Opinionated - I wish Pakistan had a more competent enemy than India

[SuvarnaTeja]

Even tho I think the thread post is a pile of BS.. you aint better either mate... 50% really ?

Last time I checked the figure was about 18%

What I meant was 50% of available funds.

Pakistan spends 41 percent of its expenditure towards debt servicing.

This year, Pakistan officially allocated $7.85bn for defence + $2bn in military pensions

The above does not include the revenues made from Pakistan's military run private businesses and unofficial funding towards asymmetric warfare.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Only realistic options here are 3 and 5

Make good Friends rather then COMPOTENT ENEMY, and Invest get a rid of poverty from the COMMON PEOPLE of Pakistan, and your thread is not worth posting and should be closed, its might be your personal thinking

 

[airmarshal]

This attitude is the reason Pakistan has gotten so complacent.

If we "respect" our opponent India, then we will always be trying to stay even with a country as incompetent as India, which will make us equally as incompetent. Maybe if we had a real enemy, we would be forced to innovate more, and Pakistan would be more shrewd like Iran, Turkey, and China. Bajwa entering politics is shameful. Instead Pakistan's military has gotten extremely complacent and relaxed, languishing in the dustbin as an afterthought due to the lack of a clear threat or coherent vision requiring military innovation.

Enemy countries will always counter what their enemy does. India is only an ideological threat, evidenced by the fact that IK tweets about RSS every week but never takes any military action against such a threat. Hence Pakistan counters India's ideology but does not do anything else, resulting in military innovation getting ignored and languishing for decades. Pakistan's military will not innovate unless confronted with a more competent enemy than India, but waiting until that time is not smart. Right now, since India is incompetent, Pakistan military has no incentive to innovate which is a big problem for us. Pakistan should have started hitting India with cyberattacks and drones years ago, but we haven't because India hasn't used them against us first, and stupidly we are waiting for them to do it first, so that we can innovate and catch up to them later.

Actually, we are as mediocre as India. In our media, we are even more mediocre. The problem is not India. The problem is South Asian mentality which is lethargic and complacent. Look at Turkey. How they are innovating in defence technology. They have demonstrated their accomplishments in Azerbaijan and Libya in the last one year.

We are such a big country and just look at our productivity. Its not just defence. Look at the structure of the economy. We have been into IMF program 18th time! This shows lack of focus and lethargy, not lack of competition. We are neighbours with China. Can there be a better country to emulate today than China? What have we learnt from their economic miracle of the past 4 decades?

I m not a sociologist but I have observed one thing travelling around the world. The people like us Pakistanis who wake up late, they are very much like us in productivity - low. Look at all of Middle East native populations. The people who wake up early, their nations are top achievers. Look at Europe and North America.

No wonder Islam emphasizes on waking up early at tahujjad or fajr time.

There might be a correlation between waking up early and high productivity of nations but this is just my observation.

 

[El Sidd]

South Asian mentality

How can a state of mind be attributed to a geographical limitation?

Maybe it's ape see ape do

 

[Avatar]

China will turn on you in the next 20 years and all your wishes will come true.

Actually, we are as mediocre as India. In our media, we are even more mediocre. The problem is not India. The problem is South Asian mentality which is lethargic and complacent. Look at Turkey. How they are innovating in defence technology. They have demonstrated their accomplishments in Azerbaijan and Libya in the last one year.

We are such a big country and just look at our productivity. Its not just defence. Look at the structure of the economy. We have been into IMF program 18th time! This shows lack of focus and lethargy, not lack of competition. We are neighbours with China. Can there be a better country to emulate today than China? What have we learnt from their economic miracle of the past 4 decades?

I m not a sociologist but I have observed one thing travelling around the world. The people like us Pakistanis who wake up late, they are very much like us in productivity - low. Look at all of Middle East native populations. The people who wake up early, their nations are top achievers. Look at Europe and North America.

No wonder Islam emphasizes on waking up early at tahujjad or fajr time.

There might be a correlation between waking up early and high productivity of nations but this is just my observation.

You are absolutely correct and you make some important observations that are relevant to the case of India.
I feel the problem is in the mindset and solutions lie in innovation and entrepreneurship. The entire subcontinent has common values that have descended from the colonial system that we were governed with. In Pakistan, Feudalism is a much bigger problem than India but otherwise we both have political inefficiencies, massive corruption, slow government actions, and simply inadequate talent because of lack of enough high quality insititutes and infrastructure. We need to stop making excuses and just accept the blame that we have been lazy and we can do a lot better - put out the same efforts as the Chinese have into building our nations instead of relying on foreign partners to float our boats.

Only realistic options here are 3 and 5

Bhai pehle jitna khaya hai utna toh hajam kar lo.. First try to finish whats on your plate before looking at the menufor more

Nah, he gave a good list. But the problem is that you think India isn't a "competent enemy".

