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Operation Blue Star -Sikh Holocaust 1984

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If you start making your own definitions as they suit you you can classify anything as such, but one criteria is attack on unarmed civilians...were Bhindranwala & co: unarmed...did they not fire back and kill soldiers as well, that was an armed group of people with a hostile intent and if the temple complex was desecrated by anyone it was them, the army operation was not intended against the temple itself but heavy casualties made it necessary.

They are not definitions, they are very simple questions. Just think about it for a second. Attack against the Bhindranwale is not the issue here. Who drove him to take those actions, why attack on the holiest day on the Sikh calender when Punjab is flooded with spies and moles, GOI didn't know that? You can even go further to 1947 when Nehru betrayed Sikhs. It was combination of number of things that collectivly were simering under the surface for years and 1978 incident just brought that to surface.

As far as motives go what wrong motives do you think the GoI had, Indira Gandhi knew it was a political suicide to step inside the Temple yet she did it to prevent a division of punjab...whereas Bhindranwale was propogating his ideology and seccesionist agenda from the temple, he could have left when he knew the operation was coming.

And who provoked or forced his hand or gave him a reason, whatever you want to call it? Please read and do diligence on the background before 1984 incident. It could of been easily prevented.
 
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Bhindranwala could have hid anywhere else and his group could have fought against the IA. By hiding inside the golden temple and indulging in violence he showed that he had no respect for Guru Granth Sahib. If anyone desecreted the golden temple it was him.

Would people have been happy if Taliban hid inside the Golden temple and fought against IA? Just the fact that Bhindranwala called himself a Sikh shouldnt make one a holy warrior and the other a terrorist.
 
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Bhindranwala could have hid anywhere else and his group could have fought against the IA. By hiding inside the golden temple and indulging in violence he showed that he had no respect for Guru Granth Sahib. If anyone desecreted the golden temple it was him.

Look I never said it was a good move on his part but it was the only place where they thought where IA would never attack. And remeber he was a religious leader not a political leader, so had all the authority to go to there. He was head of Damdami Taksal, which is one of five temporal seats. He was simple preacher who turned extreme or militent, again whatever you want to call him, by the things that were taking place in Punjab against Sikhs.

Would people have been happy if Taliban hid inside the Golden temple and fought against IA? Just the fact that Bhindranwala called himself a Sikh shouldnt make one a holy warrior and the other a terrorist.

First of no one is restricted to go the Golden temple, even taliban can visit there. Only if they are visiting not attacking. If taliban would of been there, Sikhs would of freed them selves, Sikhs wouldn't need IA to rescue there worship places. We freed it from Abdai and Mugols, believe me Sikhs would of dealt with Taliban too.
 
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Only issue that is bugging my mind, was that after the operation was over was our soldiers disrespecting the shrine. I don't have any issues of IA trying to free Golden temple from these terrorists. If they showed disrespect then that is an issue. I had read the link Gabbar gave me, only problem that i had trouble with, to identify was the Alcohol and cigerates part, even though i don't want to believe it and feels like an unimaginable incident. Coz going for an operation i dont know how people would carry alcohol that too towards a sacred shrine???? May be this was deeds of some select few.. may be regiments from madras who didn't know the importance or the sacredness of the shrine.
 
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They are not definitions, they are very simple questions. Just think about it for a second. Attack against the Bhindranwale is not the issue here. Who drove him to take those actions, why attack on the holiest day on the Sikh calender when Punjab is flooded with spies and moles, GOI didn't know that? You can even go further to 1947 when Nehru betrayed Sikhs. It was combination of number of things that collectivly were simering under the surface for years and 1978 incident just brought that to surface.



And who provoked or forced his hand or gave him a reason, whatever you want to call it? Please read and do diligence on the background before 1984 incident. It could of been easily prevented.


I think we are arguing on different lines here...I only support the intent of the action against the Bhindranwale gang in the Golden Temple.

The issue about sikhs being betrayed after partition was resolved by sikhs themselves, they had become part of the mainstream as they grew prosperous, and also by the fact that they had stood fimly with India after bearing the worst of the partition riots as well as forgetting the differences in 1965.
The 1978 incident did have a political color to it and Indira Gandhi can be held responsible for that, through supporting Bhindranwale initially. The sikhs were right in holding the grudges for issues like punjabi language and punjabi suba which should have been done earlier.
 
