Operation Swift Retort by Alan Warnes

[syed_yusuf]

Its a claim not a confirmation.
What is though confirmed through indian sources that su 30 ran away as they couldnt engage PAF fighters coz they were "outgunned" by PAF..


Better court italy and get typhoon than gripen.
Gripen wont add much..

But just for meteor(which is very expensive) makes no sense to pay so much.

PL 15(if available) and Aim 120D are better alternatives (aim120d might become available after 2023 once aim 260 comes).

If PL 15 isnt available /released than PAF should seriously think of teaming with third party to build its own missle as this is a startegic weapon.
Both turkey and south africa can help if funded

If pl15 equivalent or better than metor missile?

 

[ziaulislam]

If pl15 equivalent or better than metor missile?

From rumours its equivalent..
Pl xx is better but different (very large probably less manuverable)

USAF states its better than aim 120D which is 160km(rumoured) but i think they are over blowing the PL15 or using equivalent names for Pl15& pl xx

 

[PradoTLC]

 

[PradoTLC]

PS Did any body see Alan analysis of the capability of Mig21 bison?... seems like it was very well kitted....

and issue of the drop tanks on Abilundon's Mig21...lol...how can u fire missiles with drop tanks still attached!...

what a noob

 

[dbc]

and issue of the drop tanks on Abilundon's Mig21...lol...how can u fire missiles with drop tanks still attached!...

what a noob

Sure you can...The MIG 21 is G limited while carrying external stores and drop tanks, it can still launch missiles.

 

[Khan_21]

Did your jealous abu jaan tell you all this?
Military is run by generals and if generals are corrupt then the entire system is going to be a failure.
As for Feb-26/27
Its not just a small incident as you think of. PAF air superiority has SHUT all these indiots mouth for good, and i am enjoying every single moment of it!

Well Military is run by Generals then name me one decent general? Zia ? Ayub ? Musharraf ? Kiyani? Should I start counting their black deeds and the damage they did to Pakistan? The only way military is going to be improved is if there is accountibility. So far every jarnail has looted this country , plundered wealth , killed people , introduced the concept of extremism and went without any consequences.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/338916-multibillion-corruption-probe-nab-summons-musharraf-sehba

Musharraf is involved in 1000 billion worth of property. Do you know how much 1000 billion is? As usual he will go scotch free. And is just one jarnail in this country. I cant even fathom what others have done

We better serve our energies on saving our malnurished and poor people and worry about the health sector.

 

[SQ8]

The success of the operation doesn’t lie in the number of aircraft shot down. It’s understood by those who have read advanced warfare concepts and the ideas of strategists like John Boyd.

The casualties of India were not Abhinandan’s mig or some Su-30, it was their entire command and control structure.
In one fell swoop, one of the most powerful military forces and claimant to superpower status had its leadership completely paralyzed, confused and left unable to make any form of intelligent decisions. The significance of India desperately trying to use SSM’s shows that the PAF practically got the IAF to surrender and it’s top leadership, the so called modern day Chanakyas so lost in terms of what to do that the only options they had left were the ones they couldn’t use in the first place because of their implications.

It is an operation being studied by military forces all over the world because its a lesson in applying the schwerpunkt of an enemy against it. That blow got inside Indian leadership’s thought response speed and left it a cripple - that is what Swift retort did and it had an impact ten times even 50 aircraft shot down could have had. @Windjammer @JamD @Hodor

 

[TsAr]

PS Did any body see Alan analysis of the capability of Mig21 bison?... seems like it was very well kitted....

and issue of the drop tanks on Abilundon's Mig21...lol...how can u fire missiles with drop tanks still attached!...

what a noob

Drop tanks have no connections with dropping or launching missiles or bomb. Drop tanks hinder manoeuvribility during dog fight.

 

[Falcon26]

The success of the operation doesn’t lie in the number of aircraft shot down. It’s understood by those who have read advanced warfare concepts and the ideas of strategists like John Boyd.

The casualties of India were not Abhinandan’s mig or some Su-30, it was their entire command and control structure.
In one fell swoop, one of the most powerful military forces and claimant to superpower status had its leadership completely paralyzed, confused and left unable to make any form of intelligent decisions. The significance of India desperately trying to use SSM’s shows that the PAF practically got the IAF to surrender and it’s top leadership, the so called modern day Chanakyas so lost in terms of what to do that the only options they had left were the ones they couldn’t use in the first place because of their implications.

It is an operation being studied by military forces all over the world because its a lesson in applying the schwerpunkt of an enemy against it. That blow got inside Indian leadership’s thought response speed and left it a cripple - that is what Swift retort did and it had an impact ten times even 50 aircraft shot down could have had. @Windjammer @JamD @Hodor

This! I have been arguing the same forever!

 

[PradoTLC]

Drop tanks have no connections with dropping or launching missiles or bomb. Drop tanks hinder manoeuvribility during dog fight.

and ejection also has no coloration between having fuel tanks attached?..

the point is if a missile (ie dogfight mode) was to be launched drop tanks are dropped!...

