercises such as Red Flag can really help prepare a pilot for challenges like these.

- India has an extremely long border with China and a very long coast, both of which it must protect at all times. This means that at least 30-40% of your fighter force will be deployed with the specific purpose of guarding your airspace against enemies other than Pakistan. Pakistan, on the other hand, will focus only on India since neither Afghanistan, Iran nor China pose any serious aerial threats to Pakistan, and our coastline is far more manageable in size.

- India's fighters, it is a well known fact, are high-maintenance. Your arsenal of Russian-made fighters will never allow you to achieve a sortie rate per plane anywhere close to what Pakistan can and will generate with its F-7s and F-16s. The JF-17s haven't been around for long enough for us to make any intelligent claims regarding its durability and reliability.

- India will, at least at the beginning of an aerial war, have to worry about two primary tasks. Maintaining air-superiority over Indian airspace, while simultaneously striving to gain an edge over Pakistani airspace. For Pakistan, the task will be much simpler earlier on. Repel the onslaught of fighters and attack aircraft, and once the enemy's capability to continue the offensive is fractured, launch a wave of targeted attacks on their air bases. In other words, whereas India will have to worry about doing many thing at once, Pakistan will have the advantage of taking things one at a time. Hence, whereas the Indian Air Force's aircraft will be divided in goal, Pakistan Air Force's will be united.

Anyway, there are a few other reasons why India's numerical aerial superiority only appears daunting on paper, but the ones I mentioned are the strongest points. That's not to say that you will not have a serious advantage over Pakistan; every Pakistani knows that war with India will not be a cake-walk in any of the three primary media of war-fighting; However, the claimed "superiority" will likely be proven to be just that, a claim.

Anyway, let us get back on topic here.

 

[blain2]

sir as per my knowledge of the upgrades of the existing fleet was to be donein tow key phases,
the MLU,
the STAR upgrade.

now while USA was to go with the MLU, they agreed to provide some MLU kits so that we can get our planes upgraded to MLU standard for whereever we want.
for this phase PAF chosed Turkey and as you said, may be PAC itself is to use these kits for upgrades.

the second phase will be the STAR upgrades that are signed with TAI and will begin from 2013 onwards.

well frinds this is a recollection of information scattered all over the previous pages and more details can be found in required in older posts.

regards!

Arsalan,

STAR is the structural upgrade to prolong the airframe life which typically would be done prior to the avionics work up for the MLUs. Each aircraft undergoing MLU would typically (for PAF) go through STAR first. Both STAR and MLU would be done in one go after the aircraft leaves Pakistan and when it returns to Pakistan, it would have both of these upgrades done.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

That is a fundamentally flawed thought. One on one's are not as practical as they once were, but India's numerical superiority in fighter will never actually matter in the air. Consider the following:

- India will never have all its fighters in the air at one time, and there will never be a scenario when Pakistan's fighters will face a force 3 or 4 times their size. Worst case scenario, we will be out-numbered 2-to-1. This is certainly manageable, and the PAF trains specifically to fight outmatched. Exercises such as Red Flag can really help prepare a pilot for challenges like these.
.

If we are talking about current scenario then yes you are right. But in the past, IAF never faced any threats from PLAAF since they were mainly concentrated to their eastern and northern sectors. In 65 and 71 war all of IAF were pitched against PAF in either active or reserve form.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

In all history of PAF vs IAF i think there are 5 people who have done more than 2 kills.

WRONG. PAF has WELL OVER 10 pilots who have 2 kills or more.

 

[blain2]

If we are talking about current scenario then yes you are right. But in the past, IAF never faced any threats from PLAAF since they were mainly concentrated to their eastern and northern sectors. In 65 and 71 war all of IAF were pitched against PAF in either active or reserve form.

PAFACE does have a valid point in that IAF has always maintained readiness on their border with China with part of their fleet and have not been able to bring the entire fleet for operations against Pakistan due to contingency reasons.

However even then, IAF can maintain a 2:1 edge in terms of platform against PAF.

 

[pak avatar]

Also our cruise missiles plus urs will effectively make all forward airbases difficult to use thereby helping paksitan secure its air space and prevent indian air supremency

 

[blain2]

Also our cruise missiles plus urs will effectively make all forward airbases difficult to use thereby helping paksitan secure its air space and prevent indian air supremency

If equipped with area denial submunitions then yes, otherwise ALCM like Ra'ad are for very targeted strikes.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

PAFACE does have a valid point in that IAF has always maintained readiness on their border with China with part of their fleet and have not been able to bring the entire fleet for operations against Pakistan due to contingency reasons.

However even then, IAF can maintain a 2:1 edge in terms of platform against PAF.

In 1971 IAF order of battle outnumbered PAF. In eastern sector it was 10:1.
on western sector it was 4:1.

 

[anathema]

A very nice and well written post Ace. My points below.

- India will never have all its fighters in the air at one time, and there will never be a scenario when Pakistan's fighters will face a force 3 or 4 times their size. Worst case scenario, we will be out-numbered 2-to-1.

Yes i agree with you principally. However this was the case before or atleast it is not valid hundred percent now. Why ? (Please note that i speak for myself - so no links and neither this is a confirmed operational doctrine)
IAF wouldnt mind Diverting all its aircraft or atleast majority of its a/c against PAF-- for the first few days of war. This will ensure that PAF faces overwhelming odd's. And withing first few days (3-4) PAF would be or maybe on the verge of exhausting its combat aircraft.
IAF can then divert some of its a/c against china border.

