PAF can counter India’s new war doctrine, says air chief

[Irfan Baloch]

Sorry but those Chinese Su30 or the old Junks which NATO uses are a class apart from what Russia, India and Malaysia fields.
Its not only the PAF who hides its tactics most of the air forces around the world do the same... the question what remains is how strong is the tactics and what is their number... since in a war you'd be picked stimulated and countered withing half a dozen engagements... and yes we have supercomputers to do that.

I sometimes surprise myself how much good a mind reader I am. ( I just knew what the response will be).
Nothing can replace the real thing my boy, no one can argue that.

but the reason for exercise is to get as close as you can get to the real thing. otherwise whats the point? exercising with Chinese SU30s helped us to build up the basic parameters to design our strategies, the difference still remains but that cant be helped.


although I did mention that fact but it missed your attention and you bombarded the MKI unique equipment package.

and Please, don't call the Russian planes junk because you got the same family of planes no mater how many suffixes you put next to their generic names, they will remain M-29 and SU 30.

I wont ask a Sniper why he uses a scope in Urban combat if he is intending to use it while entering a building, I will have him removed from the team if he thinks that in the small confines of the place his Sniper rifle is better than an SMG. the analogy of Sniper with the plane in not applicable anyway. and I did say that having a farseeing radar is a very good thing specially if you intend to start locking me from Chennai, you are welcome to do that.

you would have alerted PAF well in time to prepare a welcome party.

How would explain this part?

Because the blip doesn’t have a colour... its not RED or BLUE.... its just a BLIP... and in a real air war where we have a lot of aircrafts up, the BLIP is likely to be a friend than an enemy. so you push a button and you may erase a friend.. It has happened in real combat and in training exercises. There has been no reliable way to secure that the enemy cannot bamboozle, that separates red from blue.


According to something I read from Chogy a while back this seems to be the case.

sadly the trolls succeeded in getting the thread closed where you picked these lines. I was looking forward to some practical and mature discussion on the points raised in the article but the flaming and spamming meant that it had to be closed for moderation. when you have such emotionally charged fanbase which takes even a serious discussion as an insult to integrity and honor then all you see is off topic ranting and mud slinging.

 

[Free Soul]

Sorry but those Chinese Su30 or the old Junks which NATO uses are a class apart from what Russia, India and Malaysia fields.

OOO yea... everything else is crap.. no doubt. One has to get lost for words on this .
Well everything else is crap but still IAF needs something other than the awesome SU30 Indian MKI, something like Dassault Rafale? And ev one knows until IAF buys it, Rafale is crap too.

the question what remains is how strong is the tactics and what is their number... since in a war you'd be picked stimulated and countered withing half a dozen engagements... and yes we have supercomputers to do that.

How strong are the Tactics? :-o ... Sir you don’t need supercomputers, you are awesome
And the Number is 00.8789965.0097765432.555555555555555990876544333

 

[DARKY]

I sometimes surprise myself how much good a mind reader I am. ( I just knew what the response will be).
Nothing can replace the real thing my boy, no one can argue that.

but the reason for exercise is to get as close as you can get to the real thing. otherwise whats the point? exercising with Chinese SU30s helped us to build up the basic parameters to design our strategies, the difference still remains but that cant be helped.


although I did mention that fact but it missed your attention and you bombarded the MKI unique equipment package.

and Please, don't call the Russian planes junk because you got the same family of planes no mater how many suffixes you put next to their generic names, they will remain M-29 and SU 30.

I wont ask a Sniper why he uses a scope in Urban combat if he is intending to use it while entering a building, I will have him removed from the team if he thinks that in the small confines of the place his Sniper rifle is better than an SMG. the analogy of Sniper with the plane in not applicable anyway. and I did say that having a farseeing radar is a very good thing specially if you intend to start locking me from Chennai, you are welcome to do that.

you would have alerted PAF well in time to prepare a welcome party.

Those Su30 might have helped getting the feel about the thing... the real machine is very different as you know... weapons, ECM, engines whatever you say... yes even the air frame and material used in the air frame.

Russians have sold a lot of Junk to many countries yes those Iraqi Mig29s or the ones which were sold East European nations.. all water-downed and downgraded.. calling them junk was in respect to what is available today with most of the airforces around the who field Russian planes.

Again the scope thing was to point out the long range shots... while in WVR pilots don't spend much time looking of Radar screen... they use HUD rather.. I don't think you need to ask that from any one.

Still didn't understand the point about long range did you... lets leave that to you...

 

[SQ8]

Those Su30 might have helped getting the feel about the thing... the real machine is very different as you know... weapons, ECM, engines whatever you say... yes even the air frame and material used in the air frame.

Russians have sold a lot of Junk to many countries yes those Iraqi Mig29s or the ones which were sold East European nations.. all water-downed and downgraded.. calling them junk was in respect to what is available today with most of the airforces around the who field Russian planes.