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If you start making your own definitions as they suit you you can classify anything as such
everything has an explanation...the maoists can't wait for the govt's policies to bear fruit...they want "the people" to seize power of their lands and the resources that they hold....the SIMI people want India to be an Islamic state with sharia so that no one is discriminated and there is peace for all and Allah's word reigns supreme...the khalistani want the economically endowed Punjab to be the world's only Sikh state...Raj thackrey wants reservation for mumbaikars in the rail jobs of only Maharashtra...the kar sewaks wanted the Babri masjid to go down as it was built on the most pious hindu grounds...where the glorious ram mandir once stood...how could have narendra Modi acted against his hindu brothers 'after' they have been aroused with so much vigor...in "their own country"...
I can go on...these people/orgs/cults..have mass appeal...they have their reasons to be there in the first place.In a nation of >1 billion...massive differences would exist...democracy seems to catalyze these differences...we can't be ruthless in breaking the backs of these 'separatists'...not unless provoked to...but in a multi-party-multi-caste-multi-cultural-multi-refional-multi-socioeconomic system that we have in place...some one would definitely raise these buried issues from the past...massive inquiries would be set-up...but in reality only those who survive seeing these horrendous incidents closely would remember....
if you don't want to step-into their shoes it's alright...but if you'd...they are not really wrong believing whadeva they believe...the world might be flat for them..but it is only democratic to think differently...I in no way am referring to operation blue-star...yes it became necessary...but as all the non-congressiya 'senators' agree...."it could have been avoided!"
Indira Gandhi played a gamble in an area which was already tense...to gain political motives...but this realization that my non-sikh parents gave me this explanation that it wasn't the sikhs fault is gold enough for me to see this country through the secular haze Gandhi/nehru/ambedkar and co. wanted the bharat rashtra to be painted into...as for the others...
thy brought the rage of the empire unto thee...settle dispute through dialogue...people would listen and something would be done if you manage to live for 80 odd years...but people would like you...
take up arms and try to hasten things up...you are the 'antakwaadi' the state is out to hunt.
but one criteria is attack on unarmed civilians...were Bhindranwala & co: unarmed...did they not fire back and kill soldiers as well, that was an armed group of people with a hostile intent and if the temple complex was desecrated by anyone it was them, the army operation was not intended against the temple itself but heavy casualties made it necessary.
Bhindrawale was armed...and they were armed to the teeth...but they did not have tanks...nor could have matched the numbers...bhindrawale died an untimely death...and so did Mrs. Gandhi....end of story.
As far as motives go what wrong motives do you think the GoI had, Indira Gandhi knew it was a political suicide to step inside the Temple yet she did it to prevent a division of punjab...whereas Bhindranwale was propogating his ideology and seccesionist agenda from the temple, he could have left when he knew the operation was coming.
let me list the wrong motives....
1.cong trying to butt-in the punjab political scenario by announcing bhindrawale as the spiritual guru...
2.bhindrawale has other plans...Indira gandhi is waiting and watching..
3.revival ofthe khalistani movement....the pakistani connection...
4.absolute disregard for the dialogue and holding of talks...resulted in the window period closing....and hence happened the operation blue-star.
 
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So do you think government couldn't cut of water, electricity, food and communication and negotiated? Did they have to attack on the holiest day on thei Sikh calander when thousands of devotees were there hence causing thousands of innocent deaths? Sir when Babri masjid was destroyed, where was the goverment and where was thier "national" integority?

A military operation is never planned on the basis of these considerations. I have a fairly good idea of the way a military mind works. Once the order is in place, the ONLY consideration is victory at minimum cost to self. Ethics, politics, religion, history, emotions, etc. are not factors a military mind labors under. They have enough on their plate just staying alive, rather than getting into intellectual socio-politico-cultural debates.

Bhindrawale did not develop those fortifications within the temple overnight. And it was not done without the knowledge of other non-militant Sikhs visiting or living within the temple complex. The choice of religious sanctuary was made by Bhindrawale. Saying he had no other option does not really matter in the context of things. He was a hunted man and a declared enemy of the state, and for such men there can be no refuge on sovereign soil, irrespective of their religion.

I repeat - Bluestar was not something any Indian need be ashamed or apologetic about - ever. Delhi 1984 on the other hand was.

Cheers, Doc
 
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The sikhs were right in holding the grudges for issues like punjabi language and punjabi suba which should have been done earlier.
I am not exactly an admirer of Nehru, but it appears to me that Nehru was right, at least in principle, on the issue of Punjabi language and Suba.