Also for a/c like Su 30 it doesnt matter where they are stationed, with an amazing endurance - they can be diverted to Chinese border if Chinese change their mind. Also AWACS will constantly monitor Chinese airspace for any threats -- the moment IAF notices something is amiss -- they would start diverting a/c's to chinese border. So in a net centric warfare scenario -- IAF can afford to take this risk IMO .i.e maintain absolutely bare minimum a/c's on chinese border and order other squadrons for PAF challenge.

- India has an extremely long border with China and a very long coast, both of which it must protect at all times. This means that at least 30-40% of your fighter force will be deployed with the specific purpose of guarding your airspace against enemies other than Pakistan. Pakistan, on the other hand, will focus only on India since neither Afghanistan, Iran nor China pose any serious aerial threats to Pakistan, and our coastline is far more manageable in size.

True no denying that !

- India's fighters, it is a well known fact, are high-maintenance. Your arsenal of Russian-made fighters will never allow you to achieve a sortie rate per plane anywhere close to what Pakistan can and will generate with its F-7s and F-16s. The JF-17s haven't been around for long enough for us to make any intelligent claims regarding its durability and reliability.

A fact or speculation ? Also how can you claim that F7 whos Mig 21 derivative will generate more sorties than the Bison itself ?

- India will, at least at the beginning of an aerial war, have to worry about two primary tasks. Maintaining air-superiority over Indian airspace, while simultaneously striving to gain an edge over Pakistani airspace. For Pakistan, the task will be much simpler earlier on. Repel the onslaught of fighters and attack aircraft, and once the enemy's capability to continue the offensive is fractured, launch a wave of targeted attacks on their air bases. In other words, whereas India will have to worry about doing many thing at once, Pakistan will have the advantage of taking things one at a time. Hence, whereas the Indian Air Force's aircraft will be divided in goal, Pakistan Air Force's will be united.

Just as PAF trains to meet with a superior airforce quantitively -- IAF would for sure have considered a two front war scenario and would have planned for them. So to say that IAF will have to be worried about more things is a laymans argument. IAF will have one goal just as PAF which will be to achieve air superiority and give ground troops support they ask for. If China interferes then IAF would have to adapt or progress according to the way they have planned.

Anyway, there are a few other reasons why India's numerical aerial superiority only appears daunting on paper, but the ones I mentioned are the strongest points. That's not to say that you will not have a serious advantage over Pakistan; every Pakistani knows that war with India will not be a cake-walk in any of the three primary media of war-fighting; However, the claimed "superiority" will likely be proven to be just that, a claim.

It will always be a claim till a war if it ever happens. However the things that IAF has planned for future does appear to be a very daunting task for PAF to match. However take the 'plan' word with truck load of salt , i dont like our government's attitude to armed forces -- everything takes time and nothing goes as planned.

 

[toppys]

 

[anathema]

8. I am not questioning that PAF needs to go to redflag, for us it is waste ,a folly to allow them to study our skills and equipment. Unless we plan to fill from uncles plane in which case who will be the enemy?

DACT excercises such as RedFlag are never waste !!! It was a good learning excercise for us.

Agreed that we had problems with data links, communication, etc. But there would have been learnings from that. For example - Techinicians, maintenance crews might have learned how other crews around the world maintain the aircraft ? Also we learned how hopelessly interoperable IAF and USAF are ! So pretty much sure IAF would have had some thoughts on how to overcome it. Furthermore we got a chance to go up against RSAF F16 - Everytime we go against F16 , either we may end up learning something OR we may end up practicing something that we know !! F16 is premier a/c that we will be facing in future in event of WAR.

For PAF -- This excercise would have been absolutely wonderfull. They would have got a chance to see how excercises on this scale are conducted/managed. They would have compared their performance with others. Pretty much they would have learned something better for them to incorporate in their learnings. Green Flag is even more better for PAF.

So to say it was a waste would be a folly ! I highly encourage you to read to DACT excercises between American F18 and Polish Mig 29 , a very nice read.

 

[toppys]

In 1971 IAF order of battle outnumbered PAF. In eastern sector it was 10:1.
on western sector it was 4:1.

PAF on east did very well despite that but still it is a lost cause because of the numbers.

 

[toppys]

DACT excercises such as RedFlag are never waste !!! It was a good learning excercise for us.

Agreed that we had problems with data links, communication, etc. But there would have been learnings from that. For example - Techinicians, maintenance crews might have learned how other crews around the world maintain the aircraft ? Also we learned how hopelessly interoperable IAF and USAF are ! So pretty much sure IAF would have had some thoughts on how to overcome it. Furthermore we got a chance to go up against RSAF F16 - Everytime we go against F16 , either we may end up learning something OR we may end up practicing something that we know !! F16 is premier a/c that we will be facing in future in event of WAR.

For PAF -- This excercise would have been absolutely wonderfull. They would have got a chance to see how excercises on this scale are conducted/managed. They would have compared their performance with others. Pretty much they would have learned something better for them to incorporate in their learnings. Green Flag is even more better for PAF.

So to say it was a waste would be a folly ! I highly encourage you to read to DACT excercises between American F18 and Polish Mig 29 , a very nice read.

How uncle uses F-16 is not how PAF will use it. It is just a machine and people make the difference. Unless we train with PAF pilots.

 

[blain2]

In 1971 IAF order of battle outnumbered PAF. In eastern sector it was 10:1.
on western sector it was 4:1.

Any data to quantify the fighter vs fighter 4:1 ratio? It would be educational for all here including myself to see this breakdown. Eastern sector ratio is a given due to the fact that only 14 sqn was out there against pretty much the entire IAF air command catering to that theater. However against West Pakistan, IAF resources were spread more evenly to cater to Pakistani and Chinese threats.