Operation Blue Star -Sikh Holocaust 1984

[duhastmish]

hmmmm - what are you people fighting for ? relgion ? i bet most of you buggers are not - ortodox religous. i mean not inclined toward faollowing for age old meaningless (in current age ) custom of religion. so why argue over it.

Religion change : and the one who accept this change will move forward. you know whats wrong with mullah ISLAM????

The mullah islam doesnt change according to time. they are stuck in age old cutom and ethics of religion. they are not understandign the symbolic meaning but are stuck in iconic meaning.
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now same is happenign with hinduism or sikh extrimist.

guys religion change - and sikh and buddist are two most accommodating religion.

to me sikh : are born to give or devote themselve to this society. in india sikh are like elder brother to rest of country.

protective pioneering nationalist and demanding respect.( in all feild social , politcial , business or defence)

as for sikh jokes : dude they are friggin funny and so are pathan jokes or gujju jokes. but its fun till the intention is not to hurt sentiment by pointing at religion or their custom.
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i for one dont belive there is racism against sikh, not here atleast and it did get me in rage when that S.O.B varun abused sikh as religion. and i can assure that also did rage 99.999999% hindu or muslim or buddist or jain or jews or parasi or christians etc.....

 

[vsdoc]

Many of my friends in school (I grew up in Jamshedpur) were sardars. In college too my best friend and roomie was a cut-surd, as well as other sardar batchmates and friends. Sardar jokes? So what? Have you seen how Parsi bawajis are portrayed in all our movies? Do you see us getting all uptight and taking offense?!!!!!! Yes, Golden Temple was not a particularly bright spot in our history - but cmon guys, is it not time to move on as a community and a country? On one side of the coin the pepetrators of the Delhi riots still run free, but on the other so do those who plotted the kanishka bombing. Indira Gandhi was gunned down, Gen. Vaidya in Pune. And there was someone here mentioning that the army units went into the temple with their boots on. Buddy you are misinformed. I remember clearly those days and how ladies across the country had cried the day after the storming when it was learned that the first 2 units of the NSG had crossed the main courtyard aginst well-entrenched HMG fire - BAREFEET - and most of those young soldiers in the initial attack were mowed down - coz for fear of not harming the main sanctum sanctorum, they could not retaliate with mortar/grenade/rockets which would have been the easy thing to do. There is no end to the vicious cycle of revenge. I dont know how many of you here are old enough to remember that decade of Akali terrorism - I was - and it was really bad. Punjab as a economic power and rice/wheat bowl of India was gutted, and everyday on TV and in the newspapers it was thebreaking news, the ONLY news. And it was like that for nearly a generation. Nobody liked how it ended, but nobody was sad when it did.

I love sardars like my brothers, like I do my other Indian Hindu, Muslim, or Christian friends. I gre up in a home where we have foto frames of dieties of all religions on our prayer shelves along with our own. We celebrate all festivals with equal enthu, be it Holi/Diwali or gobbling delicious bityani and the milk sewai on Id, or going to midnight mass on Christmas (admittedly to see the gorgeous mini-skirted anglo girls!). We buy gold on Dhanteras for our ladies. I totally freak out on the kababs, kadhi gosht, and firni at the Mominpura food stalls after sundown during Ramzan. I go with my surdi friends for langars to the gurudwara and when in college we once had a long strike (it was covered famously on all National news channels as strikes in defense institutions become National news) all girl and guy cadets were rescued from the railway station platforms by city sardars and given shelter in the Hollywood gurudwara - for 3 days. I still fondly remember beloing rotis as part of the public service in the huge kitchen there.

The point in all this random rambling here, especially for our Pakistani brothers, is that we Indians love being Indian and that means we love our diversity and our colorful customs and clothes and food and we are flexible and accomodative to each others beliefs and faiths and we love living together as brothers. Like all humans, we are not perfect, and we do screw up once in a while. We are not proud of it nor do any of us condone it - either openly or in private. We recognise secularity as what binds us together and makes us a growing force on the world stage, and we will always come together to defend it when forces - either external or internal - come to destroy this fabric that binds us together and is the very essence of being an Indian.

Jai Hind!

Cheers, Doc

 

[A1Kaid]

Here comes anther expert in hinduism from across the border.

A1Kaid,

There are no millions of God in hindusm, but millions "Devatas" who are Hindu deities worshipped as symbols or representations of one supreme being( "param Bramha") .

These Hindu deities are characters of hindu "Puranas"(roughly translates as mythologies in english) where God born as those deities in human or animal form for the benifit of mankind and the the creation in different ages.

