Operation Swift Retort by Alan Warnes

[jk007]

*Thanks for your response. You are entitled to your opinions.
*No Indian feel ashamed or anything similar for Feb-27. On the contrary, Indians feel ashamed for not retaliating after mumbai attacks and parliament attacks (Mumbai attacks are much greater provocation).
*Assuming SU-30 is also shot (I do not believe) and is hidden, then the shame is hiding a fallen aircraft. There is no shame is loosing an aircraft in shooting match. Shame is in hiding a fallen aircraft. Remember, PAF came at a time of choosing, and gave IAF a real surprise.
*Indians do not want war with Pakistan. Indians are perfectly okay with status quo. Indians want to concentrate on economy. Economy is priority.

*Again - you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Rafale+Meteor+Spectra]

Inability to hit back. Not even a single raid. Airforce grounds itself. Nuclear missiles armed. What does it mean

There was no need to hit back for anything.
Because there was no damage to air side by PAF and our only loss was a rusty MiG-21 (hardly of any value).

 

[abdulbarijan]

No Su-30 even got a scratch, Mr. PAC intern.
The Su-30s successfuly outmanuevered AMRAAMs which were anyways fired well outside their NEZs and have a low pK at such ranges anways.
Both the Mirage 2000s & Su-30 were pulled back by controllers as there was no point in keeping them in an engagement where they were outnumbered 5 or 6 times.

- Are you suggesting that while Indian airspace was being violated, IAF controllers were actively pulling back assets as there was no point defending the Indian airspace ? While we're at it .. would you like to enlighten us with the Indian perspective on as to why air forces are formulated in the first place?

- I don't know the Indian mentality, I guess its trying to invent anything positive you guys can get your hands on ... But it's actually really embarrassing to be truthful to the point where I as an enemy am embarrassed for you. Your literally telling your military guys ....

'yeah you dimwits suck so bad at your job ... that the only positive thing we can invent about your performance in battle was ... how good you were at running away.'

 

[Cuirassier]

Most modern MiG-21 variant in the world.

There was no need to hit back for anything.
Because there was no damage to air side by PAF and our only loss was a rusty MiG-21 (hardly of any value).

 

[TheTallGuy]

@Jaskier @jk007

some points you need to consider and leave everything which (Pakistani) claims as for you they are claims that have no foundation.

Wait till next time..

 

[maverick1977]

No Su-30 even got a scratch, Mr. PAC intern.
The Su-30s successfuly outmanuevered AMRAAMs which were anyways fired well outside their NEZs and have a low pK at such ranges anways.
Both the Mirage 2000s & Su-30 were pulled back by controllers as there was no point in keeping them in an engagement where they were outnumbered 5 or 6 times.

rofl

 

[Amaa'n]

PS Did any body see Alan analysis of the capability of Mig21 bison?... seems like it was very well kitted....

and issue of the drop tanks on Abilundon's Mig21...lol...how can u fire missiles with drop tanks still attached!...

what a noob

How many drop tanks was Bison carrying
and why can't missiles be fired with drop tanks attached?

 

[adelphi]

'yeah you dimwits suck so bad at your job ... that the only positive thing we can invent about your performance in battle was ... how good you were at running away.'

IAF can always salvage some pride by claiming "Beaten by the world Best"

 

[Falcon26]

(a) What is so great the PAF has done when they had numerical advantage?

Considering the PAF managed to create a numerical advantage in a small theater over an adversary much bigger in size and expecting for the attack already, isnt it great in itself or?

(b) IAF is going to quickly fill those gaps. Has PAF given away a lot while not getting much in return?

Here you are making two big assumptions

1. PAF has given everything! We might have many more surprises up our sleeves which only your next adventurism would unveil.

2. IAF would be filling in those gaps while the PAF would be sitting idle! 27th Feb already showed that pocket size and airforce size are irrelevant when push comes to the shove!

(c) Contrary to what many Pakistanis think - Indians (myself included) do not think that IAF / India is humiliated. Are we missing something?