From, Amritsar: Mrs Gandhi’s Last Battle, by Mark Tully and Satish Jacob. (I am typing from a paper back, so expect a few typos)

“In 1953 Pandit Nehru set up the States Reorganisation Commission in order to consider demands from many parts of India that state boundaries should be redrawn on a linguistic basis. Some linguistic groups received satisfaction, but not the Akalis. The commission rejected the Sikh claim for a Punjabi-speaking state, on the grounds that Punjabi was not sufficiently distinct from Hindi, and that furthermore the movement lacked ‘the general support of the people inhabiting the area’.

Punjabi Hindus claimed that the demand was communal. The three main languages of the undivided Punjab had been Urdu, Hindi and various forms of Punjabi. Of the three, Punjabi was by far the most widely spoken by all communities, including Hindus. But the Akalis argued that the state’s language be Punjabi written in the Gurmukhi script. This was the script devised by the second Guru for the Sikh scriptures. It was not widely taught or used outside Sikh religious institutions. Hindus were therefore able to maintain that the demand for the Gurmukhi script was a religious demand. Because of the Punjabi Suba Movement and the link between language and communalism, in the 1961 census many Punjabi speaking Hindus declared Hindi as their mother tongue. Bhindranwale used to refer to them scornfully as ‘people prepared to deny their mothers’. The Prime Minister, Nehru, remained resolutely opposed to the creation to a Punjabi Suba or state until the end of his life. He too was convinced that the Akalis’ demand was communal. He told Parliament: ‘There is no doubt that I [Punjabi Suba] has grown up not as a linguistic issue but as communal issue’. Whether the demand was communal or not, there is no doubt that the Akalis’ political ambition was to have a state they would always rule. But they had forgotten that by no means all Sikhs are Akalis, and that they could not hope to rule a Sikh majority state without the support of some Hindus.” (pg 39 – 40)​

The idea was to mark the state boundaries on the basis of language and not religion. Akalis’ demand to have a state on the basis of the most widely spoken language in that region – Punjabi – was no doubt a valid demand. But their demand, that the official script should be the one, which was exclusively devised to write Sikh scriptures, and which was not common outside the Sikh community, did have religious flavor in it. In that sense, I don’t think Nehru can be blamed for interpreting the demands as communal.

In any case, that didn’t prevent the creation of Punjab and constitutional recognition of Gurmukhi.

“Nehru remained adamantly opposed to the Punjabi Suba until his death in 1964 but in 1966 his daughter Indira Gandhi agreed to the formation of a Punjabi-speaking state. Fateh Singh helped her by stating unequivocally that his demand was for a linguistic not a Sikh state. Mrs Gandhi was undoubtedly influenced by the gallant role of Sikh troops and mainly Sikh rural population of the border areas of Punjab in the war with Pakistan in 1965……

Shrewd politician that she was, Mrs Gandhi also undoubtedly saw the Akalis as potential allies in the fight she was having with the congress party bosses her father had left behind……

Under the Punjab settlement the Hindi speaking plains became the new state of Haryana with its border running up to Delhi. The foothills of the Himalayas became the new state of Himachal Pradesh, and the rest remained Punjab. Punjab had a narrow Sikh majority of 56%, but language not religion was the basis for the division.” (pg 42 – 43)​

So eventually, the Sikhs did get their state. It is because of this, I do not agree with the argument that they were ‘right in holding the grudges for issues like punjabi language and punjabi suba’. Mind you, language movement had effected, perhaps even more, the southern and eastern parts of India. Although, it had resulted into riots, it still didn’t spiral into what Punjab ultimately spiraled into.
 
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So eventually, the Sikhs did get their state. It is because of this, I do not agree with the argument that they were ‘right in holding the grudges for issues like punjabi language and punjabi suba’. Mind you, language movement had effected, perhaps even more, the southern and eastern parts of India. Although, it had resulted into riots, it still didn’t spiral into what Punjab ultimately spiraled into.

The sikhs got their state alright, but the point you missed was that they got it after a lot of time and agitation to get something they were promised as far back as 1946 by Nehru himself. Whether language should be the basis of states is a separate issue, but the fact that they were promised that before partition, and because it was a big reason for sikhs to support part of punjab into India, they should have been granted their state earlier.
What punjab descended into (terrorism), was not because of the language movement or the state demand, they got it in 1966, it was an insurgency that grew out of the unfortunate events of 1984 and thereafter, and keeping in mind that hindus were equally responsible for inflicting suffering on sikhs. So the argument about grudges still stands.
 