Most of the million Devata live swarg(heaven) are believed to carry different power of the supreme being and all work according to the wishes of that supreme being .

So when hindus worship them ,they dont pray form of a stone or the live animal,but as the one of the sysmbols of the supreme Brhama they represent as described in our Puranas/holy scriptures.


From Lord Buddha to jain Mahavir , Guru Nanak of Sikhism,Santha Kabir are those great saints who objected to unnecessary rituals and caste division that permeated in to hindu dharma over thousands of yrs and tried reform it in the way they realised the presense of the supreme/param bharma and started new simple paths/cults to reach that supreme being bereft of most hindu rituals . And now their followers are known as buddhist, jains or sikhs.

"There are no millions of God in hindusm, but millions "Devatas" who are Hindu deities worshipped as symbols or representations of one supreme being( "param Bramha")-Khajur

You contradicted yourself, a deity and God are in essence the same thing. I could have easily said Hinduism is a pagan or polytheist religion with millions of deities (and not God). And as you said "worshiped as symbols or representations of one supreme being", in essence idolatry and statue worshiping thanks for your admittance.

"These Hindu deities are characters of hindu "Puranas"(roughly translates as mythologies in english) where God born as those deities in human or animal form for the benifit of mankind and the the creation in different ages.

Most of the million Devata live swarg(heaven) are believed to carry different power of the supreme being and all work according to the wishes of that supreme being ."-Khajaur

The ancients believed in polytheism as well but now much of the World has come to understanding if there is a God it is only one supreme God.

So when hindus worship them ,they dont pray form of a stone or the live animal,but as the one of the sysmbols of the supreme Brhama they represent as described in our Puranas/holy scriptures."-Khajuar

Correct, but considering in Hinduism anyone can worship anything he/she chooses or believes the scriptures Puranas become less meaningful as one is guided merely on faith and self-opinion rather than divine guidance.


All the rest you spout is crap not worth responding to.

Now let's get back to topic, this is not about the origins of Hinduism. But what is clear is Sikhism and Hinduism are respectable their own faiths, even if you suggest Sikhism is derived from Hinduism.


Back on topic now.

 

[A1Kaid]

I thought of replying to that, but i did not want to go that route. To anyone who really wants to find out, they can, to those beating the drums of their religious supremacy (oxymoron), you can't teach people who claim to know everything can you? They lack the basic quality required for knowledge, humility!

" you can't teach people who claim to know everything can you? They lack the basic quality required for knowledge, humility!"-Fateh71


You are in no position or hold any title that gives you the right to judge whether someone has humility or not. Understand...

Besides I have demonstrated knowledge here, past and present, therefore your allegation and opinion is baseless.

 

[A1Kaid]

"Sikh Genocide 1984 Eye Witness"

 

[Khajur]

You contradicted yourself, a deity and God are in essence the same thing. I could have easily said Hinduism is a pagan or polytheist religion with millions of deities (and not God). And as you said "worshiped as symbols or representations of one supreme being", in essence idolatry and statue worshiping thanks for your admittance.





The ancients believed in polytheism as well but now much of the World has come to understanding if there is a God it is only one supreme God.



Correct, but considering in Hinduism anyone can worship anything he/she chooses or believes the scriptures Puranas become less meaningful as one is guided merely on faith and self-opinion rather than divine guidance.


All the rest you spout is crap not worth responding to.

Now let's get back to topic, this is not about the origins of Hinduism. But what is clear is Sikhism and Hinduism are respectable their own faiths, even if you suggest Sikhism is derived from Hinduism.


Back on topic now.

Before going to the topic...let me say u still didnt get it,did u??

As i said before, its millions of deities are different shape and names /Avatars based on "puranas "(hindu holy scriptures) of single supreme being or param Brahma.

Now presense of million deities in hindu religion dont doesnt translates to million gods ,but as million Avatars of one single god.A very simple logic to grasp for anyone but the rigid minds.


" Correct, but considering in Hinduism anyone can worship anything he/she chooses or believes the scriptures Puranas become less meaningful as one is guided merely on faith and self-opinion rather than divine guidance. "

Its purely matter of faith.
U have been told that that Quran is the divine guidance that prophet recieved from almighty god.So u follow it as ur source of divine guidance like every other muslim.

Simillarly hindus worship their different deities as many representations of almighty god based on the rituals and holy scripture of hindu religion.

 

[notsuperstitious]

" you can't teach people who claim to know everything can you? They lack the basic quality required for knowledge, humility!"-Fateh71


You are in no position or hold any title that gives you the right to judge whether someone has humility or not. Understand...

