What's new

Operation Rah-e-Nijat (South Waziristan)

Regarding the current situation, i have this much to say.

In the darkest of times there are somethings which can have a positive effect as well...
Pakistan Army is becoming much more tough and battle ready than it was at any given time in its history...
Officers who have been to battlegrounds and have performed with valor and diligence are being promoted...the skill set is being enhanced...
These terrorists are making us stronger...our Army and Air force are getting crucial battle experience...

In the long run this experience and this hardening of our formations will hold true against any enemy who attacks us, internal or external.
Experience alone is one of the most important aspects of war...

So in this i think we should not be afraid that we are compromising on eastern border, worst comes to worse, if we are attacked on eastern border, we shall use a lot of weapons we cannot use against TTP...we are not that insecure on the eastern border...especially once we weigh the threat posed by TTP...
The current Army has now many commanders with active battlefield experience, it has taken time but they have become more experienced and past failures have taught them what not to do...

When i interact with my friends and family serving in the forces, there is an air of confidence and grit about them, they are battle veterans now.

May Allah give us victory over these terrorists and may this fight for Pakistan and its people renew the spirit of this nation

All Green

What you say holds true for the non-conventional warfare. Definitely the issue serves to further strengthen PA capabilities in terms of CI operations which differ vastly from the conventional symmetric warfare expected.

However if you think this is battle experience for professional soldiers, a reality check is due. Its not.
 
.
However if you think this is battle experience for professional soldiers, a reality check is due. Its not.

And shooting dummy targets or at the range is?

It is not substitute for experience in a conventional war, but it has invaluable lessons that cannot be replicated at a training range either, and not all of them have to do with 'conventional military tactics'.
 
.
Todays news GEO camera caught something new...USAF f18 in Waziristan operation...Good to see US are helping PAF for operation clean up...
 
.
Because the Taleban are a lot more desperate this time around. They are specifically targeting populated areas to maximize damage and public outroar, but still close enough to security posts so that they can claim they are only opposed to the security forces. This wave of attack was expected from the Taleban, but what I didn't expect was for them to come out first. I thought they would wait until the formal declaration of the operation before attacking, hence strengthening their case for "self-defence". .

Desperation as per you sir. The issue was always on the table, wherein they can not face the PA in open symmetric war, it was always on the anvil that the fight would turn urban and be waged in a densely populated area. They have no scruples for attacking public property and location with extensive collateral damage. At the end of the day, they are under the illusion that they are doing Allah the almighty's wish and anyone who opposes them (read sensible person) is a non-believer and needs to be done away with.

You are talking about a mindset that has been conditioned by reading Quran but with grossly mutilated interpretations being pounded into their heads day in and out.

And there are enough nutters to go down that path, whether you admit as such or not.

Also, last time around, the IDPs were screened before they came in. But I agree, the threat remains, and I am sure the military has thought of that possibility as well. The thing is, we are not trying to wipe out Taleban from the entire country, because it's impossible to do that. We are trying to destroy their HQ, command and control networks, so that they may become incapacitated for the most part. The clean-up of Taleban-ism will take years, maybe even decades, so if a few foot soldiers of the Taleban escape, they can't do much damage without any leadership.

There IS NO C3I acting in the classical sense which can be neutralised effectively. The only way is to slowly and steadily eradicate every volunteer/fighter/talib as now the effective modes of communications are verbal and in person and no more over electronic media.

As for leadership issues, everyone who survives a few months in face of mounting pressure from security forces, gets the ability to lead as he has the experience and necessary know how.

So as a result leadership is a redundant issue right now. The cadres are being trained to operate in isolated cells with eventuality of being cut off. And they are individually prepared for the same.
 
Last edited:
.
The subsequent displacement in Swat was handled quite well, and the military operation so far has been very successful - a threat from the militants in Swat remains, but it is far lower than it was before the operation.

But my point is that attacks on cities were occurring long before the Swat Operation was initiated and even when peace deals were in place.