Sure, it might not be conventionally but who fights conventional wars anymore??

India has killed more than 50,000 Pakistanis since 9/11 and now has a tighter grip on Kashmir and is already eyeing Azad Kashmir.....what has Pakistan or the Pakistani Armed Forces done in the last 20 years to confront India?? Rather than confront India.....our house has been on fire and we have lost a lot of blood, sweat and tears just to keep it together.

What we need is a competent Pakistan, competent Pakistanis and competent Pakistani Armed Forces.

Every time you confronted India you buckled and fell flat on your face. It simply cannot happen that you win a war on the basis of religious sentiments or over-exaggerated ideals. It is impractical for Pakistan and Pakistanis to assume that they can ever be prosperous while harboring enmity with a giant neighbor like India. Even China is looking to come out of the ladakh curry ASAP as the stakes have become bigger than anything anyone expected. You have to think of what will you focus on after Kashmir is solved? Will ties become normalized with India?

 

[Falcon26]

China will turn on you in the next 20 years and all your wishes will come true.

You are absolutely correct and you make some important observations that are relevant to the case of India.
I feel the problem is in the mindset and solutions lie in innovation and entrepreneurship. The entire subcontinent has common values that have descended from the colonial system that we were governed with. In Pakistan, Feudalism is a much bigger problem than India but otherwise we both have political inefficiencies, massive corruption, slow government actions, and simply inadequate talent because of lack of enough high quality insititutes and infrastructure. We need to stop making excuses and just accept the blame that we have been lazy and we can do a lot better - put out the same efforts as the Chinese have into building our nations instead of relying on foreign partners to float our boats.

Bhai pehle jitna khaya hai utna toh hajam kar lo.. First try to finish whats on your plate before looking at the menufor more

Well argued post.

feudalism is Pakistan’s main bottleneck and poses an existential threat. It permeates through its military, politics, business and media. How pakistan tackles feudalism will determine the fate of Pakistan. It’s a far bigger threat than India ever could.

for example

https://twitter.com/x/status/1321476948426711042

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

China will turn on you in the next 20 years and all your wishes will come true.

You are absolutely correct and you make some important observations that are relevant to the case of India.
I feel the problem is in the mindset and solutions lie in innovation and entrepreneurship. The entire subcontinent has common values that have descended from the colonial system that we were governed with. In Pakistan, Feudalism is a much bigger problem than India but otherwise we both have political inefficiencies, massive corruption, slow government actions, and simply inadequate talent because of lack of enough high quality insititutes and infrastructure. We need to stop making excuses and just accept the blame that we have been lazy and we can do a lot better - put out the same efforts as the Chinese have into building our nations instead of relying on foreign partners to float our boats.

Bhai pehle jitna khaya hai utna toh hajam kar lo.. First try to finish whats on your plate before looking at the menufor more

Every time you confronted India you buckled and fell flat on your face. It simply cannot happen that you win a war on the basis of religious sentiments or over-exaggerated ideals. It is impractical for Pakistan and Pakistanis to assume that they can ever be prosperous while harboring enmity with a giant neighbor like India. Even China is looking to come out of the ladakh curry ASAP as the stakes have become bigger than anything anyone expected.

The problem is that the people in subcontinent never had a revolution.

Most Major powers had revolutions

1. American revolution & Civil war
2. Russian Revolution
3. French Revolution
4. Chinese Long March

We are peaceful people and content with what we have.

Heck we did not even fight for the Independence. Why blame the British?

 

[Avatar]

Well argued post.

feudalism is Pakistan’s main bottleneck and poses an existential threat. It permeates through its military, politics, business and media. How pakistan tackles feudalism will determine the fate of Pakistan. It’s a far bigger threat than India ever could.

I absolutely agree and I am happy to see more Pakistanis realize that India poses a lower threat than Pakistans internally harmful designs. The only way to solve these problems is that the common Pakistanis come to terms with the problem, and also understand why these bottlenecks must be resolved. The general approach has always been to ignore the real problems and create an atmosphere of fear surrounding India and everyone who says anything else is labelled an Indian agent.

 

[Surya 1]

Yeah, someone that don't shoot their own helicopter's down..

But shutdown their own plane is ok.

 

[Falcon26]

I absolutely agree and I am happy to see more Pakistanis realize that India poses a lower threat than Pakistans internally harmful designs. The only way to solve these problems is that the common Pakistanis come to terms with the problem, and also understand why these bottlenecks must be resolved. The general approach has always been to ignore the real problems and create an atmosphere of fear surrounding India and everyone who says anything else is labelled an Indian agent.

1. i am not Pakistani. My argument is based on my own observations and reading.