Besides I have demonstrated knowledge here, past and present, therefore your allegation and opinion is baseless.

Ha ha, the arrogance of knowledge always does this to religious supremacists, they amass knowledge but never understand, as understanding required humility. Just look at your above reply to Khanjur, you just failed to understand one 'belief' and judging his 'belief' through the prism of your 'belief' and feeling all high and mighty. understand... you know as little or as much as anyone else when it comes to GOD, unless you've seen him or her or it.. understand... until then its a shooting competition of the blind... understand... and not just memorise.

 

[A1Kaid]

Terrorists aren't born terrorists. What drove them to pickup arms. Did you know what Gandi said when asked by Tara Singh after 1947 that "what if Sikhs didn't get what they were promised?", he said "Sikhs will have the right to pick the arms". Thats the exact quote from him. Please provide some link where negotiations were takng place, I want to know how did miss this.

And whats so surprising about it??

Our army never hesitate to kill kashmiri militants,bodo and Ulfa militant of Assam and tribal naxalites/moists when they question writ of the nation, mercilessly in the self interest of this country.They are all indian citizens too.

Those militants were never innocent and even sikhs soldiers who attacked as part of IA knew it verywell.



Yes, it is toughness. Kill your own citizens, instead of listening to there problems. As Khuswant Singh said to IG that "LAMHOH NE KHATA KEE THEE PER SADION THE SAZA PAYEE".



Beleive they also wouldn't be pround what thier own government, people and army did to thier own citizens

You make several interesting points, but the question remains, Is Operation Blue Star in 1984 justified?

Meaning looking back now was it the right thing to do?


Also do you personally think the "Sikh militants" were terrorist or not?

"Did you know what Gandi said when asked by Tara Singh after 1947 that "what if Sikhs didn't get what they were promised?", he said "Sikhs will have the right to pick the arms".-Gabbar

So does this mean the the Sikh claim is valid...? Both historically and legally?

 

[bandit]

You make several interesting points, but the question remains, Is Operation Blue Star in 1984 justified?

Meaning looking back now was it the right thing to do?


Also do you personally think the "Sikh militants" were terrorist or not?



So does this mean the the Sikh claim is valid...? Both historically and legally?

Bluestar was justified in the sense that a nations government acted in the interest of the nation against forces that were threatening to disintegrate it. That civilians were killed or a religious place was desecrated was not the intent of the operation, it was a necessary step that had to be taken. The operation was not against a community as you try to make it out, the proof of it being that neither the sikhs as a community took up arms nither did the government suppress them. As of now just the scars remain but in the whole the purpose was achieved and as of whole the community remains loyal to their country.
You can debate endlessly that the sikhs were/are repressed but your theories carry no weight as you are an outsider commenting on half baked facts. There are larger tangible proofs to negate your viewpoint like Punjab being the richest/Sikh PM/Large representation in the Forces/No terrorism.
And the Title of the thread is pretty dumb anyways, killing of terrorists is not a holocaust...its something like what happened with the jews.

 

[niaz]

I was in London as Operation Blue Star unfolded. I can understand Delhi’s stand that there can’t be a state within a state. In some ways it resembles Lal Masjid operation some quarter a century later in Islamabad.

As an outsider, IMO the problem lies not with the Operation Blue Star itself but its aftermath. Indra Gandhi was killed by a Sikh guard and any where from 10,000 to 50,000 (probably nearer 20,000) innocent Sikhs were looted and killed by an organized violence against the Sikhs as revenge, with law enforcing agencies calmly standing by doing nothing. I came across many inquiry reports, in one such report some 70 police officers were named as being directly involved, but not a single has been punished for it to my knowledge.

The process was repeated in Gujarat anti Muslim riots with the blessing of the butcher Narender Modi, who could ironically be the next Indian Prime Minister.

Having lived abroad for most of the last 40 years, I have very little prejudices/ religious bigotry left. However, each time I think of the anti Sikh riots in Delhi and anti Muslim riots in Gujarat, my blood boils. How can a country, despite being proud of her secular heritage, prove to be so bigoted when it comes to the crunch? But then what do you expect from the people who voted in the party; which murdered the only second Maha Atma or mega soul ever born in India; to run the country (BJP).

I abhor Taliban in Pakistan but I also equally detest BJP which has murderers such as Narender Modi as their future leader. It is a pity that neither secular Congress nor bigoted BJP appear to be ashamed for patronizing such barbaric and dastardly acts by their activists.

