PAF Base Badhaber attack: Eight attackers appear to be ‘foreign nationals’

[Indus Falcon]

Oh, obviously you can't do that. A person who does not even know his own fiqh and claims things contrary to the faith he is following and then refuses to bring in AUTHENTIC sources and instead resorts to personal attacks and Takfiri behavior, can not obviously "stoop down" to my level.

As I said above in my initial reply to you, circumcision in Hanafi fiqh is a Sunnah and not an obligation. There are many good practicing Muslims out there who are uncircumcised including in Pakistani community.

Yeah right !!!!

Once you are done repeating yourself, do move on, and tell us about the devil tattoos you saw as well.

 

[Daneshmand]

Yeah right !!!!

Once you are done repeating yourself, do move on, and tell us about the devil tattoos you saw as well.

Such logical fallacies as changing topic under the discussion and bringing in irrelevant stuff, will not carry any favor for you.

The truth as I said above is that the circumcision is not obligatory in Hanafi fiqh. It is only a Sunnah. Therefore many following Hanafi fiqh do remain uncircumcised. This medical fact can be corroborated by any general surgeon who has worked with Muslim communities.

Now you can go on and make up conspiracies to sooth the pain you suffered because of the truth I brought to the discussion. It won't improve your situation. The truth can hurt pretty bad. Specially when one stands with falsehood.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Indus Falcon

This guy is a Indian doctor with impressive Islamic credentials.

Circumcision like Daneshmand said is not compulsory but is Sunnah. Do some research and you will find this out. Also some very poor in Pakistan ( and elsewhere ) do not do circumcision. This is fact only known by some like doctors or when they die. After all men don't go around hanging their hanger do they?

Why not ask some guy if you can confirm if he is circumcised and you will see the reaction you will get.

Lahore attack: Pak blame fails Waziristan circumcision test!
Omer Farooq Khan | TNN
Article Window

Islamabad: In the past, jubilant Pakistani authorities have announced that foreign, read Indian, agents were involved in explosions and attacks in the restive Swat region based on examination of the corpses of the killed attackers.
But the acid test cops and officials used to determine whether any of the dead ones was Indian was to check whether the man had been circumcised. If not, they would summarily dub him Hindu and therefore an Indian agent.
But as more such cases showed up, in places where there was not a ghost of a chance of any Indian involvement, doctors and officials began to worry about the methodology. It’s then that they stumbled on a little-known anthropological fact about Pashtun tribes in Waziristan, from where many of the Tehreeke-Taliban or Pakistani Taliban come.
It appears that many in the backward tribal areas of the country like Waziristan don’t undergo the mandatory circumcision that all Muslim males should undergo. The story took a rather comic turn when some of government’s own injured paramilitary soldiers, when examined, were found to be uncircumcised. This was especially true of wounded soldiers of the Frontier Constabulary from Waziristan, engaged in fighting Taliban militants.
Kamran Khan, a legislator from Waziristan in Pakistan’s lower house of Parliament, told TOI that many in the poor tribal areas fail to undergo circumcision because it is either not mandated in their tribal codes or because in many villages there are neither hospitals or even barbers, who perform most circumcisions in rural areas.
“People are either circumcised in hospitals or barbers do the job. Neither we have hospitals in Waziristan nor institution of barbers,’’ Khan said, adding that poor people of Waziristan can’t afford to take their male children to other areas for circumcision.
“I don’t deny there are uncircumcised people in Waziristan but it doesn’t mean that there are no circumcised ones.’’

Source: Pak Authorities use circumcision to identify "Indian Agents"

@Daneshmand

 

[Indus Falcon]

@Indus Falcon

This guy is a Indian doctor with impressive Islamic credentials.

Circumcision like Daneshmand said is not compulsory but is Sunnah. Do some research and you will find this out. Also some very poor in Pakistan ( and elsewhere ) do not do circumcision. This is fact only known by some like doctors or when they die. After all men don't go around hanging their hanger do they?

