Overcoming Turkey’s policy blunder concerning India

[Aslan]

Look buddy i am not at all worried about this point scoring. I perfectly know the reality of this interest of the world in India and that too recently.

If u would read my first post, i have no problem with Turkey's actions as it is their personal choice of what to do and what not to do. I was clearly surprised by this article and was asking the veracity of this article to which Jigs confirmed my suspicion that the news paper is not an accurate one. After being on this forum for some time and since strategic discussions are my interest, (i follow discussions by all Think Tanks and senior members and i mean on both sides) i have learnt one or two things about such issues. A single article doesn't change anything.

As espoused by you once the trade relations between India and Turkey increase then we can think of India influencing them, for now it is not going to happen. Also geographical and religious contentions are great barriers for this relationship to blossom.

I am not trying to score any thing here, so chill. Just made an observation as I though is the case. I could be wrong. But am not trying to get into a mudslinging contest here. So relax.

 

[indushek]

I am not trying to score any thing here, so chill. Just made an observation as I though is the case. I could be wrong. But am not trying to get into a mudslinging contest here. So relax.

No no u misunderstand me i was talking about the diplomatic point scoring, not of the one in this forum we day in day out have. I am sorry if i was not clear but ur observation is completely on the right track and very accurate. Infact i am accepting ur view.

All i am saying is that for India to gain strategic foothold in Middle East will take more time and ur government does have good political clout there resultant of your deep engagement there.

 

[subject17]

@Indians : It's a article by a Turkish, so why care too much, no one in India even bothered about the exclusion.

btw anyone knows how much business happens between turkey and pakistan? that might be interesting.

 

[Aslan]

No no u misunderstand me i was talking about the diplomatic point scoring, not of the one in this forum we day in day out have. I am sorry if i was not clear but ur observation is completely on the right track and very accurate. Infact i am accepting ur view.

All i am saying is that for India to gain strategic foothold in Middle East will take more time and ur government does have good political clout there resultant of your deep engagement there.

To be very frank the indian foothold in the ME is very strong because of the work force that is here, and also because of the efforts made by the indian political elites. Turkey on the other hand is a different issue all together. The people of Turkey have a very close relationship with the people of Pakistan, so it will be quiet hard for the indian hierarchy to try to pressurize them to strangle Pakistan.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

To be very frank the indian foothold in the ME is very strong because of the work force that is here, and also because of the efforts made by the indian political elites. Turkey on the other hand is a different issue all together. The people of Turkey have a very close relationship with the people of Pakistan, so it will be quiet hard for the indian hierarchy to try to pressurize them to strangle Pakistan.

Another reason,being our relationship with Turkey being limited ,in terms of trade, strategic interests ,..........

Also Turkey is immune to changes which happen in the subcontinent.

So their policy towards Pakistan is very independent.

 

[Aslan]

Another reason,being our relationship with Turkey being limited ,in terms of trade, strategic interests ,..........

Also Turkey is immune to changes which happen in the subcontinent.

So their policy towards Pakistan is very independent.

Also the Turks see a potential in growth and a partnership that they can develop with the central Asian countries, Pakistan and through us China. And we will see more effective policy shift once the Pakistan, Iran, Turkey rail link becomes a reality.

 

[StingRoy]

Lets reverse the scenario for a sec and lets say that Turkey had invited india and ignored Pakistan, what would you have thought of that. Just curious.

Why should it have ignored Pakistan? Pakistan has a say in Afghan matters as well and is also suffering because of the ongoing situation there. As a neighbor it has more at stake.

I am not denying and not opposed to Pakistan's involvement in Afghanistan, but definitely would voice my objection in any deliberate attempt to sideline India. At this time of hour what we need is to help stabilize Afghanistan in whatever way possible... there has been not much development in that area for decades and the war has just aggravated the situation.

Keep aside the politics and help the people in need.

 

[TechLahore]

And I can sense the resentment a Pakistani would derive from India's exalted standing in global affairs. Its a legitimate concern if India is left out of Afghanistan.

On the one hand you claim an "exalted standing" (seriously??!!) and on the other you complain, no express "legitimate concern", regarding Turkey excluding you from the Afghan summit. Which is it??