2. I also don’t think Pakistanis obsess over Indians. There are mutual obsessions on both sides. The perception of Pakistan in India is a carbon copy of the perception of India in Pakistan. In fact, I think it’s Indians that ignore their problems by focusing on Pakistan. Just look at the Indian elections where Pakistan is the driving vote-turner.

Pakistan has fallen behind due to feudalism and mismanagement. Bangladesh is now surging ahead of both India and Pakistan. I know the conventional default is to focus on India’s GDP growth etc, but when compared to countries such as China, Turkey, Brazil etc, the quality of life in India is in fact quite abject. Same goes for Pakistan. Both countries should focus on human development and growth. Else, the status quo will persist.

 

[Avatar]

The problem is that the people in subcontinent never had a revolution.

Most Major powers had revolutions

1. American revolution & Civil war
2. Russian Revolution
3. French Revolution
4. Chinese Long March

We are peaceful people and content with what we have.

Heck we did not even fight for the Independence. Why blame the British?

Indians can be divided into 3 types of people:
1. The elite who consolidate the power and mostly leverage it for consolodating personal wealth above everything else
2. The commoners who have the "anything goes" attitude and are largely ok with everything as long as they have food on the plate or promises of food on the plate.
3. The intellectuals who are bystanding entertainers in this arrangement. Although they understand the flaws they do very little to incite the commoners into making things right.

Now given that we are trying to operate within the inefficient deomocratic framework with more than 1 billion people, it is amazing that we have any progress at all. It means that there is some natural order in the chaos and despite of how it appears things are moving forward. Education is the key to electing responsible candidates as well as rooting out corruption that has become cancer in our socities.

1. i am not Pakistani. My argument is based on my own observations and reading.

2. I also don’t think Pakistanis obsess over Indians. There are mutual obsessions on both sides. The perception of Pakistan in India is a carbon copy of the perception of India in Pakistan. In fact, I think it’s Indians that ignore their problems by focusing on Pakistan. Just look at the Indian elections where Pakistan is the driving vote-turner.

Pakistan has fallen behind due to feudalism and mismanagement. Bangladesh is now surging ahead of both India and Pakistan. I know the conventional default is to focus on India’s GDP growth etc, but when compared to countries such as China, Turkey, Brazil etc, the quality of life in India is in fact quite abject. Same goes for Pakistan. Both countries should focus on human development and growth. Else, the status quo will persist.

If you could understand Urdu and watched any of the Pakistani news or TV channels in recent time, and you could compare it with observations of the Indian media - you will get a practical realization of how obsessed each side is with the other.

Pakistan has very little or no influence in Indian elections and Pakistan is almost never blamed for India's internal problems other than unrest in Kashmir and terror attacks that have originated from Pakistani soil.

I agree that despite GDP numbers, the real quality of life is quite bad especially in tier 1 cities of India compared with their counterparts in Brazil, etc. I hope bridging this gap becomes a priority for the present government.

 

[newb3e]

we have to fight against the lying bastards of the world Indians!!

 

[Marker]

Sometimes I look at neighboring countries like Iran, Turkey, and China and wish we had real and competent enemies like them. Iran, Turkey, and China are leaders in military innovation because they have to be more competent and shrewd than their enemies which are among the best in the world. Iran takes on Israel with cyberattacks, Turkey targets Russian assets with drones, and China is battling it out with US for control of the world. I wish Pakistan had a more competent enemy so we could innovate a bit more. Unfortunately, India is a paper tiger and as they don't present an actual military threat to Pakistan besides their cancerous ideology, our military has become complacent and cannot innovate like Iran, Turkey, or China as Pakistan lacks a competent enemy like Israel, Russia, or US. Thus Pakistan is at least 20 years way behind likes of Iran, Turkey, and China on pretty much every kind of relevant military technology you can imagine.

Just a few of the technologies Pakistan has missed out on includes:

Cyberattacks (Iran, Israel, North Korea, China, Russia, US)
Drones (Iran, Israel, Turkey, China, US)
Cheap DIY suicide drones (Iran)
Satellites (Iran, Israel, Russia, India, China, US)
Precision cruise missiles (Iran, Israel, Russia, China, US)
Civilian space program (Iran, India, Russia, China, US)
Artificial military islands (Iran, China, US)
Dual use civill/military rockets (Iran, China, Russia, US)
EMP weapons (Iran, China, Russia, US)
Asymmetric decentralized navy (Iran)
Remote control explosive boats (Iran)
Small speedboats (Iran)
EFP armor piercing IED (Iran)
Sea skimming missiles (Iran, Russia, China, US)
Artificial intelligence (Iran, Israel, Russia, China, US)
Proxy warfare (Iran, Israel, Russia, US)
Ballistic missiles (Iran, Israel, India, North Korea, China, Russia, US)
Cryptocurrency (Iran, North Korea, China, Russia)
JF-17 export restrictions
Reverse engineering (Iran, China)
Loitering munitions (Iran, Russia, China, US)
Terrain and topography surveying
SCADA cyberattacks on infrastructure (Iran, Israel, Russia, China, US)
Exportable missiles (Iran, Russia, China, US)
Hypersonic glide vehicle (Iran, China, US)
MIRV research (Iran, China, US)
Underground missile bunkers (Iran, Russia, China, US)
Drones and cyberattacks (Iran, Turkey, Israel, Russia, China, US)
Directed energy weapons (Turkey)
Seizing enemy ships (Iran)
Guaranteed hit smart scope rifles (Israel, US)
Ninja blade missiles (US)