 

[A1Kaid]

Bluestar was justified in the sense that a nations government acted in the interest of the nation against forces that were threatening to disintegrate it. That civilians were killed or a religious place was desecrated was not the intent of the operation, it was a necessary step that had to be taken. The operation was not against a community as you try to make it out, the proof of it being that neither the sikhs as a community took up arms nither did the government suppress them. As of now just the scars remain but in the whole the purpose was achieved and as of whole the community remains loyal to their country.
You can debate endlessly that the sikhs were/are repressed but your theories carry no weight as you are an outsider commenting on half baked facts. There are larger tangible proofs to negate your viewpoint like Punjab being the richest/Sikh PM/Large representation in the Forces/No terrorism.
And the Title of the thread is pretty dumb anyways, killing of terrorists is not a holocaust...its something like what happened with the jews.

"You can debate endlessly that the sikhs were/are repressed but your theories carry no weight as you are an outsider commenting on half baked facts. There are larger tangible proofs to negate your viewpoint like Punjab being the richest/Sikh PM/Large representation in the Forces/No terrorism."-bandit

Your emotions need to be kept under control or you won't last very long here, and you keep mentioning "your" and "your viewpoint", specifically point out what I said was commenting on "half-baked facts". Before you make further posts it is you who ought to do more reading because the BS allegations your pressing do not apply and are invalid.

 

[Nemesis]

"You can debate endlessly that the sikhs were/are repressed but your theories carry no weight as you are an outsider commenting on half baked facts. There are larger tangible proofs to negate your viewpoint like Punjab being the richest/Sikh PM/Large representation in the Forces/No terrorism."-bandit

Your emotions need to be kept under control or you won't last very long here, and you keep mentioning "your" and "your viewpoint", specifically point out what I said was commenting on "half-baked facts". Before you make further posts it is you who ought to do more reading because the BS allegations your pressing do not apply and are invalid.

What a cop out. Instead of commenting on his valid points, you go of on a tangent about emotions and such rubbish. Let moderators worry about his tone.

He is right, as an outsider who has no knowledge of facts about India, except of what his hatred has taught him, you have no basis to make any assertion, making your points invalid.

 

[Imran Khan]

SAD incidents happen every were in world better we forget them and don't debate again and again time will never be back.learn from mistakes and don't separate hate every were its good for humanity.

 

[Gabbar]

Bluestar was justified in the sense that a nations government acted in the interest of the nation against forces that were threatening to disintegrate it.

And who was responsible for creating that situation at the first place?

That civilians were killed or a religious place was desecrated was not the intent of the operation, it was a necessary step that had to be taken.

Would of you said the same thing if it was your own family? Be honest with this one!!

The operation was not against a community as you try to make it out, the proof of it being that neither the sikhs as a community took up arms nither did the government suppress them.

10-15 years of insugency after 1984 was not a proof? As far as government is concerned, did you know what happened in Delhi? You are from Delhi, you should know better than anybody else.

As of now just the scars remain but in the whole the purpose was achieved and as of whole the community remains loyal to their country.
You can debate endlessly that the sikhs were/are repressed but your theories carry no weight as you are an outsider commenting on half baked facts. There are larger tangible proofs to negate your viewpoint like Punjab being the richest/Sikh PM/Large representation in the Forces/No terrorism.
And the Title of the thread is pretty dumb anyways, killing of terrorists is not a holocaust...its something like what happened with the jews.

Depends who you ask, you are entitled to your opinion but dont forget the thousands civilians dies along with alleged militents that were killed.

 

[bandit]

And who was responsible for creating that situation at the first place?



Would of you said the same thing if it was your own family? Be honest with this one!!



10-15 years of insugency after 1984 was not a proof? As far as government is concerned, did you know what happened in Delhi? You are from Delhi, you should know better than anybody else.



Depends who you ask, you are entitled to your opinion but dont forget the thousands civilians dies along with alleged militents that were killed.

See your anger is justified.
What I was replying to was a question about the validity of the operation. If some goons sitting in a religious place loaded with launchers and MG's are challenging the writ of the state it is necessary they be thrown out with force.
The part about innocents being killed is very right....even if they are not my family I would still be sad for them for it was no mistake of theirs that they lost their lives.
The Insurgency was a temporary phase that died down once the few who were leading it were eliminated. It did not have the mass support because if it were, it would not have been possible to quell it even by brute force.
Lastly I do not forget the innocents who died, i felt let down when Tytler & co. were let off, they should've been made an example of, we do not want to give an impression of immunity to such heinous acts.