PAF can counter India’s new war doctrine, says air chief

[Skull and Bones]

odds have always been tilted towards Indian favour when it comes to just numbers. PAF held its own throughout
Please take in consideration defensive role, PAF role is to defend its air space complimented with Pak Army Crops of Air Defence. Light Artillery, surface to air missle defence system.
Parity in terms of being able to effectively counter any Doctrine IAF has to offer.

Please feel free to omit the word ‘Parity’ if you so wish.

As if we don't.

 

[illusion8]

odds have always been tilted towards Indian favour when it comes to just numbers. PAF held its own throughout
Please take in consideration defensive role, PAF role is to defend its air space complimented with Pak Army Crops of Air Defence. Light Artillery, surface to air missle defence system.
Parity in terms of being able to effectively counter any Doctrine IAF has to offer.

Please feel free to omit the word ‘Parity’ if you so wish.

our preparedness is in a sense to gain parity with China, but the question remains is with all the equipment mentioned by you above add to that some hardware help to you from China or some of your other friends, can IAF create total air dominance over PAF in a slightly drawn out war - lets keep nukes aside.

 

[VelocuR]

Just take all these newly inducted system as a home alarm system, in case a thief breaks in. We'll make sure he won't get back alive.

Kargil caught us snoring, learnt our lessons.

Yes, right. We just make sure there will be shot down on fighters who try to sneak into the country without our own home alarm system, we managed it, frequently we caught them.

Goes back to sleeep snortinggg...

Trust me, India and Pakistan is not going to all-round wars, economic most matters.

 

[MilSpec]

I agree to what the pakistani members here are saying, introduction of BVR missile has enhanced operational capability of pakistan.

Now to answer to Mr. Windjammer nearly 1000 posts which pertain to some MKI crossing over in lahore sector caught in the HUD of some f16. I highly doubt that it was any surgical strike incursion and IAF got scared to move into the kill zone. It doesn't make sense for few strike a/c going into pak airspace without any air superiority cover and that too in lahore sector. But windlamers story is corroborated by oscar so might be IAF was testing PAF's readiness, we all remember foxbats breaking soundbarriers at 65000 feet in islamabad to just mess around and see what PAF can throw back at em.

Irfan Baloch, oscar and others have made valid arguments to make it clear that if there is a limited conflict PAF is in more than better shape to hold its ground against the IAF in its current configuration and I complety agree to the same.

Numbers game: I have no intention of comparing numbers between pakistan and India. Currently India probably stands at one of its lowest ratio vis a vis pakistan that it has traditionally maintained. But there is a road map that say's eventually in few years maybe a decade, IAF will have numbers that would create a huge disparity in technologically comparable platforms.

Significance of numbers: Although most Indians would hate to accept it as a fact, but current paf inventory more than sufficient for active denial of IAF missions if hostilities broke out tomorrow. First 24 hrs in any level of conflict (stagnant, median, low intensity) will be the most crucial part. Here is where IAF numbers will come into play if they can effectively coordinate following three:
>multiple strike packages to overwhelm PAF,
>simultaneous hunter killer missions inside PAF airspace to divert attention from the strike packages
> Close Air Support for the IBG.

the key is to have the IBG goals met and not try to play red baron in pakistani airspace. Being an aggressor force, IAF will probably see larger attrition rate.

F16blk52/JF17: Although quite a few members here have the opinion that f16lk52 is a game changer, may I put forward the idea that , f16's was the most underutilized tool in PAF arsenal, its only the arrival of FC1/jf17 has actually changed the fate of f16. The existence of FC1 has dramatically increased the operational effectiveness of the f16 by relieving it of duties taken over by the FC1.