Firstly, never wish for enemy.
Secondly, never underestimate your enemy, specially if your enemy is armed with WMDs - nuclear weapons.
Thirdly, always try to use diplomatic channels to resolve issues with enemy as initial step.
Fourthly, prepare yourself for the worse out comes. Every possibility must be considered to plan out effective contingency plan.
Fifthly, upgrade your fighting capability for defensive and offensive options.
Lastly, wait and prepare for the enemy's initiative, use surprise as the defensive and offensive strategy.

Availability of weapons technologies and weapon systems are meaningless if these weapons systems or technologies are unsuitable for particular battle field, or cannot be defended or have strategic limitations.

Therefore, to optimize efficient and effective utilization of limited fund, only those weapons systems and technologies must be acquired, which will most likely be used in the hour of need.

In my opinion, Pakistan Government and Pakistan Armed forces are doing their best in all fronts related to external threat, considering their limited budget due to whatever reason.

 

[IsThisNameAvailable]

I wish some people had a working brain..

 

[fitpOsitive]

Sometimes I look at neighboring countries like Iran, Turkey, and China and wish we had real and competent enemies like them. Iran, Turkey, and China are leaders in military innovation because they have to be more competent and shrewd than their enemies which are among the best in the world. Iran takes on Israel with cyberattacks, Turkey targets Russian assets with drones, and China is battling it out with US for control of the world. I wish Pakistan had a more competent enemy so we could innovate a bit more. Unfortunately, India is a paper tiger and as they don't present an actual military threat to Pakistan besides their cancerous ideology, our military has become complacent and cannot innovate like Iran, Turkey, or China as Pakistan lacks a competent enemy like Israel, Russia, or US. Thus Pakistan is at least 20 years way behind likes of Iran, Turkey, and China on pretty much every kind of relevant military technology you can imagine.

Just a few of the technologies Pakistan has missed out on includes:

Cyberattacks (Iran, Israel, North Korea, China, Russia, US)
Drones (Iran, Israel, Turkey, China, US)
Cheap DIY suicide drones (Iran)
Satellites (Iran, Israel, Russia, India, China, US)
Precision cruise missiles (Iran, Israel, Russia, China, US)
Civilian space program (Iran, India, Russia, China, US)
Artificial military islands (Iran, China, US)
Dual use civill/military rockets (Iran, China, Russia, US)
EMP weapons (Iran, China, Russia, US)
Asymmetric decentralized navy (Iran)
Remote control explosive boats (Iran)
Small speedboats (Iran)
EFP armor piercing IED (Iran)
Sea skimming missiles (Iran, Russia, China, US)
Artificial intelligence (Iran, Israel, Russia, China, US)
Proxy warfare (Iran, Israel, Russia, US)
Ballistic missiles (Iran, Israel, India, North Korea, China, Russia, US)
Cryptocurrency (Iran, North Korea, China, Russia)
JF-17 export restrictions
Reverse engineering (Iran, China)
Loitering munitions (Iran, Russia, China, US)
Terrain and topography surveying
SCADA cyberattacks on infrastructure (Iran, Israel, Russia, China, US)
Exportable missiles (Iran, Russia, China, US)
Hypersonic glide vehicle (Iran, China, US)
MIRV research (Iran, China, US)
Underground missile bunkers (Iran, Russia, China, US)
Drones and cyberattacks (Iran, Turkey, Israel, Russia, China, US)
Directed energy weapons (Turkey)
Seizing enemy ships (Iran)
Guaranteed hit smart scope rifles (Israel, US)
Ninja blade missiles (US)

As far as competency at technology is concerned, India is far ahead of any country of this region. I am a technogy guy, I can testify it.
But there are two, infact three problems with them.
1) Concentration. They diverge from their goals too easily, and whenever they start a project end up in 50 projects.
2) Inventing wheel again. When they start doing something, they start from ABC. And hence every project become Tejas project.
3) Too primitive approach every time. They somehow think very very primatly. I mean as if they are still in 1750. Some how their minds are still stuck in 1750. So whenever they will start a thing, they will adopt an approach that is simplest, and hence very less productive.

We Pakistanis have also the same issues, but on opposite side, like too advance too early etc....

Both India and Pakistan have a problem of balance.