Also, my friend, let's not puff up our chest to such a degree that we start to appear comical. If you are proud of your standing in the world, it is best to keep the joy in your heart and walk humbly. You don't call yourself "exalted". It wreaks of bad taste and chips on the shoulder. Just friendly feedback. You can proceed as you wish.

 

[indushek]

Another reason,being our relationship with Turkey being limited ,in terms of trade, strategic interests ,..........

Also Turkey is immune to changes which happen in the subcontinent.

So their policy towards Pakistan is very independent.

You are perfectly right. If the articles mentioning of a joint study on common interests does fructify may be we could see broader engagement.

 

[Nalwa]

On the one hand you claim an "exalted standing" (seriously??!!) and on the other you complain, no express "legitimate concern", regarding Turkey excluding you from the Afghan summit. Which is it??

Also, my friend, let's not puff up our chest to such a degree that we start to appear comical. If you are proud of your standing in the world, it is best to keep the joy in your heart and walk humbly. You don't call yourself "exalted". It wreaks of bad taste and chips on the shoulder. Just friendly feedback. You can proceed as you wish.

Thanks. Will remember that feedback. Can you also provide feedback on the other half of my post regarding Pakistani resentment against India's rise? That isn't ill-founded is it?

 

[TechLahore]

On a slightly different note, Turkiye sees itself at the center of a regional framework that doesn't have much to do with India. Turks have cultural affinity and ties with Central Asia, Iran, Pakistan and the Middle East. Davotaglu's "Look East" policy is centered on these partnerships. There was a recent news item which contemplated Turkey's partnership with Iran, Iraq, Syria etc. to create a trading bloc. In the past, Turkey was part of the RCD with Iran and Pakistan. Even today, many of the major infrastructure projects in the region, such as the Istanbul-Tehran-Islamabad railway project, are being undertaken by countries in this partnership. So, Turkey doesn't really have a very co-dependent existence with India and (in my view) doesn't see India as immediately important to its foreign policy. They have bigger issues to address, larger markets to build strong positions in and different regional alliances to cement.

These, in my view, are the reasons why Turkey favoured Pakistan's position and left India out of the Afghan summit. Perhaps our Turkish brothers can enlighten us further.

 

[Aslan]

Why should it have ignored Pakistan? Pakistan has a say in Afghan matters as well and is also suffering because of the ongoing situation there. As a neighbor it has more at stake.

I am not denying and not opposed to Pakistan's involvement in Afghanistan, but definitely would voice my objection in any deliberate attempt to sideline India. At this time of hour what we need is to help stabilize Afghanistan in whatever way possible... there has been not much development in that area for decades and the war has just aggravated the situation.

Keep aside the politics and help the people in need.

I completely agree with you and to the point that we have to stand together to help the people of Afghanistan. But frankly speaking what happen in Turkey was a retaliation of the actions of the indian gov to sideline Pakistan on every forum. So the major shift in their attitude will have to come from the indian gov. As they are not ready to deal with things in a straight forward manner and are more inclined towards blocking any steps that Pakistan would take. I also know that we Pakistanis are no angles either....................... Well lets leave it to the point that we should let go of our egos and start fixing our relationship. And that is the only way forward. Or else it will be the same sh!tty story day in day out. Pakistan did this india retaliated like that, and india did that and Pakistan retaliated like this.

 

[indushek]

On a slightly different note, Turkiye sees itself at the center of a regional framework that doesn't have much to do with India. Turks have cultural affinity and ties with Central Asia, Iran, Pakistan and the Middle East. Davotaglu's "Look East" policy is centered on these partnerships. There was a recent news item which contemplated Turkey's partnership with Iran, Iraq, Syria etc. to create a trading bloc. In the past, Turkey was part of the RCD with Iran and Pakistan. Even today, many of the major infrastructure projects in the region, such as the Istanbul-Tehran-Islamabad railway project, are being undertaken by countries in this partnership. So, Turkey doesn't really have a very co-dependent existence with India and (in my view) doesn't see India as immediately important to its foreign policy. They have bigger issues to address, larger markets to build strong positions in and different regional alliances to cement.