Indian establishment is barely in the position to manage a war successfully with pakistan in its current strength, Although It can fight and seriously damage Pakistani establishment, it will have to be ready to take a huge setback itself too, especially in Aerial and ground warfare. Pakistan is probably the best prepared for a conflict now than ever. the reason why i say this is because of the Indian fleet up gradation and foresight in battle planning is going to increase the gap in the operational readiness and cumulative firepower every year. 10 years from now, although pakistan will have newer aircrafts and tanks and weaponry, Indian arsenal would be way ahead of them compared to where we stand today, both qualitatively and in quantity.

I don't see weakening of India in next decade, if the growing disparity is against pakistan, then its best prepared for a conflict today, tomorrow might be not favorable with the given trend.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Yes, right. We just make sure there will be shot down on fighters who try to sneak into the country without our own home alarm system, we managed it, frequently we caught them.

Goes back to sleeep snortinggg...

Trust me, India and Pakistan is not going to all-round wars, economic most matters.

So you're saying that we can't disable your home alarm systems?

Don't don't say you can intrude 500km deeper into Indian territory to disable Swordfish radar, but Rajendra and other short range radars are vulnerable.

Target can be acquired by spy satellites and we don't need to send our fighters in, this will do.

And moral of the story is, We can see you every time and everywhere, you can't.

 

[VelocuR]

So you're saying that we can't disable your home alarm systems?

Don't don't say you can intrude 500km deeper into Indian territory to disable Swordfish radar, but Rajendra and other short range radars are vulnerable.

Target can be acquired by spy satellites and we don't need to send our fighters in, this will do.

And moral of the story is, We can see you every time and everywhere, you can't.

Indian brilliantttt, all I can say!

The moral is still to say- Pakistan will process to upgrade the defences and radars systems including anti-tracking radars, India will not attack Pakistan anytime soon........you see me through smoking everytime and everywhere?

 

[SQ8]

Now to answer to Mr. Windjammer nearly 1000 posts which pertain to some MKI crossing over in lahore sector caught in the HUD of some f16. I highly doubt that it was any surgical strike incursion and IAF got scared to move into the kill zone. It doesn't make sense for few strike a/c going into pak airspace without any air superiority cover and that too in lahore sector. But windlamers story is corroborated by oscar so might be IAF was testing PAF's readiness, we all remember foxbats breaking soundbarriers at 65000 feet in islamabad to just mess around and see what PAF can throw back at em.

Reconnaissance-in-force (RIF) is a type of military operation or military tactics used specifically to probe an enemy's disposition. By mounting an offensive with considerable (but not decisive) force, the commander hopes to elicit a strong reaction by the enemy that reveals its own strength, deployment, and other tactical data. The RIF commander retains the option to fall back with the data or expand the conflict into a full engagement.

Perhaps the IAF was baiting.. waiting for Pakistan to strike the first blow.
The aircraft went as far as Kharian..that is from PAF officers.. anything further is not for discussion here.
Any smart alec jackassed responses from other members will be treated as trolling.

 

[indianspetsnaz]

Too many members from both sides are suffering from the "if everything breaks right" syndrome, proclaiming capabilities of their respective forces in the perfect circumstances, where the adversary is essentially brain dead.
If we are to discuss this rationally, then there is no reason to doubt these claims. It is outrageous to assume the influx of new f-16s don't multiply the PAF capability manifold. As Irfan Baloch has tirelessly pointed out (I envy your patience), PAF can protect Pakistani airspace in a short conflict, long enough to allow for a diplomatic resolution. An assumption I make from past Indo-Pak conflicts where fighting is fierce, but short. As Pakistanis, we must accept that at no point, in the foreseeable future, will we have comparable firepower to the Indians and the longer the conflict, the more convincing becomes our defeat. But as far as the PAF is concerned, it should be able to protect Pakistanis skies for just long enough. In no way does that dilute the capabilities of the IAF as some defensive members are assuming, but it only gives due credit to a professional fighting force that has the requisite experience in fighting wars to at-least hold off the superior IAF firepower for a limited space of time.

ding ding ding ding ding! mods we have a winner! I thought Ifran Baloch would be the only person who understood this but looks like another person realizes it too thank you sir for your sensible post.