In Swat, the threat to Swat and the rest of Pakistan has been largely neutralized because of the Swat operation - the alternative (talks, carrot and stick, tribal jirgas) was tried, and failed, both in Swat and FATA.

Here as well, the SW militants continued to attack both Pakistani forces and civilian targets despite the presence of 'peace deals' in the past. Not only that, they have also been instrumental in exporting resources and expertise to militants in Swat (before they were crushed) as well as Punjab and Karachi, again despite the presence of peace deals.

So the alternative to the military operation is to sit back and just absorb the spread of the Taliban and repeated attacks.

Hakimullah Mehsud's own words were along the lines of, "we will not stop until Pakistan is a true Islamic State, and then we will focus on India". I see no room for compromise here, and I see no alternative to militarily eliminating/reducing the threat they pose - do you, and if you do, what is it?

Am as always questioning the need for deployment of large scale formations with overwhelming firepower ........ as opposed to the keeping the campaign limited in weapon platforms being deployed

never said that there is alternative to military action
infact i recall you advocated the initial peace deal ..... i was critical of that and the subsequent deployment of air and armor-artillery assests in the campaign on own citizens
 
.
And shooting dummy targets or at the range is?

Is that the best inference you could draw from my quoted reply with respect to the said post? I am amazed at that .... great "Battle Experience" PAF is getting .... shooting up caverns and hill sides!!!! And PA, they engage an enemy who melts into hills/townships upon protracted confrontation .... good one!


It is not substitute for experience in a conventional war, but it has invaluable lessons that cannot be replicated at a training range either, and not all of them have to do with 'conventional military tactics'.

precisely ... please refer to my first line .... 'holds true in non-conventional warfare' ........ just a pointless post from your side AM ...... for the heck of opposing!!!:woot:
 
. .
Todays news GEO camera caught something new...USAF f18 in Waziristan operation...Good to see US are helping PAF for operation clean up...

If USAF will support PA ,it means it is a US war?

May Allah give us hadayat ,

Ameen
 
.
However if you think this is battle experience for professional soldiers, a reality check is due. Its not.

Then what else would you call it ?? What is battle experience by the way, the ability of soldiers & officers to work under fire & make tactical decisions in pressure. Experience of conducting warfare under hostile fire & in hostile area.

Yes, its different then conventional warfare, but the troops after taking part in these operations would be coming out totally different. Dear, when someone is firing at you or when artillery shells are exploding near you, the situation is totally different. The ability to lead by the officers & his troops under fire makes them better soldiers then those who just do training on firing ranges.

I am saying this due to my little experience, recently the 2 days back suicide explosion around 150 meters away from my home made me go through the experience of how it feels under such circumstances. Another experience came when was standing on the terrace of my home & came the sound of rocket zooming pass right above my head & landing about half kilometer away, literally i could not move on hearing the sound of the rocket zooming overhead, i was in total shock.

Many times when troops come under ambush or hear the first sound of fire, they go into a shock not able to move which many times result in casualties.

Would like to narrate a story here, when my dad was commanding a FC formation in tribal area, he was on sick leave, when some problem arose with some local miscreants, FC troops were dispatched, as my dad was in hospital, the 2IC was going to the trouble spot in a convoy & they got ambushed, within seconds the soldiers sitting in the vehicle carrying the 2IC were out of their vehicle & taking positions as they were experienced in coming under fire & doing battles while the 2IC was still in the vehicle & was in shock, couldn't move, then the troops had to get him.

So, crux is, the officers & troops will come experienced & a new breed of officers experienced in some kind of warfare will arose from it.
 
Last edited:
.
The army on Saturday launched a three-pronged attack against Taliban stronghold in South Waziristan amid reports of roadside bombings and stiff resistance that left at least two soldiers dead and eight wounded.

Thousands of troops, backed by jet fighters and helicopter gunships, started advancing on the Mehsud tribe’s heartland at Makin from three points at first light.