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everything has an explanation...the maoists can't wait for the govt's policies to bear fruit...they want "the people" to seize power of their lands and the resources that they hold....the SIMI people want India to be an Islamic state with sharia so that no one is discriminated and there is peace for all and Allah's word reigns supreme...the khalistani want the economically endowed Punjab to be the world's only Sikh state...Raj thackrey wants reservation for mumbaikars in the rail jobs of only Maharashtra...the kar sewaks wanted the Babri masjid to go down as it was built on the most pious hindu grounds...where the glorious ram mandir once stood...how could have narendra Modi acted against his hindu brothers 'after' they have been aroused with so much vigor...in "their own country"...
I can go on...these people/orgs/cults..have mass appeal...they have their reasons to be there in the first place.In a nation of >1 billion...massive differences would exist...democracy seems to catalyze these differences...we can't be ruthless in breaking the backs of these 'separatists'...not unless provoked to...but in a multi-party-multi-caste-multi-cultural-multi-refional-multi-socioeconomic system that we have in place...some one would definitely raise these buried issues from the past...massive inquiries would be set-up...but in reality only those who survive seeing these horrendous incidents closely would remember....
if you don't want to step-into their shoes it's alright...but if you'd...they are not really wrong believing whadeva they believe...the world might be flat for them..but it is only democratic to think differently...I in no way am referring to operation blue-star...yes it became necessary...but as all the non-congressiya 'senators' agree...."it could have been avoided!"
Indira Gandhi played a gamble in an area which was already tense...to gain political motives...but this realization that my non-sikh parents gave me this explanation that it wasn't the sikhs fault is gold enough for me to see this country through the secular haze Gandhi/nehru/ambedkar and co. wanted the bharat rashtra to be painted into...as for the others...
thy brought the rage of the empire unto thee...settle dispute through dialogue...people would listen and something would be done if you manage to live for 80 odd years...but people would like you...
take up arms and try to hasten things up...you are the 'antakwaadi' the state is out to hunt..

You can agree to any ideology if you are taught enough of it...and you have a right to speak and protest...for me the decision to act against bhindranwale was justified because he took up arms against the state...the democratic process of talks and negotiations may be long drawn...but it is the right way...picking up arms is the tipping point for the state to act and act it did. Nation comes first.
Bhindrawale was armed...and they were armed to the teeth...but they did not have tanks...nor could have matched the numbers...bhindrawale died an untimely death...and so did Mrs. Gandhi....end of story.

They blew up a couple of APC's before the tanks were sent in, Brar was still reluctant to send in the tanks, but had to take the step as losses mounted.

let me list the wrong motives....
1.cong trying to butt-in the punjab political scenario by announcing bhindrawale as the spiritual guru...
2.bhindrawale has other plans...Indira gandhi is waiting and watching..
3.revival ofthe khalistani movement....the pakistani connection...
4.absolute disregard for the dialogue and holding of talks...resulted in the window period closing....and hence happened the operation blue-star.


These were the mistakes of Gandhi before bluestar...what happened in June 1984 was the retaliation of the state against terrorism.
 
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see...it is the duty of the state to openly favor talks at ANY point.
we can not afford to be as ruthless as the perpetrators of violence if they ask for it...as far as dealing with our internal issues is concerned.

we do accept the Kashmiri militants when they lay down arms even after years of killing...we give them govt. jobs...it is to win hearts...that is what the duty of the state has to be...to prevent even one single innocent for dying.
judges are told that one innocent man going to the gallows is worse than a thousand guilt-ridden culprits running free....the same goes for the state.
we took our decision long back...when our great leaders wanted us to be democratic and secular...operation blue-star was not supposed to kill even a single innocent....KPS Gill...I appreciate what he did...but it is the duty of the state to try him if there arises even a single case against him..no man is above the state...not bhindrawala not Mrs. Gandhi.
 
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I think we had enough discussions about Operation Blue Star and its tragic aftermath . Now its time to close the matter here.

I dont like seeing indians bickering among themselves on a pakistani defence forum.
 
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I dont like seeing indians bickering among themselves on a pakistani defence forum.

nobody is bickering..valid points meet valid counter-points...otherwise this thread is futile.
 
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I think we had enough discussions about Operation Blue Star and its tragic aftermath . Now its time to close the matter here.

I dont like seeing indians bickering among themselves on a pakistani defence forum.

Please refer to post #117.
 
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nobody is bickering..valid points meet valid counter-points...otherwise this thread is futile.

With over 13 pages and 193 comments this thread has outlived its natural life span.

And when the same arguments goes round and round it look more like bickering at first sight which i dont like specifically on this site.
 
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