Why not ask some guy if you can confirm if he is circumcised and you will see the reaction you will get.

Lahore attack: Pak blame fails Waziristan circumcision test!
Omer Farooq Khan | TNN
Article Window

Islamabad: In the past, jubilant Pakistani authorities have announced that foreign, read Indian, agents were involved in explosions and attacks in the restive Swat region based on examination of the corpses of the killed attackers.
But the acid test cops and officials used to determine whether any of the dead ones was Indian was to check whether the man had been circumcised. If not, they would summarily dub him Hindu and therefore an Indian agent.
But as more such cases showed up, in places where there was not a ghost of a chance of any Indian involvement, doctors and officials began to worry about the methodology. It’s then that they stumbled on a little-known anthropological fact about Pashtun tribes in Waziristan, from where many of the Tehreeke-Taliban or Pakistani Taliban come.
It appears that many in the backward tribal areas of the country like Waziristan don’t undergo the mandatory circumcision that all Muslim males should undergo. The story took a rather comic turn when some of government’s own injured paramilitary soldiers, when examined, were found to be uncircumcised. This was especially true of wounded soldiers of the Frontier Constabulary from Waziristan, engaged in fighting Taliban militants.
Kamran Khan, a legislator from Waziristan in Pakistan’s lower house of Parliament, told TOI that many in the poor tribal areas fail to undergo circumcision because it is either not mandated in their tribal codes or because in many villages there are neither hospitals or even barbers, who perform most circumcisions in rural areas.
“People are either circumcised in hospitals or barbers do the job. Neither we have hospitals in Waziristan nor institution of barbers,’’ Khan said, adding that poor people of Waziristan can’t afford to take their male children to other areas for circumcision.
“I don’t deny there are uncircumcised people in Waziristan but it doesn’t mean that there are no circumcised ones.’’

Source: Pak Authorities use circumcision to identify "Indian Agents"

@Daneshmand

It's Sunnah Mukkadah, you do know what that means right?

Ulama (Muslim legal scholars) have differing opinions on the compulsion of male circumcision within the Shari’ah (Muslim law) with some (the Maliki and the Hanafi schools) seeing it as Sunnah Mu’akkadah (not obligatory, but highly recommended) and others (Hanbal and the Shafi’i schools) maintaining that male circumcision is Fard (obligatory) for all Muslims.
The debate on male infant circumcision in Europe: a challenge for Islamic biomedical ethics – CILE - Research Center for Islamic Legislation and Ethics

Secondly, the source you are quoting is Times of India.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

It's Sunnah Mukkahadah, you do know what that means right?

Secondly, the source you are quoting is Times of India.

Yes. Let me repeat this you you. It is preferred but not ABSOLUTE. There are many cases in Pakistan where for variety of reasons circumcision is not done but they are still MUSLIM. Let me say it again. It is preferred but not absolute because there are exclusions given. Not being circumcised does not put you beyond Islam. Circumcision by itself is NOT one of the basic requirements of a Muslim.

Is circumcision necessary before converting to Islam. - IslamQA

The basic beliefs one is required to accept while entering the fold of Islam are as following:


1) God is one. He has neither a partner, nor a son or daughter. He is One in the true sense of the word that has no room for the concept of trinity, or for any other form of camouflage monotheism (tawhid) or a disguised polytheism (shirk).


2) The Holy Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him & give him peace) is the last Messenger of Allah after whom no Messenger or Prophet of Allah (in any sense of the word) will come.


3) The Holy Qur’an is the last of the divine books revealed upon the blessed Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), and all its contents are true.


4) The life in the Hereafter (after death) is eternal, where one will face the fate of his good and evil deeds.


5) All the teachings of the Qur’an and the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) in absolute and unambiguous terms are true and acceptable.