 

[indianspetsnaz]

the PAF is capable enough to defend its own skies for a couple of days so that a diplomatic solution can be worked out (this was the U.s intention of selling PAF F-16 Blk52 as stated in diplomatic cables they were too buy Washington a couple of days to prevent nuclear war) but they cannot conduct missions within Indian airspace maybe at the most some border AFB's will have their runways cratered but they would be fixed in a matter of hours

jingoism and patriotism aside both sides need to realize one thing

the PAF is modernizing at a quick pace with the induction of AMRAAMC5 SD-10 and fighters like JFT,FC-20(future) the IAF has a new challenge to face and that is counter BVR-warfare a change in combat training needs to take place focusing more on BVR but also giving pilots training in dog fighting. the IAF is taking measures to replenish its already under sanctioned strength fighter fleet and is upgrading its aircraft to serve for 20 years this includes addition of new EW systems,avionics etc

now despite the PAF race to modernize it will still be behind in terms of qualitative technology and numbers the gap may be getting thin now but the latter half of this decade will see induction of Rafales,LCA MK2 and FGFA along with the addition of upgraded Super MKI's, Mirage 2000-5 MK2 (and i am willing to say this is better than the F-16BLK52) and MiG-29UPG (equal to BLK52)


to sum it up in a few words PAF can defend its own airspace for a couple of days in case of war but eventually the numbers and qualitative edge of the IAF will overtake the PAF. the IAF is the most vulnerable its been since the 65 war and the PAF is capitalizing on it but unfortunately we are not standing around doing nothing slowly but surely the IAF will be back in healthy shape (by 2020 and beyond)

 

[vizier]

What about air defence especially sams to complement the airforce. India has S300 derivatives which will turn many of your planes to sead role instead of air to air but they dont need air to ground equipment since you dont possess high altitude sams except the archaic sa 2 hq 2s. Say a2a engagement bvr is max 100kms S 300 derivatives have about 200km range so they can use it to attack inside your airspace with their fighters bvr role for hit and run attacks but with the abscence of modern sams you cant do the same.

 

[VelocuR]

What about air defence especially sams to complement the airforce. India has S300 derivatives which will turn many of your planes to sead role instead of air to air but they dont need air to ground equipment since you dont possess high altitude sams except the archaic sa 2 hq 2s. Say a2a engagement bvr is max 100kms S 300 derivatives have about 200km range so they can use it to attack inside your airspace with their fighters bvr role for hit and run attacks but with the abscence of modern sams you cant do the same.

We do have high altitudes SAMS in classified (unknown to public) and working on high altitudes SAMS. Yeah, we are aware of India outdated S300.

Pak’s arms purchases from China go into overdrive
Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:47:20 PM by ANI

Guangdong, Nov 18 (ANI): Pakistan is interested in buying more defense systems and equipment from China, and hopes to deepen cooperation to upgrade its armed forces, a top Pakistan Air Force officer said on Wednesday.

Pakistan is evaluating, among other options, three or four Chinese surface-to-air missiles, including the advanced “HQ-18″, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman told China Daily.
Jane’s Defence News, a publication that specializes in military topics, reported that China was building the Hong Qi-18 (HQ-18) missile system based on the Russian S-300V1 type 2 (SA-12A “Gladiator&#8221, presumably under a license agreement. But this has not been confirmed by the Chinese military, the paper added.

The missiles, with a maximum range of 100 km, can be used against short-range ballistic missiles, aircraft or cruise missiles, with intercepts taking place between a low-level 25 meters and an altitude of 25 kilometers, according to Jane’s.

 

[AUz]

In any short but highly intense conflict , Pakistan Air Force can do the job ! But if the war goes for more than a month...then the problem for Pakistan kicks in. But from previous conflicts , we all know that India would not be able to sustain a full-fledged , fierce war with Pakistan for more than a month or so etc .....So in that case , Pakistan Air Force has more than enough to hold Indian Air Force at bay.

