Open Debate l Ex-UAE Mirage 2000-9s for PAF, aye or nay ?

[Slayer786]

We are assuming that UAE will sell it at a throw away price. But for Pakistan is that price still affordable? India is going to start protesting first to UAE govt than to France. If Pakistan goes ahead. Although we have excellent relations with UAE, France might block the sale.
Other than these problems, I think it is a good idea if we are able to get them. They are a beauty. Seen them flying at Dubai Airshow. Amazing birds.

 

[Munir]

Why are people repeating the mantra that we should buy more second hand total unknown plane in small numbers? If you have money to throw then buy at least something that will be valuable.

Ooo... We know Mirage 3/5 so we should go for Mirage 2000... Sounds like the same level as we should redesign K8 wings to make it a ground attack plane...

 

[TOPGUN]

If the price is right I say yes ...

 

[sancho]

Since the FC-20 MMRCA's future is now bleak due to the economic mismanagment of the PPP govt

That alone shows why this whole thread doesn't really makes sense!
It's not the unit cost of J10B that is the problem (and I don't even need to point out that the UAE is asking for high costs per unit too), but the availability of funds to add a new fighter in first place. If the economical mismanagement is the problem, there won't be funds to procure M2Ks either, as simple as it is.

You also ignore the fact that J10Bs could be procured by PAF right now, while the M2K-9s can only be procured when a replacement was selected by the UAE and the delivery of new aircrafts has started. That again makes your point on M2K-9s being a stop gap for PAF moot as well, since the fighters could be added to PAF only in some years (most likely close to the end of the decade). Not to mention that a stop gap usually implies ease of induction into the force, which makes the M2K-9 clearly a bad choice, compared to additional F16s or even better JF 17s. PAF could simply use the available logistics, tactics and training experience, instead of creating everything new again, for a new type of fighter.

Even if you look at it from a technical point of view and the fact that J10B might have an AESA radar or IRST, or that the JF 17 could have the same within the next 2-3 years too, it shows why an M2K-9 would have lower potential for PAF, at the same, or even higher costs.


If PAF wants to save money for a 5th gen fighter in the long term, while adding numbers and capabilities in a fast rate, there is only one choince - JF17!

- cheap per unit cost
- cheaper to operate
- fast to procure
- easy to induct
- technical upgrades already under development
- customisation according to PAFs requirements possible

 

[airmarshal]

The deal is favorable no doubt. But the question is do we have money to buy these jets? whats the latest on UAE intending to sell them?

 

[Munir]

If the price is right I say yes ...

The price was not even right for India, what makes you sure they will sell them for less to Pakistan?

That alone shows why this whole thread doesn't really makes sense!
It's not the unit cost of J10B that is the problem (and I don't even need to point out that the UAE is asking for high costs per unit too), but the availability of funds to add a new fighter in first place. If the economical mismanagement is the problem, there won't be funds to procure M2Ks either, as simple as it is.

You also ignore the fact that J10Bs could be procured by PAF right now, while the M2K-9s can only be procured when a replacement was selected by the UAE and the delivery of new aircrafts has started. That again makes your point on M2K-9s being a stop gap for PAF moot as well, since the fighters could be added to PAF only in some years (most likely close to the end of the decade). Not to mention that a stop gap usually implies ease of induction into the force, which makes the M2K-9 clearly a bad choice, compared to additional F16s or even better JF 17s. PAF could simply use the available logistics, tactics and training experience, instead of creating everything new again, for a new type of fighter.

Even if you look at it from a technical point of view and the fact that J10B might have an AESA radar or IRST, or that the JF 17 could have the same within the next 2-3 years too, it shows why an M2K-9 would have lower potential for PAF, at the same, or even higher costs.


If PAF wants to save money for a 5th gen fighter in the long term, while adding numbers and capabilities in a fast rate, there is only one choince - JF17!

- cheap per unit cost
- cheaper to operate
- fast to procure
- easy to induct
- technical upgrades already under development
- customisation according to PAFs requirements possible

One should never buy French planes... The moment you start ordering spares or ask for upgrade they will squeeeeez you out.

 

[Luftwaffe]

@Donatello

We need a replacement for the F-7PG's, they too now are 16 years old.

The point is to have a 'cheap stopgap'. If the UAE is willing to sell them at a throw away price, we should buy them.

Spares issue can be solved by upgrading the existing Mirage RF. Our pilots too have flown these Mirages, as well as our own Mirage experiance, should suffice. PAF has proven to absorb different technologies and these Dash-9s are not totally unfamiliar to us.

The trick is the price and the road to a new jet from China, be it the FC-20 or J-31, is wide open into the future.

Again these dash-9s will be used as a stop gap to allow for a 5th generation jet.