When an individual accepts these fundamental beliefs of Islam from the depth of his heart, and rejects those beliefs of his former faith that contradict Islamic beliefs, then he will be considered a Muslim.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Yes. Let me repeat this you you. It is preferred but not ABSOLUTE. There are many cases in Pakistan where for variety of reasons circumcision is not done but they are still MUSLIM. Let me say it again. It is preferred but not absolute because there are exclusions given. Not being circumcised does not put you beyond Islam. Circumcision by itself is NOT one of the basic requirements of a Muslim.

Is circumcision necessary before converting to Islam. - IslamQA

Atanz I don't understand why you are getting so worked up? You coming to his rescue was expected, but you getting so worked up?

The point here is that it is a recommended Sunnah which the majority follow.

Now why is it that you and Daneshmand are so adamant at proving that being uncircumcised is very common in Pakistan? Therefore each time there is an attack and uncircumcised terrorist are caught with their pants down, people like you both are at the forefront of negating the notion that they were foreign agents.

I'm not going to talk about what the ISPR has been saying, but sure am looking forward to you both cooking up a nice story about the satanic tattoos.

 

[Humble Analyst]

Proves an afghan angle. We should go in and neutralize these terrorists. A stronger foreign policy that is slightly aggressive will only benefit Pakistan. We should take severe action against the traitorous taliban.

We must think how we go in. It should not be in the form of regular Army raid.

 

[Indus Falcon]

We must think how we go in. It should not be in the form of regular Army raid.

1) All diplomatic efforts should be exercised, including third party mediation. Mullah Radio and his friends should be our top priority.

2) If the Afghanis do not cooperate THEN a military angle should be considered.

 

[Humble Analyst]

1) All diplomatic efforts should be exercised, including third party mediation. Mullah Radio and his friends should be our top priority.

2) If the Afghanis do not cooperate THEN a military angle should be considered.

Mybe th is what In

1) All diplomatic efforts should be exercised, including third party mediation. Mullah Radio and his friends should be our top priority.

2) If the Afghanis do not cooperate THEN a military angle should be considered.

2) Covert operations?
Will be interesting once USA leaves.

 

[Indus Falcon]

2) Covert operations?
Will be interesting once USA leaves.

Well IF it is decided to use a military option, they why covert?

Secondly, before considering a military option:

A) Why not ship back every single Afghani?

B) Seal and mine our border.

C) Shut down their airspace.

Sit back and watch the show

 

[Humble Analyst]

Well IF it is decided to use a military option, they why covert?

Secondly, before considering a military option:

A) Why not ship back every single Afghani?

B) Seal and mine our border.

C) Shut down their airspace.

Sit back and watch the show?

Open military action may give excuse to additional players to get directly involved.

 

[Dubious]

Yes. Let me repeat this you you. It is preferred but not ABSOLUTE. There are many cases in Pakistan where for variety of reasons circumcision is not done but they are still MUSLIM. Let me say it again. It is preferred but not absolute because there are exclusions given. Not being circumcised does not put you beyond Islam. Circumcision by itself is NOT one of the basic requirements of a Muslim.

Is circumcision necessary before converting to Islam. - IslamQA

The basic beliefs one is required to accept while entering the fold of Islam are as following:


1) God is one. He has neither a partner, nor a son or daughter. He is One in the true sense of the word that has no room for the concept of trinity, or for any other form of camouflage monotheism (tawhid) or a disguised polytheism (shirk).


2) The Holy Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him & give him peace) is the last Messenger of Allah after whom no Messenger or Prophet of Allah (in any sense of the word) will come.


3) The Holy Qur’an is the last of the divine books revealed upon the blessed Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), and all its contents are true.


4) The life in the Hereafter (after death) is eternal, where one will face the fate of his good and evil deeds.


5) All the teachings of the Qur’an and the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) in absolute and unambiguous terms are true and acceptable.


When an individual accepts these fundamental beliefs of Islam from the depth of his heart, and rejects those beliefs of his former faith that contradict Islamic beliefs, then he will be considered a Muslim.

You would think for a people who are forcing religion down someone else's throat would be following each and every step in the religion they are literally dying for...Since they are not even following basic Sunnah, who or what are their ideologies?