Sure you can...The MIG 21 is G limited while carrying external stores and drop tanks, it can still launch missiles.

not at that height... and certainly not a long range missile

 

[loanranger]

The significance of India desperately trying to use SSM’s shows that the PAF practically got the IAF to surrender

India's deployment of SSM's proves it to be a mindless dinosaur. Big no doubt but the brain the size of a walnut. If India had launched even one of them we had no idea whether it was nuclear or conventional. NASRs and Shaheens would have gone as a reply. Makes one think what were they thinking when the thought about using SSM's. Irresponsible Indians.

 

[jk007]

The success of the operation doesn’t lie in the number of aircraft shot down. It’s understood by those who have read advanced warfare concepts and the ideas of strategists like John Boyd.

The casualties of India were not Abhinandan’s mig or some Su-30, it was their entire command and control structure.
In one fell swoop, one of the most powerful military forces and claimant to superpower status had its leadership completely paralyzed, confused and left unable to make any form of intelligent decisions. The significance of India desperately trying to use SSM’s shows that the PAF practically got the IAF to surrender and it’s top leadership, the so called modern day Chanakyas so lost in terms of what to do that the only options they had left were the ones they couldn’t use in the first place because of their implications.

It is an operation being studied by military forces all over the world because its a lesson in applying the schwerpunkt of an enemy against it. That blow got inside Indian leadership’s thought response speed and left it a cripple - that is what Swift retort did and it had an impact ten times even 50 aircraft shot down could have had. @Windjammer @JamD @Hodor

Socra or any other experts: Please help me understand.
On Feb-27,
(a) IAF is out-numbered by PAF 6:1 or something similar, and IAF could not do much against superior missiles other than dodging them (dodged successfully). What is so great the PAF has done when they had numerical advantage? PAF came at the time of their choosing. Credit to PAF that they chose a time, that IAF was not anticipating.
(b) PAF has actually shown IAF's deficiencies in terms of missiles and radio communication. IAF is going to quickly fill those gaps. Has PAF given away a lot while not getting much in return?
(c) Contrary to what many Pakistanis think - Indians (myself included) do not think that IAF / India is humiliated. Are we missing something?
(d) We Indians are actually happy that our jets have crossed the border after many years [remember, they did not cross the border even after grave provocations like kargill war; parliament attack & mumbai attacks].
(e) what makes you think that our leadership is paralyzed? what makes you think that PAF got IAF to surrender?
(f) Forget all this, what did PAF or Pak achieve with all this? Just shot down one aircraft? and that too in Pak territory? and that from a Pilot who broke the ROE and crossed the border? Did that achievement change any thing strategically?
(g) what makes you think that "their (Indian) entire command and control structure" was a casualty? You think an organization (IAF etc) that is built over 70 years will be paralyzed so easily??

Please give valid points from your side.

 

[airomerix]

Socra or any other experts: Please help me understand.
On Feb-27,
(a) IAF is out-numbered by PAF 6:1 or something similar, and IAF could not do much against superior missiles other than dodging them (dodged successfully). What is so great the PAF has done when they had numerical advantage? PAF came at the time of their choosing. Credit to PAF that they chose a time, that IAF was not anticipating.
(b) PAF has actually shown IAF's deficiencies in terms of missiles and radio communication. IAF is going to quickly fill those gaps. Has PAF given away a lot while not getting much in return?
(c) Contrary to what many Pakistanis think - Indians (myself included) do not think that IAF / India is humiliated. Are we missing something?
(d) We Indians are actually happy that our jets have crossed the border after many years [remember, they did not cross the border even after grave provocations like kargill war; parliament attack & mumbai attacks].
(e) what makes you think that our leadership is paralyzed? what makes you think that PAF got IAF to surrender?
(f) Forget all this, what did PAF or Pak achieve with all this? Just shot down one aircraft? and that too in Pak territory? and that from a Pilot who broke the ROE and crossed the border? Did that achievement change any thing strategically?
(g) what makes you think that "their (Indian) entire command and control structure" was a casualty? You think an organization (IAF etc) that is built over 70 years will be paralyzed so easily??

Please give valid points from your side.

Allow me to disabuse you of your illusions.

(a) IAF is out-numbered by PAF 6:1 or something similar, and IAF could not do much against superior missiles other than dodging them (dodged successfully). What is so great the PAF has done when they had numerical advantage? PAF came at the time of their choosing. Credit to PAF that they chose a time, that IAF was not anticipating.

Thank you for conceding IAF was on its toes with AMRAAMS (otherwise Indians don't even admit that out of shame). None of the missiles were 'dodged' successfully. The blasted fragments of AMRAAM recovered instantly was no miracle. They were pulled out from the downed flanker. No secret there. Had anymore AMRAAMs fired, a)You would not find them in the valleys of kashmir in a day (read Spanish Typhoon AMRAAM firing incident, they still have not found it after 3 years b) You would have presented multiple missile fragments had they been found.

