PAF can counter India’s new war doctrine, says air chief

[Storm Force]

Master Khan.

Direction of battle WILL BE decided by the agressor.

THEY DICTATE where to strike
WHAT time
WHAT NOS and the strike package to use.

I CAN GURANTEE you now INDIA will not send 150 SU30MKI in blindly or foolishy to be HITTING brick walls.

THANKFULLY the CSD doctrine will be EVER evolving and based on STAND OFF WEAPONS only from accross the border so top keep losses to a minimum.

BUT THIS WLL ALL CHANGE FROM 2015 when RAFALE ARRIVES...

Probably the most advanced Electronic warefare ATTACK plane in the the fouth generation era. Rafales ability to completely blind libyan sam sites and the GCC was demonstrated vivdley last year.

AND I THINK THE IAF took note

 

[Edevelop]

cb4

THIS COMBO from PLAAF looks far more lethal

We will get one of those by 2015. In fact, it will be even better:

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

If su 30 is a success---it will be quick----but if su 30 hits a brick wall----then you will be having major bouts of nervousness.

Aren't you forgetting the SMT's?
IIRC,they are the ones nearer to the IB.

 

[ziaulislam]

PAF job is to fend any short surgical strike ..its job isnt to take part in a month long war..as then whether we like it or not nukes will come into the issue.



PAF will maintain 1/3 strength as it has always done..

this would be done by inducting 1/3 of fourth gen jet as compared to india. and 1/3 of 5th gen jets in future..

e.g for india future 42 squardons..650 fourth gen jets and 250 fifth gen jets are expected..

so expect PAF to induct 300-350 4th jets (150-200 jf-17s excluding the ones for navy and 150 f-16s/j-10 mix)

and around 60-80 fifth gen jets..which PAF will think about around 2020 ..i think we can easily afford that much


PAF jets in turn will be mix of two types of multirole aircrfts..
ones with deep strike capability and ones with low range point defense capability

 

[RazPaK]

Colonel John Richard Boyd – Military Strategist, Pilot, Pentagon consultant of the late 20th century.

People who say the era of the Dogfight is over are wrong. Real combat proves totally otherwise. Radar doesn’t dominate and radar missiles traditionally and up till now [in combat scenario] are most unreliable. With the advancement of radars the counter measures and manoeuvrability has advanced at the same pace. So in REAL air to air combat the radar cannot identify a friend from foe.

You have to be close enough to positively identify the target. The dream of all technological air forces has been: if we look at a scope from the radar and we see a blip.. we press a button and a few seconds later the blip disappears... its perfect isn’t it?... well it doesn’t work that way in reality.. it didn’t work in the past and it doesn’t work today...

Because the blip doesn’t have a colour... its not RED or BLUE.... its just a BLIP... and in a real air war where we have a lot of aircrafts up, the BLIP is likely to be a friend than an enemy. so you push a button and you may erase a friend.. It has happened in real combat and in training exercises. There has been no reliable way to secure that the enemy cannot bamboozle, that separates red from blue.

You don’t stay at a distance and avoid merge, it DOEST NOT HAPPEN.. YOU WILL MERGE..
SO in that case you have to get close enough to see.... CLOSE ENOUGH TO SEE?... [what is the distance on that?] its like a quarter mile.. May be in good weather half a mile... but pretty close. You know now you have a Dogfight ...you turn ..and he turns..THIS IS COMBAT..you are in either heat seekers or gun firing range...

 

[IceCold]

Probably the most advanced Electronic warefare ATTACK plane in the the fouth generation era. Rafales ability to completely blind libyan sam sites and the GCC was demonstrated vivdley last year.

AND I THINK THE IAF took note

Jamming Libyan sam sites and comparing that with Pakistan, i seriously doubt if IAF is that naive.

 

[MastanKhan]

Aren't you forgetting the SMT's?
IIRC,they are the ones nearer to the IB.

Hi,

Please speak in english. Thank you.

 

[SQ8]

Colonel John Richard Boyd – Military Strategist, Pilot, Pentagon consultant of the late 20th century.

He wrote this back in the 70's.
Missiles and IFF now are extremely reliable.

 

[RazPaK]

He wrote this back in the 70's.
Missiles and IFF now are extremely reliable.

How would explain this part?

Because the blip doesn’t have a colour... its not RED or BLUE.... its just a BLIP... and in a real air war where we have a lot of aircrafts up, the BLIP is likely to be a friend than an enemy. so you push a button and you may erase a friend.. It has happened in real combat and in training exercises. There has been no reliable way to secure that the enemy cannot bamboozle, that separates red from blue.

According to something I read from Chogy a while back this seems to be the case.

 

[PWFI]

Master Khan.

Direction of battle WILL BE decided by the agressor.

THEY DICTATE where to strike
WHAT time
WHAT NOS and the strike package to use.

I CAN GURANTEE you now INDIA will not send 150 SU30MKI in blindly or foolishy to be HITTING brick walls.

THANKFULLY the CSD doctrine will be EVER evolving and based on STAND OFF WEAPONS only from accross the border so top keep losses to a minimum.

BUT THIS WLL ALL CHANGE FROM 2015 when RAFALE ARRIVES...

Probably the most advanced Electronic warefare ATTACK plane in the the fouth generation era. Rafales ability to completely blind libyan sam sites and the GCC was demonstrated vivdley last year.

