PA TANKS comparison with contempory tanks

[Dazzler]

Man thats the mk-2 round with 500 mm ,the new round had 610 mm.It was developed from this round.

Also i hope u are satisfied with the turret geometry flaws in al khalid argument?

Again, the round is based on Israeli/ OFB CL-MII series round, has several issues with propellent since the parent company (IMI) was blacklisted for corruption charges, you guys are now in a mess since DRDO cant make the round work and only left bidders are asking a whopping 400 % increased rates for new rounds including Invar/ Refleks missile.

Sigh!

On arguments, well, ameteur arguments really, less substance no evidence and too much bla bla

Turret geometry covers 60 deg easily so no problem there, these theoritical arguments mean nothing.

The user (PA) has tried and tested the thing hundreds of time they had no issues. Morocco, Bangladesh and recently Myanmar also bought MBT 2000s without any issues of turret geometry.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Again, the round is based on Israeli/ OFB CL-MII series round, has several issues with propellent since the parent company (IMI) was blacklisted for corruption charges, you guys are now in a mess since DRDO cant make the round work and only left bidders are asking a whopping 400 % increased rates for new rounds including Invar/ Refleks missile.

Sigh!

On arguments, well, ameteur arguments really, less substance no evidence and too much bla bla

Turret geometry covers 60 deg easily so no problem there, these theoritical arguments mean nothing.

The user (PA) has tried and tested the thing hundreds of time they had no issues. Morocco, Bangladesh and recently Myanmar also bought MBT 2000s without any issues of turret geometry.

DRDO already HAS produced that round.
AS usual in the end u couldn't resist trolling,chinese tank design philosophy is simply inferior,vulnerable to sloped exposed roof,Vulnerable to slant shots as angle is noobish and frontal arc doesn't cover sides,also ERA coverage is far less dense than t-90 and also has less composite armour than t-90,It was proven with diagrams but as a closet troll u lost the argument and resorted to 'theoritical arguments mean nothing'.LOL.
Have bangladesh,myanmar and and morocco faced enemy tanks in combat?

 

[Dazzler]

DRDO already HAS produced that round.
AS usual in the end u couldn't resist trolling,chinese tank design philosophy is simply inferior,vulnerable to sloped exposed roof,Vulnerable to slant shots as angle is noobish and frontal arc doesn't cover sides,also ERA coverage is far less dense than t-90 and also has less composite armour than t-90,It was proven with diagrams but as a closet troll u lost the argument and resorted to 'theoritical arguments mean nothing'.LOL.
Have bangladesh,myanmar and and morocco faced enemy tanks in combat?

First, that DRDO round i.e. AMK-340 is till NOT in service, cant you just google it if it is in service???

Problems is that you guys live in a dilusional world and cant swallow reality. I kept a polite tone all the way but i cant agree with crappy rhetorical stuff, sorry.

2. Just because they didnt see tank battle does it make their Armies inferior or unaware of Tank usge in a warfare?? LOL

Bring something more constructive and educational than we will talk.

Lastly, i will accept Chinese tank philosophy is inferior the day i see AK, Type-99s blwoing up the way T-72s during gulf and other battles around the world, till then, keep waiting

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

First, that DRDO round i.e. AMK-340 is till NOT in service, cant you just google it if it is in service???

Problems is that you guys live in a dilusional world and cant swallow reality. I kept a polite tone all the way but i cant agree with crappy rhetorical stuff, sorry.

Bring something more constructive and educational than we will talk.

Calling me delusional?Tell me is niaza 2 in service?Can u give me a single source except rumours of massive pentration of niaza 2?
And as for turret geometry and armour weakness u couldn't accept solid diagrams based on just geometry, no rhetoric,it just proves you were biased all along and had made up your mind and not really interested in open argument.Those diagrams are rock solid,no rhetoric in them..just math.Name what 'rhetoric u see in them?
First u go bring something constructive,then we might talk.I already laid down my argument with solid diagrams...u called it theoritical,bla bla,laughed then ran away calling it rhetoric without being able to point out any flaw in those diagrams.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Its still carousel type autoloader.

how do u knw?
R u a member of HIT?