You are free to think whatever you like, the world sees it otherwise. Even the most avid pakistan haters like Christine Fair invited by you couldnt be seduced enough to speak otherwise!

(d) We Indians are actually happy that our jets have crossed the border after many years [remember, they did not cross the border even after grave provocations like kargill war; parliament attack & mumbai attacks].

Yes, you crossed the border at the price of 2 jets, 1 helicopter, 2 dead pilots, 6 soldiers in Mil17 and a disgraced pilot. At this price, you are most welcome to cross the border again and we would be more than happy to give you the same protocol.

(e) What makes you think that our leadership is paralyzed?

"Had we got Rafales, the result would have been different"! - Narendra Modi

(f) Did that achievement change any thing strategically?

Yes. It reinforced the fact that following two facts

• Conventional parity still exists. Nukes are there too, but our forces can conventionally too give a befitting reply to a foe many times its size.
• We will always control the escalation ladder.

(g) You think an organization (IAF etc) that is built over 70 years will be paralyzed so easily??

Why would we want to paralyze an enemy who is so incompetent? We find it optimal that even after spending so much money on your forces, you couldn't avoid the humiliation on 27th! You are yourself an asset to us, why paralyze an asset?

Great post! Smack right in the face for his delusions.

 

[Ghessan]

Allow me to disabuse you of your illusions.



Thank you for conceding IAF was on its toes with AMRAAMS (otherwise Indians don't even admit that out of shame). None of the missiles were 'dodged' successfully. The blasted fragments of AMRAAM recovered instantly was no miracle. They were pulled out from the downed flanker. No secret there. Had anymore AMRAAMs fired, a)You would not find them in the valleys of kashmir in a day (read Spanish Typhoon AMRAAM firing incident, they still have not found it after 3 years b) You would have presented multiple missile fragments had they been found.

Unlike IAF, PAF has hit on 'military' targets successfully. The Ammo dump was pretty looking after the strike.




I hope IAF does for its own good. Besides, what makes you think we only had 'one' battle plan in our archives? It's a very stupid assumption to make. Anyway, a Bison, a flanker and a helo are very good enemy losses in return for one sortie.

The world does not share your confidence (read: over) unfortunately.



Yes, you are definitely missing something. That is shame, reasoning, and grace. Read it again.




Guess what? Feelings are mutual. Our pilots had a nice loiter time in Indian airspace in broad day light. I think it was quater to 10 AM.



Inability to hit back. Not even a single raid. Airforce grounds itself. Nuclear missiles armed. What does it mean?



Just one aircraft? Do you know what it means to lose a combat aircraft to enemy fire in peace time? A someone who breaks ROE is awarded Vir Chakra? And his incompetent ground controller is also given some sort of medal for what? Getting 2 more aircrafts downed?

Please get on the same page as your government. You are embarrassing yourself.



No one thinks that. We just 'bloodied' the nose of this so called command structure whcih was standing tall since 70 years.

their definition of grace and dignity is very well defined by him, what you said is what we keep for the honor.

 

[The Raven]

This is a classical example of how numerical and technical superiority can be undone by better training, tactics, and leadership. Time and again the PAF has demonstrated that no matter the size or equipment of the IAF, it can always outmanoeuvre, outsmart, and outgun its opponent at its choosing. But that doesn't mean we become complaisant, on the contrary. On paper, any opponent going up against the IAF would be very cautious and think twice, given its orbat and capabilities. The PAF is no different, it knows that if the IAF had better training, tactics, and leadership it could very easily be a different story. There's just no margin for error or siting on its laurels, it has to be constantly ahead of the game vs the IAF. And this is where our strong tradition of focusing on leadership and training shows dividends. Our institutions such as Combat Commanders School (CCS) and the PAF Airpower Centre of Excellence (ACE) are the key to why the PAF punches well above its weight for an airforce of its size and capabilities, and we should rightfully be proud of these institutions and the men and women who pass through their gates.