These, in my view, are the reasons why Turkey favoured Pakistan's position and left India out of the Afghan summit. Perhaps our Turkish brothers can enlighten us further.

You have perfectly put forward all the arguments on the topic, i would like to add that geographical distances between our two countries also plays an important factor here. In addition Pakistan has always actively participated in helping the middle eastern countries in times of war with Israel and other deeper engagements could also add to the mix. Am i right??

 

[TechLahore]

Thanks. Will remember that feedback. Can you also provide feedback on the other half of my post regarding Pakistani resentment against India's rise? That isn't ill-founded is it?

Bhai, Pakistanis don't "resent India's rise". I am being 100% honest with you so please don't take this the wrong way. I think my friends within India make more of this "rise" than the rest of the world does. You remember the whole "Shining India" situation from a few years ago? That didn't end too well and became the source of much criticism and negativity. I don't think Pakistanis in general buy the fact that India is more developed than Pakistan, economically better off from the point of the view of the average citizen (i.e. per capita) - than Pakistan, or cleaner/nicer/more advanced than Pakistan. I am being super honest with you and I am not trying to say anything bad against India. I am just telling you that when my friends or acquaintances have visited India, this has pretty much been their feedback.

I keep hearing from my Indian friends on this forum that they believe Pakistanis are resentful of them or jealous of them and in my personal experience I can honestly tell you nothing could be farther from the truth. See, for much of the 63 years of our history as independent countries, Pakistan has had a significantly higher per capita income as compared to India. Now we are at rough parity, but attitudes towards India have been formed not over the last 3 years, but over the last 63 years. So, we've been quite a bit better off pretty much since our independence. What cause then, is there for jealousy?

Yes, from our perspective, we do resent the fact that (in our minds at least, and from our point of view), India has never accepted Pakistan as a neighbour, equal partner etc. But I think our reaction to this has mostly been to buckle down and put in a lot of energy into building a credible deterrent. An endeavour you may agree or disagree with, but one which I think we have succeeded in.

You see you have to be objective. Yes, Pakistan is a smaller country than India. But it is still the 6th most populous state in the world. So I don't think anyone in their right mind can think that Pakistan will simply be ignored in the global calculus due to India's "rise". It can't happen and Pakistanis generally know this... at least the rational ones. Then there is a small minority of the irrational ones who think 1 of them is worth 10 indians, but that is over confidence... we won't consider the views of such fools on either side.

Net-net, India is a large country, inshaAllah with a great future. Best of luck to you and India. I don't wish you ill. At the same time, I have witnessed the development in Pakistan during my own life time and have had an opportunity to objectively compare where we were in '47 and where we are now. I have absolutely no doubt that Pakistan will be one of the most successful and important countries in the world. To each his own. There is no need for jealousy on either side.

 

[EjazR]

I think most people when evaluating Turkish-Pakistani and Turkish Indian relations miss the bigger picture of the Cold War history which played a major role in forign policy of not just Turkey but most countries around the world.

So because Pakistan was firmly in the US camp, It had excellent relations with all Cold war allies like Turkey, Iran before the fall of Shah, Iraq before the military coup, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and so on.

India on the other hand beingmore neutral and later leaning towards the USSR had better relations with left leaning or nationalist countries like Egypt under Gamal Abdel Nasr, Syria, Iraq,Iran after the Shah and Communist South Yemen, Palestine's PLO and so on.

Its only post USSR breakup that countries are re-evaluating the new world order. US has still not completely come out of the mindset. But you can see in the way that Saudi Arabia is normalising relations with India and similarly how Turkey wants to do the same the end of the Cold War mindset. New relations are being formed and there are no specific "camps" which is what defined the last 50-60 years. This is where you have Turkey stressing the importance of Indian-Pakistani bilateral talks to resolve the issue rather than the origninal demand of UN referendum.

There are probably as the author suggests diplomats and policy wonks in New Delhi who are not that enthusiastic about Turkey. However, it is interesting to note that it was the BJP led govt. under Vajpayee that played an instrumental role in normalising relations with Turkey in early 2000-2001.