PAF participates in "Red Flag" and "Green Flag"

[anathema]

How uncle uses F-16 is not how PAF will use it. It is just a machine and people make the difference. Unless we train with PAF pilots.

No - regardless of Pilots or the air force which operates them; each machine has its own strengths or weaknesses ! Sustained turn rate, climb rate, agility is all the same - doesnt matter which pilot operates them.
For ex- during DACT excercises between Mig 29 and F18 USAF found that if they ever get into a turning fight with Mig29 then F18 would be at a huge disadvantage ! Similarly during Yom Kippur war, Israeli's found that if you stay behind and just below a Mig 21 , they will not be able to see you -- this is due to poor visibility of a Mig 21. This helped them in their Aerial combat.

 

[blain2]

For PAF -- This excercise would have been absolutely wonderfull. They would have got a chance to see how excercises on this scale are conducted/managed. They would have compared their performance with others. Pretty much they would have learned something better for them to incorporate in their learnings. Green Flag is even more better for PAF.

This goes for both the IAF and PAF (actually I must say less so for the PAF than the IAF, because PAF has been attending significant multination exercises at a very capable range in Turkey against very many European and US air forces.

The overall benefit to both PAF and IAF is that you learn how to better evaluate yourself. You get an idea as to how the first world airforces are measuring their own skills and what tools are in use.

For PAF, the Griffins got more IFR training in 14 days than they have had over the past 2 years since the initial IFR training occurred. So such things are the tangible benefits. Other things include getting qualified mission commanders out of the exercise. DACT sort of stuff happens year round in country too where PAF F-16s are pitted against other F-16s and platforms. So DACT is not the only experience to take away from this.

 

[blain2]

No - regardless of Pilots or the air force which operates them; each machine has its own strengths or weaknesses ! Sustained turn rate, climb rate, agility is all the same - doesnt matter which pilot operates them.
For ex- during DACT excercises between Mig 29 and F18 USAF found that if they ever get into a turning fight with Mig29 then F18 would be at a huge disadvantage ! Similarly during Yom Kippur war, Israeli's found that if you stay behind and just below a Mig 21 , they will not be able to see you -- this is due to poor visibility of a Mig 21. This helped them in their Aerial combat.

Anathema,

The DACT between Mig-29 and F/A-18 happened more than 6-8 years ago. When this happened, the F/A-18 had none of the newer systems like the JHMCS and AIM-9x available to it to fully exploit in a turning fight against the Mig-29. The Mig-29s on the other hand had first generation HMS integrated which allowed them more employment opportunities than the F/A-18. With equal systems on the Hornet, the Mig-29 has its work cut out.

 

[anathema]

Anathema,

The DACT between Mig-29 and F/A-18 happened more than 6-8 years ago. When this happened, the F/A-18 had none of the newer systems like the JHMCS and AIM-9x available to it to fully exploit in a turning fight against the Mig-29. The Mig-29s on the other hand had first generation HMS integrated which allowed them more employment opportunities than the F/A-18. With equal systems on the Hornet, the Mig-29 has its work cut out.

True i understand that ! But i was giving example of how DACT exercises help pilots/air forces learn very small but valuable things. During these DACT excercises it can be safely assumed that IAF would learn about F16 capabilities and Su 30 strengths and weakness against F16.

 

[dbc]

No - regardless of Pilots or the air force which operates them; each machine has its own strengths or weaknesses ! Sustained turn rate, climb rate, agility is all the same - doesnt matter which pilot operates them.
For ex- during DACT excercises between Mig 29 and F18 USAF found that if they ever get into a turning fight with Mig29 then F18 would be at a huge disadvantage !

Rubbish,see HUD footage of a F/A-18 in a turning fight with a MIG-29, the F/A-18 had no trouble getting inside the turn. The first and second shot was inverted pulling 3.2 G's. Pay close attention to the AoA indicator on the HUD marked by ALPHA.

The F-18 is highly maneuverable uninformed members reach that conclusion by reading rubbish on the internet and propagate that rubbish here.

 

[Donatello]

Rubbish,see HUD footage of a F/A-18 in a turning fight with a MIG-29, the F/A-18 had no trouble getting inside the turn. The first and second shot was inverted pulling 3.2 G's. Pay close attention to the AoA indicator on the HUD marked by ALPA.

The F-18 is highly maneuverable uninformed members reach that conclusion by reading rubbish on the internet and propagate that rubbish here.


YouTube - F/A-18 Vs MiG-29 II

Thanks!