@Aeronaut, U.A.E AF have 600 black shaheen ALCMs, US refused to let them integrate on F-16s if U.A.E sells even 40 Mirages what would they do with those black shaheen ALCMs, that are not available to Pakistan under any circumstances nor could it be returned to france/uk as buy back unless U.A.E AF settles for Rafale that those ALCMs are of use. You see U.A.E AF has to keep that in mind as well although personally i think they were in for a ride foolishly to buy 600 black shaheen that are useless without mirages/rafale/typhoons US refused to many times to let them be integrated and provided them with SLAM for F-16s plus 25 more F-16 DFalcoms ordered. Then there is a potential for number of mirages buy back by french if rafale deal goes through and if boeing fails.

Yeah would be a good deal if U.A.E can sell them with france permission atleast 2 squads/40 with numbers of black shaheen ALCM @$20-22m since the last deal for mirage -9 was 1998 so they are pretty much 15 years old. By 2020 it would be pointless to go for these mirages.

I am still curious about how mirage III/V are being maintained those spares would have been depleted in past 17 years so I don't know what PAF is doing.

Last even if they agree to @ 20-22m per mirage who would pay $800m when we are short of funds for JF-17 program.

 

[sancho]

One should never buy French planes... The moment you start ordering spares or ask for upgrade they will squeeeeez you out.

That's simple business. If you offer a product that others can't or don't want to provide, you can ask for more money! The sole reason why Saudis and UAE operates expensive European fighters next to the US once, is the higher capability in certain fields, the less restrictions and the customisations according to their needs. And what is better for PAF, an F16 B52 with JDAM, or a Mirage with Raad?
We tend to complain about the high costs, but we don't look at the benefits we get in return and I guess PAF and IAF have reasons why they are interested in French fighters, or even French stuff for JF 17, Mig 29s...

 

[rockstar08]

@Donatello

We need a replacement for the F-7PG's, they too now are 16 years old.

The point is to have a 'cheap stopgap'. If the UAE is willing to sell them at a throw away price, we should buy them.

Spares issue can be solved by upgrading the existing Mirage RF. Our pilots too have flown these Mirages, as well as our own Mirage experiance, should suffice. PAF has proven to absorb different technologies and these Dash-9s are not totally unfamiliar to us.

French will sell anything once India is 'locked in' the Rafale contract.

@rockstarIN

The trick is the price and the road to a new jet from China, be it the FC-20 or J-31, is wide open into the future.

Again these dash-9s will be used as a stop gap to allow for a 5th generation jet.

but sir jee dont you think it can cost us for maintenance and flying cost ? why to bid n old elephants if we can take new jets from china on soft loans ... plus paf was never after number superiority but air superiority , j-10s will give us that edge over indian su30mki, and till they start getting rafale we will be have blk3 jf-17 and may be we can further upgrade j10s to counter rafale threat ..
what do you think aeronaut ?

 

[Kompromat]

@sancho

* We don't know the unit cost UAE might ask for.

* J-10B isn't as radily available as you think, due to WS-10 issue.

 

[acetophenol]

If anything remotely to PAF getting ex-M2Ks,I am sure India will throw a sledge hammer into that deal

 

[slapshot]

If anything remotely to PAF getting ex-M2Ks,I am sure India will throw a sledge hammer into that deal

Indeed. Actually it would be interesting to see Indian response. Maybe PAF should try a troll attempt and get in touch with France discussing possibilities and budget. India is already creating delays in MMRCA and its been years since French are waiting for it. It would be nice to see how French will deal with situation if India asks them to stay away from any deal with Pakistan

 

[Kompromat]

If anything remotely to PAF getting ex-M2Ks,I am sure India will throw a sledge hammer into that deal

Refrain from turning this thread into an India Pakistan contest.

@rockstarIN

Sir, J-10B is not for PAF until our Chinese friends can provide a reliable WS-10/15.

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

If the UAE sells them to us at a fair price, we can turn the Mirage rebuild factory into a Mirage-2000-9 refurbishment and spares facility.

PAF has highly competent flight maintainance crew, and i'm hopeful that it won't take them long to adapt to the Dash9's.

These jets are state of the art, right between our Block 52s and JF-17s. They will allow us to maintain a 'credible and potent, single engine Hi-Lo mix'.

Such a mix of Vipers,Mirages and Thunders, integrated along with AEW&C, EW assets and a Network Centric Air Defense net, would be enough to defeat the enemy air crafts inside 'our' airspace for the forseeable future.

@shanixee

If you have nothing to contibute here, then you are free to opt out.

it's a definite go-ahead from me ... but the point is : is P.a.F. interested in that ? or are they even aware of this opportunity of the century ?

 

[ziaulislam]

actually PAF isnt even considering this option. so why are we even discussing it. even if UAE offers them free due to JF-17s , j-10s and option of older f-16s