 

[krash]

@Daneshmand

@Indus Falcon

This guy is a Indian doctor with impressive Islamic credentials.

Circumcision like Daneshmand said is not compulsory but is Sunnah. Do some research and you will find this out. Also some very poor in Pakistan ( and elsewhere ) do not do circumcision. This is fact only known by some like doctors or when they die. After all men don't go around hanging their hanger do they?

Why not ask some guy if you can confirm if he is circumcised and you will see the reaction you will get.

Lahore attack: Pak blame fails Waziristan circumcision test!
Omer Farooq Khan | TNN
Article Window

Islamabad: In the past, jubilant Pakistani authorities have announced that foreign, read Indian, agents were involved in explosions and attacks in the restive Swat region based on examination of the corpses of the killed attackers.
But the acid test cops and officials used to determine whether any of the dead ones was Indian was to check whether the man had been circumcised. If not, they would summarily dub him Hindu and therefore an Indian agent.
But as more such cases showed up, in places where there was not a ghost of a chance of any Indian involvement, doctors and officials began to worry about the methodology. It’s then that they stumbled on a little-known anthropological fact about Pashtun tribes in Waziristan, from where many of the Tehreeke-Taliban or Pakistani Taliban come.
It appears that many in the backward tribal areas of the country like Waziristan don’t undergo the mandatory circumcision that all Muslim males should undergo. The story took a rather comic turn when some of government’s own injured paramilitary soldiers, when examined, were found to be uncircumcised. This was especially true of wounded soldiers of the Frontier Constabulary from Waziristan, engaged in fighting Taliban militants.
Kamran Khan, a legislator from Waziristan in Pakistan’s lower house of Parliament, told TOI that many in the poor tribal areas fail to undergo circumcision because it is either not mandated in their tribal codes or because in many villages there are neither hospitals or even barbers, who perform most circumcisions in rural areas.
“People are either circumcised in hospitals or barbers do the job. Neither we have hospitals in Waziristan nor institution of barbers,’’ Khan said, adding that poor people of Waziristan can’t afford to take their male children to other areas for circumcision.
“I don’t deny there are uncircumcised people in Waziristan but it doesn’t mean that there are no circumcised ones.’’

Source: Pak Authorities use circumcision to identify "Indian Agents"

@Daneshmand

You just posted a Times of India propaganda article to support your claim? Weren't you supposed to be a think tank of some sort? You pasted a link to a thread which had no source and had already been discarded for being a propaganda piece...

Also, every new recruit for the military and paramilitary goes through a very thorough medical exam, if you know what I mean. You think the forces wouldn't know if they had uncircumcised men in such numbers? The notion itself is laughable. What agenda are you trying to peddle here?

Furthermore, had you done some of the suggested research yourself, you'd have found that, be it a Sunnah or not, all the surveys conducted on the prevalence of circumcision in the world put Pakistan in the highest bracket (>80%), which btw is the same as Iran. The UN report went as far as calling circumcision "almost universal" in Pakistan. Then there is also the fact that people living in Pakistan would be very well aware of the circumcision ceremony held soon after the birth of every man-child, which if not for religious obligations is then held for cultural obligations.

http://www.unaids.org/sites/default/files/media_asset/jc1360_male_circumcision_en_2.pdf

Chlamydia trachomatis Infection in Female Partners of Circumcised and Uncircumcised Adult Men

Circumcised Men (%) - Country Rankings

And as fas as Daneshmand's experience goes, I happen to have half a dozen doctors around me and they all believe it to be very rare and that too confined to poor rural populations.


ps: These reports also make it amply clear how less or more prevalent circumcision is in Sunni majority countries against Shia majority countries.

Atanz I don't understand why you are getting so worked up? You coming to his rescue was expected, but you getting so worked up?

The point here is that it is a recommended Sunnah which the majority follow.