AND I THINK THE IAF took note

It was E/A 18 not rafale for that jobe
Boeing EA-18G Growler Completes Combat Debut HD - YouTube

 

[SQ8]

How would explain this part?
According to something I read from Chogy a while back this seems to be the case.

IFF is still not entirely accurate.. but there are measures to do so..with deceptions as well.
It all depends on the scenario and doctrines employed.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

He wrote this back in the 70's.
Missiles and IFF now are extremely reliable.

his remarks were related to issues with F-35. they are also confirmed by the F-15 pilots over Iraq who did have locks on Iraqi Migs but were making visual confirmations and even asked over the radios if anyone had AB on and when the answer was negative one of them fired the missile on the Iraqi Mig-29 who had engaged AB.

indeed the BVR/ radio guided missiles have come a long way and his choice of words was a bit overcooked but look at our borders. we are next to each other not sure how much a 200km +radar of MKI is needed when the international border is fraction of that, not discounting its range but saying its not applicable unless if its seeking an air target deep inside Pakistan. and once it does that it announces itself to the intercepting aircraft and Air defense command what will vector the interceptor(s) to it. But if the Indians plan to lock PAF planes from somewhere like Chennai then fair enough.

the awesomeness of SU 30 is recognized but all air forces that will be facing it are working on finding out its weaknesses to exploit it. PAF has had some good training with Chinese SU30 which is same family and its as close as it can get for PAF. and NATO operates on same principle where they have the Red October exercise with German Mig-29 pilots who have a NATO aggressor squadron. Otherwise they use the Hornets to imitate as Mig-29 while in USA.
We have very limited information about the alleged Indian intrusion which was intercepted by the PAF
Planes. So there are only two possibilities in my opinion. Either they had their radars on and helped PAF to intercept them with BVR lock. Or when they had intruded inside deep enough they were intercepted despite their jamming or switched off radars. Whether it was a WVR lock is open to speculation.
Too bad that PAF is not willing to post its tactics and details of its interception on the web with video and flight charts and wants to keep this ability a secret. But this would have helped us prove our point to Indians but then again they can always reject that if that doesn’t suit them.

 

[Tehmasib]

we welcome indians fighter if they try to cross red line....then every one understand the means of doctrine.....only india pilots hears bang bang bang bang.

 

[DARKY]

his remarks were related to issues with F-35. they are also confirmed by the F-15 pilots over Iraq who did have locks on Iraqi Migs but were making visual confirmations and even asked over the radios if anyone had AB on and when the answer was negative one of them fired the missile on the Iraqi Mig-29 who had engaged AB.

indeed the BVR/ radio guided missiles have come a long way and his choice of words was a bit overcooked but look at our borders. we are next to each other not sure how much a 200km +radar of MKI is needed when the international border is fraction of that,

Ask a Sniper why does he uses scope even when in Urban combat.
Su 30 would rather Push F-16s in blochistan If well supported by SAM batteries on the Indian border... leaving the area open for Mechanized Battle groups.
Its not the Mexican shoot out which most think of.

not discounting its range but saying its not applicable unless if its seeking an air target deep inside Pakistan. and once it does that it announces itself to the intercepting aircraft and Air defense command what will vector the interceptor(s) to it. But if the Indians plan to lock PAF planes from somewhere like Chennai then fair enough.

The extended range provides it the leverage of early detection and tracking so it can turn a loop and get out of the scanning area of F-16 and shoot its weapon from the most desirable position... while for F-16 It would be like play catch the shiny bullet with Su or run for its life most commonly.

the awesomeness of SU 30 is recognized but all air forces that will be facing it are working on finding out its weaknesses to exploit it. PAF has had some good training with Chinese SU30 which is same family and its as close as it can get for PAF. and NATO operates on same principle where they have the Red October exercise with German Mig-29 pilots who have a NATO aggressor squadron. Otherwise they use the Hornets to imitate as Mig-29 while in USA.
We have very limited information about the alleged Indian intrusion which was intercepted by the PAF
Planes. So there are only two possibilities in my opinion. Either they had their radars on and helped PAF to intercept them with BVR lock. Or when they had intruded inside deep enough they were intercepted despite their jamming or switched off radars. Whether it was a WVR lock is open to speculation.
Too bad that PAF is not willing to post its tactics and details of its interception on the web with video and flight charts and wants to keep this ability a secret. But this would have helped us prove our point to Indians but then again they can always reject that if that doesn’t suit them.

Sorry but those Chinese Su30 or the old Junks which NATO uses are a class apart from what Russia, India and Malaysia fields.
Its not only the PAF who hides its tactics most of the air forces around the world do the same... the question what remains is how strong is the tactics and what is their number... since in a war you'd be picked stimulated and countered withing half a dozen engagements... and yes we have supercomputers to do that.

 

[Free Soul]

He wrote this back in the 70's.
Missiles and IFF now are extremely reliable.

Colonel Boyd was dubbed "Forty Second Boyd" for his standing bet as an instructor pilot that beginning from a position of disadvantage, he could defeat any opposing pilot in air combat manoeuvring in less than forty seconds.
This guy was involved in the development of F-16 and A-10 Thunderbolt.
He was flying till mid 70’s but it is not where his career ended. He was a military strategist, involved in design and development.
His words carry substance.
It’s funny how many of us just brush aside stuff.
Where BVR detection and engagements have advanced so have the countermeasures, jammers etc.
Note that I am not playing down the role of BVR it is very important, In my humble opinion it has been over hyped.