Do u drive this tank?

r u part of its R&D setup?

First learn then comment.

 

[Dazzler]

Calling me delusional?Tell me is niaza 2 in service?Can u give me a single source except rumours of massive pentration of niaza 2?
And as for turret geometry and armour weakness u couldn't accept solid diagrams based on just geometry, no rhetoric,it just proves you were biased all along and had made up your mind and not really interested in open argument.Those diagrams are rock solid,no rhetoric in them..just math.Name what 'rhetoric u see in them?
First u go bring something constructive,then we might talk.I already laid down my argument with solid diagrams...u called it theoritical,bla bla,laughed then ran away calling it rhetoric without being able to point out any flaw in those diagrams.

Naiza 2 is already in service kiddo, for a few years, data is NOT available but sources say it is 650+ at 2000, could be more.

I am open to argument but you have too, seems like you are offended on something.

The fact is, Indian Army is at the moment at a disadvantage in tank warfare for several reasons, no suitable APFSDS, substandard rounds exploding, Arjun has its own problems. Till these are rectified, things will remain the same.

AMK 340

Specifications

Weights: projectile with sabot and propellant charge : 19.3 kg
Muzzle velocity:1600m/s
Chamber Pressure :520 MPa

include more to this...

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Naiza 2 is already in service kiddo, for a few years, data is NOT available but sources say it is 650+ at 2000, could be more.

I am open to argument but you have too, seems like you are offended on something.

The fact is, Indian Army is at the moment at a disadvantage in tank warfare for several reasons, no suitable APFSDS, substandard rounds exploding, Arjun has its own problems. Till these are rectified, things will remain the same.

As usual you are congratulating urself.
I am saying the OFB new round is now developed,ur saying based on old news its blown up.Ur saying niaza 2 is in service,i'm saying far from so ..and that its for al khalid 2..also doubt whether it would fit on existing loader.[probably reason why ak-2 is said to have new loader].None of us can give any solid official statement or pics as sources that depict their penetration.
It becomes ur word vs mine.

As for indian army disadvantage,lol.I just showed to you ur entire tank fleet has poor turret geometry inherited from chinese design.In a tank to tank battle while khalid would match t-90 in mobility and firepower it would be outmatched in armour due to its several weaknesses in this area.

how do u knw?
R u a member of HIT?

Do u drive this tank?

r u part of its R&D setup?

First learn then comment.

Al khalid turret doesn't have enough space for western bustle type loader and also because we have seen pics of interior of khalid.All t-series and chinese mbts including mbt-2000 which is base of al khalid have carousel autoloader.
You need to find out about ur own tank some more before making premature comments,do u even know what is difference between carousel and bustle loader?

 

[Dazzler]

AK autoloader is deeply modified, here is your evidence, its very much a different version now, regarding Naiza-2, my source is not available on internet so you are free to believe or reject. You give me a source for AMK-340 mk-II?

AK has 1200 HP engine, SESM 500 auto transmission with Multiple Reverse speed transmission t-90 has 1000 hp engine and manual transmission, It has Boron based multi layered composite armour as per sources i shared, good luck in defeating it with current APFSDS or HEAT rounds.

Turret armour is 650-700 without ERA, thats more than T-90 which has around580 mm at best without ERA.

For your turret geometry rhetoric, it is only important at relatively close ranges when you can SEE the damn thing. You arm chair generals have no clue of the battle field

GOSH!

Solid State Autoloader

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

AK autoloader is deeply modified, here is your evidence, its very much a different version now, regarding Naiza-2, my source is not available on internet so you are free to believe or reject. You give me a source for AMK-340 mk-II?

AK has 1200 HP engine, SESM 500 auto transmission with Multiple Reverse speed transmission t-90 has 1000 hp engine and manual transmission, It has Boron based composite as per sources i shared, good luck in defeating it with current APFSDS or HEAT rounds.

Turret armour is 650-700 without ERA, thats more than T-90 which has around580 mm at best without ERA.

Solid State Autoloader

link is not working.Post the pics and article.And i hope its not mere prototype but standrad new operational version as u say.