F-18 if had any trouble turning, might be because of it's increased weight load that it may be carrying, which also means that two fighters, MIG 29 and F-18 will never be equally loaded, maybe one is carrying more external fuel tanks than the other.......as in one is on a strike mission while the other on interception.


Anyway, just like F-15s were out run by F-16s in dog fights.....you can never actually predict the true outcome. Too many variables.



Thanks for the video though.

 

[anathema]

Rubbish,see HUD footage of a F/A-18 in a turning fight with a MIG-29, the F/A-18 had no trouble getting inside the turn. The first and second shot was inverted pulling 3.2 G's. Pay close attention to the AoA indicator on the HUD marked by ALPA.

The F-18 is highly maneuverable uninformed members reach that conclusion by reading rubbish on the internet and propagate that rubbish here.


YouTube - F/A-18 Vs MiG-29 II

Did you even bother to read what i wrote or the context in which i wrote ? Or you just jumped when you saw that i had remarked on F18 performance ? Take it easy Lady, i respect F18 and its combat record. However this was a conclusion from a DACT excercise conducted between Swiss and german AF.


I am pasting the excerpt of the article below ! The article is quite old, i was merely explaining the importance of DACT excercise.
Note :- this article no longer holds good since hornet has also HMS...when this excercise was conducted Mig proved troublesome due to HMS that Mig had.

German MiG-29s deployed to Switzerland to perform air combat training missions with the F/A-18C/D Hornets.


Koen Aerts/Aero Topics analyses the 'Alpine close encounters' : German Luftwaffe Fulcrums against the fighter pilots of Switzerland's Hornet-equipped Staffel 11 "Tiger" Squadron.

Although primarily tasked with a role in the German air defense system, the 'MiG-29 drivers' (of Germany) saw themselves evolve into a very different player. Obsessively trained to counter Russia's latest generation fighters, the ultimate Fulcrum confrontation was - and still is - every Western fighter pilot's dream. Consequently JG 73 was overwhelmed with requests for squadron exchanges to act as a sparring partner in aerial duels. With help from the most experienced German AMRAAM operating F-4F pilots, new MiG-29 tactics were developed, based on western ACM - Air Combat Maneuvering - techniques and AIM-120 characteristics. Russia's latest generation fighter combined with the use of Western tactics and knowledge made JG 73's aircrew without doubt the best MiG-29 pilots in the world.

During the first training week basic fighter maneuvering, i.e. air combat within visual range, was practiced and the dogfight intensity was gradually built up during the first five days from 1v1 to 2v1, concluding in 2v2 on 26 April. Like many MiG opponents during previous DACT exercises, the Swiss underestimated the Fulcrum's qualities at close range. Like the Hornet, the MiG-29 has great low speed maneuverability,
which allows it to move its nose around in slow-speed fights.

The aircraft's greatest advantage is the AA-11 Archer, a Russian-built infra-red guided missile, which in combination with the pilot's helmet-mounted sight makes the Fulcrum the most feared lethal weapon. This helmet-mounted sight consists of a monocle over the left eye and sensors on helmet and in the cockpit to detect the pilot's head position. Just by looking at the target the pilot can activate a firing solution and the thrust-vectored Archer can be launched up to 45° off the MiG's nose. This superiority is only effective if the enemy is seen as soon as possible.

One of the Fulcrum's disadvantages is the visibility from the cockpit. The Hornet drivers soon realized that the MiG-29 pilots had difficulties 'checking six'. Since an Archer launch includes illuminating the target until impact, the pilot has to keep his head turning towards the target, a very tiresome procedure when performed in heavy G dogfights.

Thirdly, the Fulcrum's cockpit avionics entail considerable workload with a lot of hands-off switches and limited HUD information. When looking inside his cockpit, the MiG-29 pilot is not able to continuously monitor his tactical situation. These elements gave the Hornet drivers the means to tackle the MiG-29's splendid close-range superior performance and partly overcome the Archer off-boresight launch authority.

The Fulcrum's greatest disadvantage was unveiled during the second week, when 4v4 BVR (beyond visual range) 'hops' were performed. Although the MiG-29's radar has a 120° detection capability, only a 50° cone can be used for target detection and tracking. Clearly, this does not give the pilot a good overview of the tactical situation. Since the radar has to be manually steered towards the target's direction,
the pilot greatly depends on GCI information to locate the bogey. During lock-on all other contacts are lost and no target altitude, range or speed information is provided.