Unlike IAF, PAF has hit on 'military' targets successfully. The Ammo dump was pretty looking after the strike.

(b) PAF has actually shown IAF's deficiencies in terms of missiles and radio communication. IAF is going to quickly fill those gaps. Has PAF given away a lot while not getting much in return?

I hope IAF does for its own good. Besides, what makes you think we only had 'one' battle plan in our archives? It's a very stupid assumption to make. Anyway, a Bison, a flanker and a helo are very good enemy losses in return for one sortie.

The world does not share your confidence (read: over) unfortunately.

(c) Contrary to what many Pakistanis think - Indians (myself included) do not think that IAF / India is humiliated. Are we missing something?

Yes, you are definitely missing something. That is shame, reasoning, and grace. Read it again.

(d) We Indians are actually happy that our jets have crossed the border after many years [remember, they did not cross the border even after grave provocations like kargill war; parliament attack & mumbai attacks].

Guess what? Feelings are mutual. Our pilots had a nice loiter time in Indian airspace in broad day light. I think it was quater to 10 AM.

(e) what makes you think that our leadership is paralyzed? what makes you think that PAF got IAF to surrender?

Inability to hit back. Not even a single raid. Airforce grounds itself. Nuclear missiles armed. What does it mean?

(f) Forget all this, what did PAF or Pak achieve with all this? Just shot down one aircraft? and that too in Pak territory? and that from a Pilot who broke the ROE and crossed the border? Did that achievement change any thing strategically?

Just one aircraft? Do you know what it means to lose a combat aircraft to enemy fire in peace time? A someone who breaks ROE is awarded Vir Chakra? And his incompetent ground controller is also given some sort of medal for what? Getting 2 more aircrafts downed?

Please get on the same page as your government. You are embarrassing yourself.

(g) what makes you think that "their (Indian) entire command and control structure" was a casualty? You think an organization (IAF etc) that is built over 70 years will be paralyzed so easily??

No one thinks that. We just 'bloodied' the nose of this so called command structure whcih was standing tall since 70 years.

 

[Shah_Deu]

(a) What is so great the PAF has done when they had numerical advantage?

Considering the PAF managed to create a numerical advantage at all in a small theater over an adversary much bigger in size and expecting an attack already, isnt it great in itself or?

(b) IAF is going to quickly fill those gaps. Has PAF given away a lot while not getting much in return?

Here you are making two big assumptions

1. PAF has given everything away! We might have many more surprises up our sleeves which only your next adventurism would unveil.

2. IAF would be filling in those gaps while the PAF would be sitting idle! 27th Feb already showed that pocket size and airforce size are irrelevant when the push comes to the shove!

(c) Contrary to what many Pakistanis think - Indians (myself included) do not think that IAF / India is humiliated. Are we missing something?

You are free to think whatever you like, the world sees it otherwise. Even the most avid pakistan haters like Christine Fair couldnt be seduced enough to speak otherwise!

(d) We Indians are actually happy that our jets have crossed the border after many years [remember, they did not cross the border even after grave provocations like kargill war; parliament attack & mumbai attacks].

Yes, you crossed the border at the price of 2 downed jets, 1 downed helicopter, 2 dead pilots, 6 dead soldiers in Mil17 and a disgraced pilot. At this price, you are most welcome to cross the border again and we would be more than happy to give you the same protocol.

(e) What makes you think that our leadership is paralyzed?

"Had we got the Rafales, the result would have been totally different"! - Narendra Modi

(f) Did that achievement change any thing strategically?

Yes. It reinforced the following two facts further

• Conventional parity still exists. Nukes are there as well, but our forces can conventionally too give a befitting reply to a foe many times its size.
• We will always control the escalation ladder.

(g) You think an organization (IAF etc) that is built over 70 years will be paralyzed so easily??

Why would we want to paralyze an enemy who is so incompetent? We find it optimal that even after spending so much money on your forces, you couldn't avoid the humiliation on 27th! You yourself are an asset to us, why paralyze an asset?

 

[Rafale+Meteor+Spectra]

Thank you for conceding IAF was on its toes with AMRAAMS (otherwise Indians don't even admit that out of shame). None of the missiles were 'dodged' successfully. The blasted fragments of AMRAAM recovered instantly was no miracle. They were pulled out from the downed flanker. No secret there. Had anymore AMRAAMs fired, a)You would not find them in the valleys of kashmir in a day (read Spanish Typhoon AMRAAM firing incident, they still have not found it after 3 years b) You would have presented multiple missile fragments had they been found.

Unlike IAF, PAF has hit on 'military' targets successfully. The Ammo dump was pretty looking after the strike.

No Su-30 even got a scratch, Mr. PAC intern.
The Su-30s successfuly outmanuevered AMRAAMs which were anyways fired well outside their NEZs and have a low pK at such ranges anways.
Both the Mirage 2000s & Su-30 were pulled back by controllers as there was no point in keeping them in an engagement where they were outnumbered 5 or 6 times.