Again the scope thing was to point out the long range shots... while in WVR pilots don't spend much time looking of Radar screen... they use HUD rather.. I don't think you need to ask that from any one.

Still didn't understand the point about long range did you... lets leave that to you...

Proof of that claim?

 

[DARKY]

Proof of that claim?

What kind of proof do you want ?

Why not compare the machine yourself.... Russian have always sold the monkey model until you are actively involved or funding the project...

Yes that applies to IAF Mig 21 and T-72s too until they started making them in India itself.

 

[SQ8]

]What kind of proof do you want ?

Why not compare the machine yourself.... Russian have always sold the monkey model until you are actively involved or funding the project... [/B]

Yes that applies to IAF Mig 21 and T-72s too until they started making them in India itself.

Perhaps they only built a monkey model...still continue to do so.

 

[MilSpec]

Just to clarify a point (although off topic), I Would beg to differ with some fellow countrymen here who claim that MKI's airframe is different/upgraded from base Russian su30/27. There were no changes made to the fuselage, wing spars, aero-foil dimensions or to the honeycomb and internal skin and outer skin composites.

Air frame certification for the wings is a complex process, involving a million cycles of fatigue testing two (edge and flap) and static testing in 4 directions (min edge max edge, min flap and max flap). Involves a large number of strain gauges, load cells and diplacement data with around 2-5 data points generated per second (depending on data acquisition system) and all this is just for the wing assembly. Entire air frame certification is even a larger envelope of testing.

Hence some companies would prefer to buy a design (e.g. flanker/fishbed) and make the aircraft instead of getting into the business of making an air frame to get an aircraft commissioned faster.

God bless off the shelf avionics and weapons package which has speed up the test protocol, but 15 yrs ago it was next to impossible to set an aircraft commissioning within 10 years. Airframe testing has been one of the main reasons for delays in many aircraft projects around the world.

 

[DARKY]

Just to clarify a point (although off topic), I Would beg to differ with some fellow countrymen here who claim that MKI's airframe is different/upgraded from base Russian su30/27. There were no changes made to the fuselage, wing spars, aero-foil dimensions or to the honeycomb and internal skin and outer skin composites.

Air frame certification for the wings is a complex process, involving a million cycles of fatigue testing two (edge and flap) and static testing in 4 directions (min edge max edge, min flap and max flap). Involves a large number of strain gauges, load cells and diplacement data with around 2-5 data points generated per second (depending on data acquisition system) and all this is just for the wing assembly. Entire air frame certification is even a larger envelope of testing.

Hence some companies would prefer to buy a design (e.g. flanker/fishbed) and make the aircraft instead of getting into the business of making an air frame to get an aircraft commissioned faster.

God bless off the shelf avionics and weapons package which has speed up the test protocol, but 15 yrs ago it was next to impossible to set an aircraft commissioning within 10 years. Airframe testing has been one of the main reasons for delays in many aircraft projects around the world.

HAL have contributed CFC air-frame to Su30MKI... It remains to be seen If it is adopted... yes very high percentage of CFC.
There many small reasons why we make the Su30 in India itself... what would be the percentage of Titanium used in a Russian Su30 and a Chinese one ?

 

[Rafi]

The Air Chief is confident - because we have the operational thesis their doctrine is based upon, all the angles have been wargamed, and the PAF is able to counter it. Simple as that fellas.

 

[raveolution]

Perhaps they only built a monkey model...still continue to do so.

Is this the quality of a post expected from a senior moderator??!!! You of all should know better what the Russians have achieved in the Military Aviation sector!!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Is this the quality of a post expected from a senior moderator??!!! You of all should know better what the Russians have achieved in the Military Aviation sector!!

do you want to discuss quality?

check out how your fellow countrymen spam and troll when they dont find articles or posts that are suitable to their taste.

by the way do check out post number #322. it appears that your countryman doesnt hold the Russians in the ame high esteem as you do.

personal preferences will always exist. you talk to Germans they consider rest of the world products inferior, cheap and below standard but thats just their personal opinion. Russian military equipment is war proven and doesnt really need any seal of approval.

the argument here is that whatever India has is better and if its origin are Russian then it means sod all. its not just this thread or this forum. but it seems to be a world wide web issue I see where all nonIndian derivatives are termed as junk, and rusting tins by the Indians. do a search on Vietnam SU 30s locked on by the Chinese and see what kind of appreciation is lavished by the Indians on their Russian Equipment.

 

[DARKY]

do you want to discuss quality?

check out how your fellow countrymen spam and troll when they dont find articles or posts that are suitable to their taste.

by the way do check out post number #322. it appears that your countryman doesnt hold the Russians in the ame high esteem as you do.

personal preferences will always exist. you talk to Germans they consider rest of the world products inferior, cheap and below standard but thats just a their personal opinion. Russian military equipment is war proven and doesnt really need any seal of approval.

the argument here is that whatever India has is better and if its origin are Russian then it means sod all. its not just this thread or this forum. but it seems to be a world wide web issue I see where all nonIndian derivatives are termed as junk, and rusting tins by the Indians. do a search on Vietnam SU 30s locked on by the Chinese and see what kind of appreciation is lavished by the Indians on their Russian Equipment.