The Hornet's low maintenance needs - one flight hour equals about 25 man hours of maintenance work - added to the high operational status throughout the exercise. In this field the German counterparts were in for a challenge, since one MiG-29 flight hour requires no less than 80 man hours of servicing. (!!!!)

Daily many DACT 'hops' were scheduled, averaging to about fourteen MiG-29 sorties per day, but these numbers have to be put into perspective. Each mission comprised a maximum of 25 minutes flying, which unveiled the MiG-29's Achilles heel. Being a real gas guzzler, the Fulcrum's autonomy is very restricted and considered a major worry in its air defense task. Mass-produced in a Cold War period, the Russian aircraft was mainly designed for scramble missions to intercept an intruder. Due to its limited autonomy the Fulcrum hardly fits into today's changed geopolitical strategies, where fighter aircraft are tasked with CAP (Combat Air Patrols) missions and long-range fighter escorts.

Although the installation of a centerline external fuel tank (EFT) can increase the aircraft's autonomy, this configuration has numerous downsides. Since the EFT blocks the discharge route of spent ammunition casings, the tank has to be jettisoned when using the 30mm cannon. This configuration also limits the aircraft's speed to 1.5 Mach and disables the activation of speed brakes. To partly overcome these problems modifications to seven single-seaters enabled the use of two 300 gal (1150 litre) under wing pylons. This configuration however limits the Fulcrums maneuverability to 4 G turns.

 

[Donatello]

Did you even bother to read what i wrote or the context in which i wrote ? Or you just jumped when you saw that i had remarked on F18 performance ? Take it easy Lady, i respect F18 and its combat record. However this was a conclusion from a DACT excercise conducted between Swiss and german AF.


I am pasting the excerpt of the article below ! The article is quite old, i was merely explaining the importance of DACT excercise.
Note :- this article no longer holds good since hornet has also HMS...when this excercise was conducted Mig proved troublesome due to HMS that Mig had.

Would you please stop this MIG29 vs F-18 non-sense. This thread is for Red Flag and PAF. Please talk about that.


You are more than welcome to open a thread for any discussion you may desire so.


Thanks!

 

[anathema]

Would you please stop this MIG29 vs F-18 non-sense. This thread is for Red Flag and PAF. Please talk about that.


You are more than welcome to open a thread for any discussion you may desire so.


Thanks!

If doesnt make sense to you then it is non sense ?

Anyways i was pointing out importance of DACT excercises -- anyways i will refrain from posting f18 topics. thanks.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Rubbish,see HUD footage of a F/A-18 in a turning fight with a MIG-29, the F/A-18 had no trouble getting inside the turn. The first and second shot was inverted pulling 3.2 G's. Pay close attention to the AoA indicator on the HUD marked by ALPA.

The F-18 is highly maneuverable uninformed members reach that conclusion by reading rubbish on the internet and propagate that rubbish here.


YouTube - F/A-18 Vs MiG-29 II

Yes indeed F-18 is quite maneuverable. In the Farnbrough air show the F-18 performed very well, it did made some hard tight turns and it actually did just as good as F-16.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Any data to quantify the fighter vs fighter 4:1 ratio? It would be educational for all here including myself to see this breakdown. Eastern sector ratio is a given due to the fact that only 14 sqn was out there against pretty much the entire IAF air command catering to that theater. However against West Pakistan, IAF resources were spread more evenly to cater to Pakistani and Chinese threats.

The IAF units were organised on regional basis, within three operational commands and an independent group. Most of the units were concentrated within the Western Air Command and the Eastern Air Command, of which the later was responsible for supporting the invasion of East Pakistan, while the balance was assigned to the Central Air Command.

Eastern Air Command
HQs at Shillong, near Calcutta
AOC-in-C Air Marshal H.C. Dewan
Sector Jessore (western East Pakistan)
- No.2 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Dum Dum then Amritsar/Ambala (CO Wg.Cdr. Greene)
- No.7 Squadron, 16 Hunter F.Mk.56 & 2 Hunter T.Mk.66, based at Baghdogra; 6 December eight Hunters to Nal, balance of unit to Hindon; on 12 December all aircraft to Pathankot, Chhamb sector (CO Wg.Cdr. Coelho, then Wg.Cdr. Suri)
- No.14 Squadron, Hunter F.Mk.56, based at Kalaikunda (CO Wg.Cdr. Sunderesan)
- No.16 Squadron, Canberra B(I).Mk.58/B.Mk.66, based at Kalaikunda (CO Wg.Cdr. Gautam)
- No.22 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Dum Dum and Kalaikunda, then Calcutta (CO Wg.Cdr. B.S. Sikand)
- No.30 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Kalaikunda (CO Wg.Cdr. V.S. Chadha)
- No.221 Squadron, Su-7BMK, based at Panagarh (until 14 December), (CO Wg.Cdr. Sridharan)
- No.104 Helicopter Unit, SA.316B Alouette III, based at ?
- No.110 Helicopter Unit, Mi-4, based in Dum Dum

