PAF JF-17 in Farnborough Air Show 2010

[air marshal]

 

[air marshal]

 

[air marshal]

 

[abaseen99]

engine rd 93 is the advance shape of rd 33 but the problem of smoke still exists

 

[blain2]

I wonder if "smoke" is really a problem? The entire Russian line up of aircraft which includes Su-30/27 and Mig-29/35 series gives off smoke in certain conditions. I do not believe the smoke is let off during the entire flight, but at certain altitudes and certain conditions, it becomes more visible.

In close in combat this may be an issue, however most of the Russian engines in their past fighters like the Mig-21 had the same issues and they did alright in close in fights.

So it is what it is...the engine is solid, works well and the crews like the response times so I think its a minor issue.

 

[Donatello]

I wonder if "smoke" is really a problem? The entire Russian line up of aircraft which includes Su-30/27 and Mig-29/35 series gives off smoke in certain conditions. I do not believe the smoke is let off during the entire flight, but at certain altitudes and certain conditions, it becomes more visible.

In close in combat this may be an issue, however most of the Russian engines in their past fighters like the Mig-21 had the same issues and they did alright in close in fights.

So it is what it is...the engine is solid, works well and the crews like the response times so I think its a minor issue.

Smoke is not an issue. IR missiles lock on the heat source not smoke. Radar Guided ones lock with the help of radio communication. In either case smoke is not an issue.

They experimented with smoke chasing missiles way back, just like we have gas detection robots. The only problem at that height and speed is that smoke disperses rapidly, so you can't really locate a target: It is everywhere!

 

[Donatello]

engine rd 93 is the advance shape of rd 33 but the problem of smoke still exists

Note that the engine was started up cold and from static display on ground.

This smoke is nothing compared to what PAF endured with the B-57s.

Smoke is direct result of some unburnt fuel which i suppose the fuel management system can amend while in level flight and when engine is at optimum operating rpm.

 

[blain2]

Note that the engine was started up cold and from static display on ground.

This smoke is nothing compared to what PAF endured with the B-57s.

Smoke is direct result of some unburnt fuel which i suppose the fuel management system can amend while in level flight and when engine is at optimum operating rpm.

Penumbra,

From what I remember seeing back in the day, issue with the B-57s was the starter cartridge that was used to essentially jump start the aircraft. Once it was in the air, the engines gave very little smoke trail.

 

[blain2]

A quick question is why there is some of rusts on the body (maybe weather is too harsh that damage on materials) and engine seem horribly black & gray mixed with blue including rusts. And how long JF-17s last longer? 20 years?

There is no rust as such on the air frame. The engine exhaust is discoloured because of the residue left on it. Since the exhaust is not covered, it looks unsightly.

 

[hataf]

A quick question is why there is some of rusts on the body (maybe weather is too harsh that damage on materials) and engine seem horribly black & gray mixed with blue including rusts. And how long JF-17s last longer? 20 years?

r u talking about the nozzle . . . . . . . . . .

man this is made of some alloy(that is mixture of minerals like titanium, iron, nickel etc)

because it has to bear very high temperature some about higher than 1200 degree Celsius

and iron melts on 1500 degree Celsius so a country who able to make such an alloy which can resist heat can make the engine for fighter.. thats why only 5-6 countries are making such engines

such colour of the nozol is due to this immence heat. its not rust

and by the way the life of engine is expected to be 2000 hours
and life of airframe is about to be 4000 hours



this is the engine nozzal of j-10

mig-29

 

[abaseen99]

china developed his own engine ws 13 for jf 17 i think chinies have solved this problem in this version and paf also working on this project in china for the very best results.Have u experience the same worse case is in the mig 29.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

the issue of smoke was discussed in the earlier pages of the official thunder thread

-firstly planes don't emit smoke at all throttle settings and speeds.

-secondly even engines that apparently are smoke free actually start emitting smoke at certain throttle settings.

black smoke just indicates that fuel is not being burned completely and signifies the fact that engine and intake design can further be improved to increase performance. if unburned carbon coming out with exhaust gases was such a big problem then mig-29, tornado, and F-4 Phantom would have been regarded as a failed fighters.

and one interesting thing most engineers are familiar with is that when designing a system if you go on improving one performance parameter, most of the time you will deteriorate another one. e.g if you make a system more sensitive, you also make it more unstable. so a compromise has to be made between sensitivity and stability.

Similarly, making engine smoke free can be an easy task but in doing so engineers might end up deteriorating performance of engine. So a bit of smoke for better performance is a good bargain.




my personal assesment is that for now (filhaal) RD-93 is most feasible, cost effective and reliable solution; I find it to be slightly underpowered, but Inshallah when the WS-13 is released (it is slated to be more superior in all respects and parameters anyways) we will have a better low cost and efficient alternative which would be at ZERO risk of delayed/hindered supply; most likely we would be producing, overhauling and maintaining them at domestic PAC facility further down the line though these things take time

 

[Hasnain2009]

the issue of smoke was discussed in the earlier pages of the official thunder thread

-firstly planes don't emit smoke at all throttle settings and speeds.

-secondly even engines that apparently are smoke free actually start emitting smoke at certain throttle settings.

black smoke just indicates that fuel is not being burned completely and signifies the fact that engine and intake design can further be improved to increase performance. if unburned carbon coming out with exhaust gases was such a big problem then mig-29, tornado, and F-4 Phantom would have been regarded as a failed fighters.

and one interesting thing most engineers are familiar with is that when designing a system if you go on improving one performance parameter, most of the time you will deteriorate another one. e.g if you make a system more sensitive, you also make it more unstable. so a compromise has to be made between sensitivity and stability.

Similarly, making engine smoke free can be an easy task but in doing so engineers might end up deteriorating performance of engine. So a bit of smoke for better performance is a good bargain.




my personal assesment is that for now (filhaal) RD-93 is most feasible, cost effective and reliable solution; I find it to be slightly underpowered, but Inshallah when the WS-13 is released (it is slated to be more superior in all respects and parameters anyways) we will have a better low cost and efficient alternative which would be at ZERO risk of delayed/hindered supply; most likely we would be producing, overhauling and maintaining them at domestic PAC facility further down the line though these things take time

Will the WS-13 with high thrust consume more fuel as compared to RD-93? Will it decrease range of Thunder?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

sir, it's still undergoing testing im not sure what the service range of the final result will be; I am aware however that it will have 10% more thrust


http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...powered-ws-13-engine-carries-taxi-trials.html

 

[Hyde]

We are thrilled about JF-17 static display, however.......
these pictures are good examples of some rusts you can notice (second picture clearly), I am a bit surprised that it is too early starting rusts/browns dry already on these parts. It must solved immediately.

there was no rust on the plane StealthQL-707PK. I saw it very closely, did not notice any such thing. It could just be a bad camera lens or dust due to air pressure. It was parked in the ground remember?

Look at the same plane from the lens of my camera

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I think i did not share this picture before

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