Remember , in any future conflict between India and Pakistan...nuclear weapons and foreign diplomacy will play HUGE role....

If God forbid any conflict does happen in the future , I don't think it would last more than 17-20 days at max! ...After that , Pakistani nuclear strike forces will start preparing for final showdown and India will never push the war to that extent!

 

[indianspetsnaz]

In any short but highly intense conflict , Pakistan Air Force can do the job ! But if the war goes for more than a month...then the problem for Pakistan kicks in. But from previous conflicts , we all know that India would not be able to sustain a full-fledged , fierce war with Pakistan for more than a month or so etc .....So in that case , Pakistan Air Force has more than enough to hold Indian Air Force at bay.

Remember , in any future conflict between India and Pakistan...nuclear weapons and foreign diplomacy will play HUGE role....

If God forbid any conflict does happen in the future , I don't think it would last more than 17-20 days at max! ...After that , Pakistani nuclear strike forces will start preparing for final showdown and India will never push the war to that extent!

you are saying we are not able to sustain full fledged war? dude where were you during Kargil? India has the finances troops and weapons to sustain in a long war Pakistan is the one that cannot sustain full fledged war and a month??? you gotta be kidding me of all the fighter aircraft you have only a squadron of them can hold their own again IAF fighters leaked US cables stated that Washington gave the PAF the F-16Blk52 and MLU in order to buy a couple of days so that the US could prevent nuclear strike at the very most a week the numerical and qualitative superiority of the IAF would prevail don't forget we have M2K's and MiG-29's/MiG-29K's if you count the navy air arm.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Perhaps the IAF was baiting.. waiting for Pakistan to strike the first blow.
The aircraft went as far as Kharian..that is from PAF officers.. anything further is not for discussion here.
Any smart alec jackassed responses from other members will be treated as trolling.

Sir this is called a test run, the Israelis invented this and are famous for it. It's to check the adversaries response time and locate her AD units. PAF was smart enough to intercept the inbound bogies with interceptors and not light up their ground based AD units. The SU30MKI was locked and tailed through out, the pilot of SU30MKI did not perform any aggressive manoeuvres to shake off the F16 from its tail. That is evidence enough that the IAF just wanted to check our response time and locate our AD units. Although the Mirage III's that intercepted hostile bogies over Punjab performed aggressive manoeuvres and had the bogies painted up throughout the encounter.

to sum it up in a few words PAF can defend its own airspace for a couple of days in case of war but eventually the numbers and qualitative edge of the IAF will overtake the PAF. the IAF is the most vulnerable its been since the 65 war and the PAF is capitalizing on it but unfortunately we are not standing around doing nothing slowly but surely the IAF will be back in healthy shape (by 2020 and beyond)

But that is exactly what the new Indian Armed Forces strategy is, fight an intense/short war and avoid a long static battle. You are exactly proving the point that everyone over here is trying to advocate, that PAF is more than enough to defend itself in a short intense war. A war that is longer than a week is going to raise the nuclear threshold.

 

[PakShaheen79]

you are saying we are not able to sustain full fledged war? dude where were you during Kargil? India has the finances troops and weapons to sustain in a long war Pakistan is the one that cannot sustain full fledged war and a month??? you gotta be kidding me of all the fighter aircraft you have only a squadron of them can hold their own again IAF fighters leaked US cables stated that Washington gave the PAF the F-16Blk52 and MLU in order to buy a couple of days so that the US could prevent nuclear strike at the very most a week the numerical and qualitative superiority of the IAF would prevail don't forget we have M2K's and MiG-29's/MiG-29K's if you count the navy air arm.

And please don't overlook Chinese factor here who will play decisive role in PAF's future weapon systems and platforms. F-16s Block 52 is most high-tech weapon in PAF only till induction of FC-20. Don't read American wekileaks too much!