Have you read about AL-31FN engine sale to China by Saturn ?
The same engine was supplied to India for Su30... TVC was extra... why don't you ask some Chinese friends about the experience they had...
Talk of Iraqi Mig29s or the Mig29s in Balkans... do you think that Russians would allow their beast equipment in Hands of their enemy... recently there was a sale for Su35 to Venezuela... would those Su35 be on par with Russian Su35 or Indian Su30 ?... Its not like they always sold the best to India... as I told monkey T-72 and Mig21s were supplied.. but thanks to the 90s collapse they needed money and co-developments in their projects...

Let me try and give you a list of weapons India actively funded in Russia and gave assistance in whatever way they could..
Su30MKI-Su35
R-77M
K-172/100
R-77M-PD
Brahmos
PAK FA
Bars--Ibris--New AESA of NIIP company.. etc..etc..

These are only for aviation sector although there are more... I can't provide link or source for every mentioned system but ask a senior Russian who follows the development... about India's role in their defense industry... Its no-more seller and buyer.. Its like Partners... and Indian companies also get the share of profits for the work they do there...

There's a reason why India gets the better as compared to any other nation from Russia... and off course the Best is always reserved for them.

 

[MilSpec]

HAL have contributed CFC air-frame to Su30MKI... It remains to be seen If it is adopted... yes very high percentage of CFC.
There many small reasons why we make the Su30 in India itself... what would be the percentage of Titanium used in a Russian Su30 and a Chinese one ?

Dear sir, composition of MKI airframe does not have HAL contributed CFC. Or not alteast till 4 years ago till when I was part of HAL nasik division. Russians a/c have a history of using Ti in their airframe because of its inherent advantages. the only air frame modification I know of was to substitute domestic Al instead of russian alloy for cost benefits. Apart from that I do not want to go into minor details that do not need DGQCA certifications for the a/c. I know the pains of what it takes in documentation and certification of an airframe testing , thats why I am pointing this out. By all means russian airframe is the best design and I wouldn't change it for the rest of the life of this platform. Also just from a design engineers perspective, production should never tamper with design. All Optimization should only be done by original designers.

 

[DARKY]

Dear sir, composition of MKI airframe does not have HAL contributed CFC. Or not alteast till 4 years ago till when I was part of HAL nasik division. Russians a/c have a history of using Ti in their airframe because of its inherent advantages. the only air frame modification I know of was to substitute domestic Al instead of russian alloy for cost benefits. Apart from that I do not want to go into minor details that do not need DGQCA certifications for the a/c. I know the pains of what it takes in documentation and certification of an airframe testing , thats why I am pointing this out. By all means russian airframe is the best design and I wouldn't change it for the rest of the life of this platform. Also just from a design engineers perspective, production should never tamper with design. All Optimization should only be done by original designers.

I would rather wait for the Upgraded plane.
There was some talk of introducing a CFC air frame... how far did It go.. is another thing.
And they never supported any design change although It was on offer from Russia... What I can say here is that If a flanker ever rolls out in CFC body then HAL would've contributed in some way to It... I have a friend in Pune who said about this.

 

[MilSpec]

I would rather wait for the Upgraded plane.
There was some talk of introducing a CFC air frame... how far did It go.. is another thing.
And they never supported any design change although It was on offer from Russia... What I can say here is that If a flanker ever rolls out in CFC body then HAL would've contributed in some way to It... I have a friend in Pune who said about this.

I am surprised by your three previous posts with ref to the airframe, in the first one you claimed MKI is structurally different, in the next HAL has suggested and the next one is about the upgrade. lets not speculate to make MKI something it's not. I would be very proud if MKi did have RAM coatings or stealth characteristics as i assume is what you really are 'wishing' for but lets not get too excited about Carbon fiber composites.

Carbon fiber for the skin panels will not greatly affect the RCS due to the design of the aircraft. If you are referring to carbon fiber reinforced hybrid spar planks or AL-Ti honeycomb faced with CFRP, I wouldn't get too excited and probably stay away from it. CF is a big headache when it comes to repair. Plus if you have spar planks reinforced with carbon fiber there is fatigue delamination which is one of the major causes for crack propagation. This has been documented in the F35 air frame testing regime. To sum it up carbon fiber structures are largely non-serviceable, I would be much happier using known alloys and make it up in TVR using better engines.

MKI uses extensive amount of lithium - aluminium titanium honeycomb composites which are extremely advanced, perform at par or better than the range of available prepreg CFRP available in India, without the serviceability issues.