 

[Dazzler]

link is not working.Post the pics and article.And i hope its not mere prototype but standrad new operational version as u say.

here you go... and its operational on AK and AK-1 both


Modern warfare demands installation of robust control systems in main battle tank to enhance firepower and maneuverability. CARE has developed Solid State Autoloader for Pakistan Army main battle tank MBT Al-Khalid, replacing the Chinese Autoloader. The auto-loading mechanism consists of two subsections, the Motorized Mechanical Subsystem consisting of carousel magazine, hoister mechanism, ejection frame and window assemblies etc. Driven by several high power motors and solenoids along with mechanical proximity switches. The other part is the electric control subsystem, responsible for coordinated control of various operations carried out by the mechanical subsystem.

The solid state Autoloader developed by CARE has eliminated the need for relay and utilizes the latest solid-state electronic devices to provide the control functionalities hence leading to most reliable system.

Completely solid-state design with NO RELAYS

Design based on programmable logic, processor and FPGAs

100% compatible with Tank's existing mechanical design / mounting as well as the wiring harness and connectors

Bi-directional carousal motion leading to substantial reduction in the maximum loading time for the farthest ammo

Simultaneous display of the number of each ammo type (i.e. HE/HA/AP) present in carousel magazine along with the number of empty trays

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

AK autoloader is deeply modified, here is your evidence, its very much a different version now, regarding Naiza-2, my source is not available on internet so you are free to believe or reject. You give me a source for AMK-340 mk-II?

AK has 1200 HP engine, SESM 500 auto transmission with Multiple Reverse speed transmission t-90 has 1000 hp engine and manual transmission, It has Boron based multi layered composite armour as per sources i shared, good luck in defeating it with current APFSDS or HEAT rounds.

Turret armour is 650-700 without ERA, thats more than T-90 which has around580 mm at best without ERA.

For your turret geometry rhetoric, it is only important at relatively close ranges when you can SEE the damn thing. You arm chair generals have no clue of the battle field

GOSH!

Solid State Autoloader

FOR T-90 armour just plain rubbish.Don't know where u got ur value,Your probably quoting old cast armour value which was just upgraded t-72 from early 90s.Not welded armour value which gives 30-50% over cast armour value.t-90 armour without ERA is 750 mm .Add heavy ERA.
You have no idea as usual,there is no guarantee that in long range fights shots will come straight.They my come at any angle as both are moving or can come face to face at any angle,and with your exposed sloped roof,two sides and incomplete frontal ERA coverage far more vulnerable than t-90.Also if u compared diagrams the quantity of composite armour in chinesae design mbts is less than t-90 which packs all of its composite armour in solid arc.

here you go... and its operational on AK and AK-1 both


Modern warfare demands installation of robust control systems in main battle tank to enhance firepower and maneuverability. CARE has developed Solid State Autoloader for Pakistan Army main battle tank MBT Al-Khalid, replacing the Chinese Autoloader. The auto-loading mechanism consists of two subsections, the Motorized Mechanical Subsystem consisting of carousel magazine, hoister mechanism, ejection frame and window assemblies etc. Driven by several high power motors and solenoids along with mechanical proximity switches. The other part is the electric control subsystem, responsible for coordinated control of various operations carried out by the mechanical subsystem.

The solid state Autoloader developed by CARE has eliminated the need for relay and utilizes the latest solid-state electronic devices to provide the control functionalities hence leading to most reliable system.

Completely solid-state design with NO RELAYS

Design based on programmable logic, processor and FPGAs

100% compatible with Tank's existing mechanical design / mounting as well as the wiring harness and connectors

Bi-directional carousal motion leading to substantial reduction in the maximum loading time for the farthest ammo

Simultaneous display of the number of each ammo type (i.e. HE/HA/AP) present in carousel magazine along with the number of empty trays

I din't get anything on new operational round or penetration here.Just a pak designed autoloader replacing chinese one that reduces loading time and is supposedly more reliable.Didn't even mention niaza 2 or anything.Its still carousel and can only hold limited length penetrator eventually.