Sector Sylhet-Comila (eastern East Pakistan)
- No.15 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based in Gauhati, later to Agartala (CO Wg.Cdr. M.M. Singh)
- No.17 Squadron, Hunter F.Mk.56, based at Hashimara (CO Wg.Cdr. N. Chatrath)
- No.24 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Gauhati (CO Wg.Cdr. R.L. Bhadwar)
- No.28 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Gauhati (CO Wg.Cdr. B.K. Bishnoi)
- No.105 Helicopter Unit, Mi-4, based at Agartala
- No.121 Helicopter Unit, SA.316B Alouette III, based at?

Most of the IAF, a total of 24 fighter and fighter-bomber squadrons, and four squadrons were deployed within the Western Air Command, as follows:

Western Air Command
HQ at New Delhi
CO Air Marshal Minoo Merwan Engineer
Sector Kashmir and Chhamb
- No.1 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Adampur (CO Wg.Cdr. Upkar Singh)
- No.3 Squadron, Mystére IVA, based at Sirsa, then Hindon/Halwara (CO Wg.Cdr. Dogra)
- No.18 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Srinagar (CO Wg.Cdr. Raina)
- No.20 Squadron, Hunter F.Mk.56, based at Pathankot (CO Wg.Cdr. Parker)
- No.23 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Pathankot (CO Wg.Cdr. Mohan)
- No.26 Squadron, Su-7BMK, based at Adampur (CO Wg.Cdr. Batra)
- No.27 Squadron, Hunter F.Mk.56, based at Pathankot (CO Wg.Cdr. Mehta)
- No.31 Squadron, Mystére IVA, based at Hindon/Halwara (CO Wg.Cdr. Trehan)
- No.32 Squadron, Su-7BMK, based at Ambala (CO Wg.Cdr. Manget)
- No.45 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Chandigarh, then Pathankot, finally Nal (CO Wg.Cdr. Anand)
- No.101 Squadron, Su-7BMK, based at Adampur (CO Wg.Cdr. Khanna)
- No.108 Squadron, Su-7BMK, based at Halwara, then Chandigarh (CO Wg.Cdr. Deshmukh)
- No.120 Squadron, Mystére IVA, based at Nal (CO ?)
- No.222 Squadron, Su-7BMK, based at Halwara (CO Wg.Cdr. D’Costa)
- TACDE (one flight), MiG-21FL, based at Amritsar/Ambala (CO Wg.Cdr. Mukerjee)
- TACDE (one flight), Su-7BMK, based at Amritsar/Ambala (CO Wg.Cdr. Mukerjee)

Sector Naya Chor and Ramgarh Desert
- No.10 Squadron, 16 HF-24 Maruts & 2 Hunter T.Mk.66s, based at Uttarlai/Jodhpur (CO Wg.Cdr. Aggarwal)
- No.21 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Uttarlai/Ahmedabad (CO Wg.Cdr. Malik)
- No.29 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Hindon, det. at Uttarlai (CO Wg.Cdr. Swardekar)
- No.122 Operational Training Unit, 4 Hunter F.Mk.56 & T.Mk.66, based at Jaisalmer, (CO Wg.Cdr. D.M. Conquest)
- No.220 Squadron, HF-24 Marut, based at Uttarlai/Jodhpur (CO Wg.Cdr. Dhawan)

Sector Rann of Kutch and Gulf of Kutch
- No.6 Squadron, L-1049 Constellation, based at Poone
- No.35 Squadron, Canberra B.(I).Mk.58/B.Mk.66, based at Poone (CO Wg.Cdr. Badhwar)
- No.47 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Jamnagar/Halwara (CO Wg.Cdr. Gill)
- No.106 Squadron, Canberra PR.Mk.57, based at Agra (CO Wg.Cdr. Thakar)
- JBCU, Canberra (different marks), based at Agra (CO Wg.Cdr. S.Thakar)