Now why is it that you and Daneshmand are so adamant at proving that being uncircumcised is very common in Pakistan? Therefore each time there is an attack and uncircumcised terrorist are caught with their pants down, people like you both are at the forefront of negating the notion that they were foreign agents.

I'm not going to talk about what the ISPR has been saying, but sure am looking forward to you both cooking up a nice story about the satanic tattoos.

Not to mention the fact that then the bodies were sent for complete post-mortem reports and had their DNA tested. These two are under the belief that Pakistan was flailing the dead terrorists' penises around as proof of foreign involvement...

You would think for a people who are forcing religion down someone else's throat would be following each and every step in the religion they are literally dying for...Since they are not even following basic Sunnah, who or what are their ideologies?

They would grow long beards and hair, wear their pants above their ankles, would kill every non-Muslim without hesitation, stamp all of Pakistan as murtad, kill innocents by the thousands, resort to suicide to further their "Islamic" goals all based on incorrect and loose interpretations of the Quran and Hadith.... but matters as clear as circumcision and tattoos? No, they don't feel like following those because they aren't "compulsory"....

 

[jaibi]

@Indus Falcon @Daneshmand

If you guys could be a bit civil to one another and not get flamed up on the sectarian lines your exchange would be so fruitful for all. It's an important discussion.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Daneshmand



You just posted a Times of India propaganda article to support your claim? Weren't you supposed to be a think tank of some sort? You pasted a link to a thread which had no source and had already been discarded for being a propaganda piece...

Also, every new recruit for the military and paramilitary goes through a very thorough medical exam, if you know what I mean. You think the forces wouldn't know if they had uncircumcised men in such numbers? The notion itself is laughable. What agenda are you trying to peddle here?

Furthermore, had you done some of the suggested research yourself, you'd have found that, be it a Sunnah or not, all the surveys conducted on the prevalence of circumcision in the world put Pakistan in the highest bracket (>80%), which btw is the same as Iran. The UN report went as far as calling circumcision "almost universal" in Pakistan. Then there is also the fact that people living in Pakistan would be very well aware of the circumcision ceremony held soon after the birth of every man-child, which if not for religious obligations is then held for cultural obligations.

http://www.unaids.org/sites/default/files/media_asset/jc1360_male_circumcision_en_2.pdf

Chlamydia trachomatis Infection in Female Partners of Circumcised and Uncircumcised Adult Men

Circumcised Men (%) - Country Rankings

And as fas as Daneshmand's experience goes, I happen to have half a dozen doctors around me and they all believe it to be very rare and that too confined to poor rural populations.


ps: These reports also make it amply clear how less or more prevalent circumcision is in Sunni majority countries against Shia majority countries.



Not to mention the fact that then the bodies were sent for complete post-mortem reports and had their DNA tested. These two are under the belief that Pakistan was flailing the dead terrorists' penises around as proof of foreign involvement...



They would grow long beards and hair, wear their pants above their ankles, would kill every non-Muslim without hesitation, stamp all of Pakistan as murtad, kill innocents by the thousands, resort to suicide to further their "Islamic" goals all based on incorrect and loose interpretations of the Quran and Hadith.... but matters as clear as circumcision and tattoos? No, they don't feel like following those because they aren't "compulsory"....

Hi,

I believe that I may have a little more information than any written material that most of the guys have over here-----. Daneshmand is correct.

As I have stated many a times----my father was a doctor in railway service---a divisional medical officer---during his monthly tours---he worked in backward areas many a times---Punjab----Sindh---baluchistan. My uncle--older cousin of my father was a doctor as well---he worked as a DHO and MS in Dera Ghazi Khan area in the 70's and 80's----.

I remember them telling us---that many a poor from interior Baluchistan and Sindh and Punjab and frontier did not know the KALIMAH ---neither the first nor the second----totally illiterate about religion.

So many of them were not circumcised either---because they had no resource---so much poverty. Circumcision is not a Litmus test for being a muslim in the poor areas of Pakistan.