 

[PradoTLC]

How many drop tanks was Bison carrying
and why can't missiles be fired with drop tanks attached?

it can .. but would do it if u were in dogfight mode

 

[Amaa'n]

it can .. but would do it if u were in dogfight mode

thats another question you have asked brother.No i wont have EFTs on IF i was engaged in a dogfight....it leads to ask another question, Was Bison in a dogfight when it was shot out of the sky .....btw my earlier question on number of Tanks carried by Bison remained unanswered....

 

[diligence]

Socra or any other experts: Please help me understand.
On Feb-27,
(a) IAF is out-numbered by PAF 6:1 or something similar, and IAF could not do much against superior missiles other than dodging them (dodged successfully). What is so great the PAF has done when they had numerical advantage? PAF came at the time of their choosing. Credit to PAF that they chose a time, that IAF was not anticipating.

If many times larger IAF was out-numbered and outperformed by the PAF, what does that prove? If anything it proves the professional acumen, proficiency, and much higher fighting spirit of the PAF. Getting and maintaining the control of the aerospace over the Indian occupied state of J&K during the entire operation is not a small feat. More than that, the IAF planes were forced to stay away from the LOC for many weeks after 27th of Feb 2019. Modi government found the only possible response to the humiliation by threatening the use of SSM's in the night shows what PAF achieved earlier on that day. Yes, you are still asking what was so great. There should be a limit to self-disgracing and shamelessness that is really unknown to Indians.

(b) PAF has actually shown IAF's deficiencies in terms of missiles and radio communication. IAF is going to quickly fill those gaps. Has PAF given away a lot while not getting much in return?

PAF did what it did. If the IAF is going to quickly fill their gaps is not really known but PAF still has many surprises for Indians in their sleeves.

(c) Contrary to what many Pakistanis think - Indians (myself included) do not think that IAF / India is humiliated. Are we missing something?

There is no limit to self-disgracing and shamelessness for Indians. Quite evident.

(d) We Indians are actually happy that our jets have crossed the border after many years [remember, they did not cross the border even after grave provocations like kargill war; parliament attack & mumbai attacks].

Yes, cross the border and then get you *** kicked harshly and humiliated. Admittedly, Indians find the utter humiliation as a source of happiness.Exactly what the world expects from Indians.

(e) what makes you think that our leadership is paralyzed? what makes you think that PAF got IAF to surrender?

The way IAF was beaten by PAF on that day, the way they downed their own helli and then we all finding Modi and the IAF chief wishing for a different result have they had Rafales. What does it prove then?

(f) Forget all this, what did PAF or Pak achieve with all this? Just shot down one aircraft? and that too in Pak territory? and that from a Pilot who broke the ROE and crossed the border? Did that achievement change any thing strategically?

You can ask this question to Russian, French, and Israeli officials who supplied MKI and M2K planes to IAF, applied heavy up-gradation on these planes as well as Bisons. If Indians feel no humiliation from a sever beating at the hands of the PAF, those other countries find it utterly humiliatiing, disgraceful, and a cause of bad name for their technologies. Why are you asking us the obvious?

(g) what makes you think that "their (Indian) entire command and control structure" was a casualty? You think an organization (IAF etc) that is built over 70 years will be paralyzed so easily??
Please give valid points from your side.

First tell me the meanings of casualty? I am pretty sure you are incapable of comprehending the real meanings of this word.

 

[Rafale+Meteor+Spectra]

Are you suggesting that while Indian airspace was being violated, IAF controllers were actively pulling back assets as there was no point defending the Indian airspace ? While we're at it .. would you like to enlighten us with the Indian perspective on as to why air forces are formulated in the first place?

Not at all.
Any prudent and professional air force controllers will pull back units which are at severe numerical disadvantage (6:1) and order reinforcements to reach area and IAF did just that (IAF scrambled 16 Su-30 and 8 MiG-29 as reinforcements but by the time they reached PAF OCA package had already left the sector).

More than that, the IAF planes were forced to stay away from the LOC for many weeks after 27th of Feb 2019.

Never happened.
I have family members living near LoC and MiG-21 and Su-30 were daily carrying out CAPs over Rajouri till the end of elections.
Even on the international border, MiG-21s and Su-30s carried out BARCAPS from Pathankot.