 

[Dazzler]

FOR T-90 armour just plain rubbish.Don't know where u got ur value,Your probably quoting old cast armour value which was just upgraded t-72 from early 90s.Not welded armour value which gives 30-50% over cast armour value.t-90 armour without ERA is 750 mm .Add heavy ERA.
You have no idea as usual,there is no guarantee that in long range fights shots will come straight.They my come at any angle as both are moving or can come face to face at any angle,and with your exposed sloped roof,two sides and incomplete frontal ERA coverage far more vulnerable than t-90.Also if u compared diagrams the quantity of composite armour in chinesae design mbts is less than t-90 which packs all of its composite armour in solid arc.

LOL

little correction, Cast or welded are turrets, not armour Both tanks have welded turrets

I am talking about the composite armour stored within cavities inside the turret at the front, sides sometimes as in Western tanks ala Leo, M1.

AK has thick dense composite armour with multiple layers, making AP penetration more difficult. Can you share T-90s composite armour? ERA here is not included.

ERA is added as an additional armour layer or last ditch effort. If you are willing to listen, Turret angle is ONLY advantageous when you can see your enemy, not when enemy is 2 kms away from you, it makes a BG difference lad. Thats why they made sophisticated FCS and Night visions to kill it before it kills you, way before

T-90 turret amour...

 

[Dazzler]

As per Fofanov...


Side turret ranges from 40-60cm thick near front thinning to ~ 15-20cm around back. This is probably half and half cast/STEF thus the KE armor is 0.66 while the HEAT armor is 0.77. The effective KE armor ranges from 40cm narrowing quickly to 26cm and 10-13cm around back. The HEAT armor ranges from 46-31cm near the front down to 15-12cm Around back. In the side and rear turret are mounted external storage boxes ~50cm thick that will offer a modicum of spaced armor, this may amount to an additonal ~13-15cm HEAT armor. Additionally K-5 is mounted around the front side of the turret.

The side hull is 6cm thick rolled steel but the lower side hull around the wheels is probably only 2cm thick; side skirts add 25 mm thick reinforced rubber [with steel?] plate plus 60cm airgap increasing the HEAT armor by about 15-17cm against 2nd gen and 26-28cm against 1st gen warheads.

This rubber skirting is unlikely to add more than 1cm to the KE side armor, due to deflection. The fuel tanks along the sponsons should add 65cm x 0.1 KE and 0.3 HEAT or an additional 6-7cm KE and ~ 20cm HEAT armor. Over the front half of the side hull Kontakt-5 is mounted which probably adds ~30cm HEAT and at least 5 cm KE resistance.

The rear armor is unlikely to be more than 4cm but fuel tanks mounted there could offer 0.1 to 0.15 Te resistance to APFSDS and 0.34 resistance to HEAT. The HEAT armor would range from 3-4cm to as much as 18cm additional HEAT armor.

 

[Dazzler]

FOR T-90 armour just plain rubbish.Don't know where u got ur value,Your probably quoting old cast armour value which was just upgraded t-72 from early 90s.Not welded armour value which gives 30-50% over cast armour value.t-90 armour without ERA is 750 mm .Add heavy ERA.
You have no idea as usual,there is no guarantee that in long range fights shots will come straight.They my come at any angle as both are moving or can come face to face at any angle,and with your exposed sloped roof,two sides and incomplete frontal ERA coverage far more vulnerable than t-90.Also if u compared diagrams the quantity of composite armour in chinesae design mbts is less than t-90 which packs all of its composite armour in solid arc.



I din't get anything on new operational round or penetration here.Just a pak designed autoloader replacing chinese one that reduces loading time and is supposedly more reliable.Didn't even mention niaza 2 or anything.Its still carousel and can only hold limited length penetrator eventually.

in simple words, the carousel is made in HIT with increased width that fits the tank hull (700 mm) to make it work, they needed weight reduction so electric system was seeked. This combination provides dual advantage

1. longer rounds can be loaded in a smooth hassle free way, no more limb chopping or relay switching and

2. ginner has the ease of a faster, more digitized autoloader that can be operated with ease of maintenance

 

[Dazzler]

notice the round below with enhance penetration and longer lod...