Maj-Gen Athar Abbas, the chief of the Inter-Services Public Relations, told journalists: ‘The army has launched an operation after receiving orders from the government. The operation was launched early in the morning. Both air and ground troops are taking part.’

The operation, code-named Rah-i-Nijat (path to deliverance), seems to be almost a replay of the one last year against Baitullah Mehsud.

The action was called off all of a sudden, perplexing some observers as they felt the forces were close to achieving the objective.

This had drawn criticism from independent observers and contributed to fresh allegations that the militants were the military’s surrogates and it would never take decisive action against them.

Baitullah Mehsud was killed in a drone attack on Aug 5. The operation, believed to be the most difficult of all against militants in a treacherous terrain in the tribal regions, followed a spate of terrorist attacks, including the one at the General Headquarters, that have left over 150 people dead.
 
.
Then what else would you call it ?? What is battle experience by the way, the ability of soldiers & officers to work under fire & make tactical decisions in pressure. Experience of conducting warfare under hostile fire & in hostile area.

Yes, its different then conventional warfare, but the troops after taking part in these operations would be coming out totally different. Dear, when someone is firing at you or when artillery shells are exploding near you, the situation is totally different. The ability to lead by the officers & his troops under fire makes them better soldiers then those who just do training on firing ranges.

I am saying this due to my little experience, recently the 2 days back suicide explosion around 150 meters away from my home made me go through the experience of how it feels under such circumstances. Another experience came when was standing on the terrace of my home & came the sound of rocket zooming pass right above my head & landing about half kilometer away, literally i could not move on hearing the sound of the rocket zooming overhead, i was in total shock.

Many times when troops come under ambush or hear the first sound of fire, they go into a shock not able to move which many times result in casualties.

Would like to narrate a story here, when my dad was commanding a FC formation in tribal area, he was on sick leave, when some problem arose with some local miscreants, FC troops were dispatched, as my dad was in hospital, the 2IC was going to the trouble spot in a convoy & they got ambushed, within seconds the soldiers sitting in the vehicle carrying the 2IC were out of their vehicle & taking positions while the 2IC was still in the vehicle & was in shock, couldn't move, then the troops had to get him.

So, crux is, the officers & troops will come experienced & a new breed of officers experienced in some kind of warfare will arose from it.

TK - its a bit difficult for some (across the border) to digest the fact that the army has had success in their recent efforts in Swat/Malakand and hopefully in SWA also !

the issue with Hellfire is that he seems to be a intelligent guy but his MO is to bait people all the time!
 
.
Is that the best inference you could draw from my quoted reply with respect to the said post? I am amazed at that .... great "Battle Experience" PAF is getting .... shooting up caverns and hill sides!!!! And PA, they engage an enemy who melts into hills/townships upon protracted confrontation .... good one!

If you have missed the videos of PAF doing precision strikes, would advice to watch them. Then may be you realize what experience PAF is getting. Plus, the newly inducted drones are also being used giving a lot of experience to PAF in using them & making tactics which would be used in other areas too. And this is a long war. PAF & PA have now better coordination doing air strikes, which as said can be used on other fronts too.

If you haven't read the latest updates, the PA is now going after the enemies who have melted in mountain sides, do read about the Swat operations in detail.

precisely ... please refer to my first line .... 'holds true in non-conventional warfare' ........ just a pointless post from your side AM ...... for the heck of opposing!!!:woot:

On the contrary, I would say its your posts which are useless with no substance as you have no understanding about the operations being conducted & how armies can get experience through different kind of warfare.
 
.
Dear Taimikhan:

That was excellent and highly informative post. Very well researched!!.

My key concern is here:
“”If you remember in 2001 crises, the whole army was nearly mobilized in 2 weeks time, even the far flung formations of Quetta & Peshawar reached the borders””.
In a future crisis Pak Army may not have the flexibility to move formations from Swat, Bajaur, and Waziristan to the Eastern border.

Also remember that FC elements, Bajaur Scouts, Chitral Scouts, and Tochi Scouts were deployed in the Northern areas during the 1971 war. Such a backup may not be available in a future conflict.