Central Air Command
- No.5 Squadron, Canberra B(I).Mk.58/B.Mk.66, based at Agra (CO Wg.Cdr. Talwar)
- No.8 Squadron, MiG-21FL, based at Poone (CO Wg.Cdr. Sen)
- No.9 Squadron, Gnat F.Mk.1, based at Jamnagar, later Halwara (CO Wg.Cdr. Yadav)

- No.107 Helicopter Unit, Mi-4, based in Goa
- No.109 Helicopter Unit, Mi-4, based in Goa
- No.111 Helicopter Unit, Mi-4, based in Goa

Transport Units
- No.11 Squadron, HS.748, based in Palam
- No.12 Squadron, C-119G, based at Chandigarh
- No.19 Squadron, C-119G, based at Chandigarh
- No.25 Squadron, An-12B, based at Chandigarh
- No.33 Squadron, DHC Caribou, based at ?
- No.41 Squadron, DHC Otter, based at Agra, (CO Wg.Cdr. Vashist)
- No.42 Squadron, Il-14, based at Palam
- No.43 Squadron, C-47, based at ?
- No.44 Squadron, An-12B, based at Chandigarh
- No.48 Squadron, C-119G, based at Tezpur
- No.49 Squadron, C-47, based at ?
- No.59 Squadron, DHC Otter, based at ?


source: acig.org



Like i have said, PLAAF was no were near Indian border to pose some sort of threat to India that it would force them to split their fleet by 50-50 for China and Pakistan. But yes some IAF squadron were reserved for chinese factor.
Indian Navy also had Naval combat fighters.

Dont forget PAF had in total 200 combat planes for all of that.

 

[Tshering22]

Well Red Flag is a costly affair for us and cant be done every year. Might be next year who knows. Definitely not this year. This year it is Cope India 2010. We cant spend $10 million every year for those exercises.

Truely said, man. Besides, I think alternate years also gives time enough for IAF to re-inforce anything new we learn from the exercised that have been done. The weirdly funny thing is, we still know only half of our threat perception: PAF.

We have no idea what PLAAF's doctrine would be in case of a conflict so it become even more complex.

 

[Donatello]

If doesnt make sense to you then it is non sense ?

Anyways i was pointing out importance of DACT excercises -- anyways i will refrain from posting f18 topics. thanks.

Don't even get me started.

What you can't seem to understand is that this is a thread for PAF and it's participation in Red Flag and Green Flag.

Not about IAF and it's fighters.
Now what part of it you don't get?

 

[Luftwaffe]

Come back to the topic will you indian discussions in indian section. Mods take notice.

 

[owais.usmani]

NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.-- A crew chief from the 57th Aircraft Maintenance Squadron, Viper Aircraft Maintenance Unit marshals an F-16 assigned to the 422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron to perform a post flight end-of-runway inspection after a Green Flag West 10-9 training mission at Nellis, on August 11, 2010. The 422 TES is training with the Royal Saudi and Pakistan Air Forces during the exercise. Green Flag-West provides a realistic air-land integration training environment for joint forces preparing to support of worldwide combat operations. (U.S. Air Force Photo by Lawrence Crespo)

NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.-- Capt. Andy Labrum, close air support instructor, 549th Combat Training Squadron oversees a debrief session between U.S., Royal Saudi Arabia and Pakistan Air Force pilots and joint terminal attack controllers (JTAC) after a training mission during Green Flag West 10-9 exercise. The coalition aircraft launch from Nellis AFB and fly to the National Training Center in Fort Irwin, Calif. to train on close air support during Green Flag-West. The exercise provides a realistic air-land integration training environment for joint forces preparing to support of worldwide combat operations. (U.S. Air Force Photo by Lawrence Crespo)

NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.-- Royal Saudi and Pakistan Air Force members update their prospective flight line status boards at the Green Flag maintenance operation center (MOC) during the Green Flag West 10-9 exercise at Nellis on August 11. The MOC controllers ensure a smooth transition of all the maintenance activities during daily flying operations. Green Flag-West provides a realistic air-land integration training environment for joint forces preparing to support of worldwide combat operations. (U.S. Air Force Photo by Lawrence Crespo)

NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.-- (top right) Group Captain Hatmi, Pakistan Air Force briefs fellow crew members prior to participating in Green Flag West 10-9 exercise at Nellis on August 11. The U.S. Air Force is hosting the Pakistan and Royal Saudi Air Force's pilots and support personnel during Green Flag-West exercise August 9 - 20 at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev. Green Flag-West provides a realistic air-land integration training environment for joint forces preparing to support of worldwide combat operations. (U.S. Air Force Photo by Lawrence Crespo) ​