Situation of Army Aviation is cause for serious concern. The aircrew issues can probably be resolved through aggressive induction / training in 2-3 years. Fleet utilization profile of Mi-17’s, Bell-412, AH-1’s in this phoney war is such that fatigue cycles are accumulating like hell. The AH-1 fleet is by now almost useless for sustained anti armor operations against India. We have been just too meek and undemanding to our customer (USA). It would make sense to demand at least 100 AH-1 and possible AH-64.

“”Come on yaar itnaa bhi stupid & underestimate naa karo PA ko””
I don’t think PA is stupid. It is just a bit too JAZBATI in carrying out its US assigned duty. As for foresight and planning PA has not done terribly well. Please read this article by Air Cdr (R) Kaiser Tufail:
Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force
http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2009/01/kargil-conflict-and-pakistan-air-force.html

friend - lesson learned - lets move on! - the situation is not static, the co-ordination is growing!
 
. .
Desperation as per you sir. The issue was always on the table, wherein they can not face the PA in open symmetric war, it was always on the anvil that the fight would turn urban and be waged in a densely populated area. They have no scruples for attacking public property and location with extensive collateral damage. At the end of the day, they are under the illusion that they are doing Allah the almighty's wish and anyone who opposes them (read sensible person) is a non-believer and needs to be done away with.

You are talking about a mindset that has been conditioned by reading Quran but with grossly mutilated interpretations being pounded into their heads day in and out.

And there are enough nutters to go down that path, whether you admit as such or not.
Why would I deny that? But what you've described are a portion of the foot soldiers. Other foot soldiers are simply thugs for hire. The commanders are not doing anything for the sake of Allah, and they know that. But that is a philosophical debate, unrelated to anything I said in my post, so I will not comment on that further.

There IS NO C3I acting in the classical sense which can be neutralised effectively. The only way is to slowly and steadily eradicate every volunteer/fighter/talib as now the effective modes of communications are verbal and in person and no more over electronic media.

As for leadership issues, everyone who survives a few months in face of mounting pressure from security forces, gets the ability to lead as he has the experience and necessary know how.

So as a result leadership is a redundant issue right now. The cadres are being trained to operate in isolated cells with eventuality of being cut off. And they are individually prepared for the same.
You are correct in your view that there is no conventional C3I, but that is where you stop being accurate. The command and control network can very much be destroyed simply by eliminating the main controlled areas, and by eliminating/capturing the leadership. The strategy, tactics and targets are all dictated through this network. Also, no, there are only a select number of people within the Taleban capable of leading it. Eliminate them, and what you have are a band of thugs and criminals, operating dispersed, not very difficult to control, contain or even convert.

Is that the best inference you could draw from my quoted reply with respect to the said post? I am amazed at that .... great "Battle Experience" PAF is getting .... shooting up caverns and hill sides!!!! And PA, they engage an enemy who melts into hills/townships upon protracted confrontation .... good one!
Well, the Israeli Defence Air Force is considered the most battle-hardened Air Force in the world, which makes it one of the most sought after for international military exercises (I'm not making this up, it's right out of the mouth of a Canadian Forces officer). But, when you think about it, all they have done since the last Arab-Israeli War is drop precision munition on targets, without facing any resistance at all. Even during the Arab-Israeli war, the Arabic aerial efforts were pathetic. So what makes them so special? There must be something they are gaining from their campaigns which the world values, right? And the answer: operational preparedness, battle testing and verification of tactics.

There is a great deal, in a very conventional sense, that the PAF and PA will be gaining from these operations, from target designation to precision bombing to battle planning to close air support to area clearing to area holding to inter-service coordination and so on. In unconventional warfare, well, we were always in a different league entirely, so it's not surprising that we're the ones rewriting the Asymmetric Warfare doctrine.

A NASA engineer was asked how he had developed a fix for a design issue with the Space Shuttle before the problem was even recognized by the designers, and he replied simply;
There is no substitute for experience
 
Last edited:
.

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom