Open Debate l Ex-UAE Mirage 2000-9s for PAF, aye or nay ?

[rockstarIN]

Refrain from turning this thread into an India Pakistan contest.

@rockstarIN

Sir, J-10B is not for PAF until our Chinese friends can provide a reliable WS-10/15.

You can always 'upgrade' later with new engines which you anyways going to do with JF-17 while China will make sure that they will have sufficient stock of engines as they are using it in their J10,11 & Su 27s.

5th Gen is still away for more than a decade for all of us except F-35 (may be).

Also you cant have max 2-3 squadron of 5 th gen due to high operational cost(applicable for everybody). you do need a 4.5gen jet apart from F-16 in long term as IAF getting Rafales even we are poised to receive PAK FA.

 

[Luftwaffe]

actually PAF isnt even considering this option. so why are we even discussing it. even if UAE offers them free due to JF-17s , j-10s and option of older f-16s

PAF can consider any option when funds/loans are provided they have done that with mirages, p3c orions, c-130s. Remember how PAF ran here and there for older mirages from lebanon, libya and australia and then painstaking task to negotiate and upgrade those mirages. These mirages hardly needs upgrades sufficient for PAF's requirements but the main problem is funds...as for spares I already told how are these mirage ROSE/non ROSE flying in this day, at the end of the day the main problem is funds, sheikh works on full cash they don't bother with loan requests, who can stop u.a.e deal with hindustan if india throws in a billion which they can anyday to steal the deal. Hindustan did that to you with mirage 2000 and rafale and jf-17 avionics/weapons.

 

[monitor]

I may be wrong but you have the infrastructure for the rebuilding factory for mirage I/II series of aircraft but not for mirage 2000 series so how I/II infrastructure would be helpful. for the short term better stick to get more refurbish F-16 with block 52 standard along with if possible some block 60 as you are already use it for 30 years and have necessary manpower.

 

[nangyale]

There is not point is spending resources and time on a jet which is retiring, is very expensive to buy, will be expensive to upgrade and has limited upgrade options.
I would like to know what does M2K bring to the table which the thunder won't be able to do. Apart from the psychological benefit of saying that French A2A weaponry is better than Chinese.
It's a deal based completely on what ifs and nothing else. That is
What if UAE wanted to sell it at throw away price.
What if they will sell it with most of it's weaponry.
What if France is willing to support these jets once they are with PAF.
What if India play nice and not sabotage such a deal by offering more money both to UAE and France.
What if they sell it in the very near future and in big numbers (rather than doing it in stages over a period of time)
To me this sounds more like wishful thinking than anything concrete. No wonder there is no talk of PAF being interested.

 

[Rain]

There are several arguments against this possible purchase, one is that India has this plane since 20 years and they are planning to use it atleast a 10 15 yers mores, thus it will be difficult for PAF to upgrade those jets and get new Weapons systems.

this is right, but to knw this Jet from inside out we must buy few at least a squadron so that OUR Shaheens can know them better and get use to its tech.

this might softe Franchies a bit if we buy a few and intend to buy more.... We all know the Greeeeeeed factor..

Just a humble opinion, don't kill me for that.

 

[Saleem]

all this is waste of time..by end of next year the ganjs baradaran and their allies the asif z team will have sold of all national assets and the patakhas as well...end of story.......

 

[sancho]

@sancho

* We don't know the unit cost UAE might ask for.

* J-10B isn't as radily available as you think, due to WS-10 issue.

We have seen more than enough reports to get at least a hint about it, especially since the French are trying to convince them to buy Rafale instead and even the they are complaining about the price the UAE ask for. Also keep in mind the costs that the UAE paid for them and would pay for even more costly fighters, why would they then give the rather new M2K-9 for cheap rates, maybe even loans? But as I said, the unit cost is only secondary, the first issue is the availability of funds in PAF.

WS10 might be a preference for PAF (although I don't see a difference in using RD93 in JFT), but doesn't mean that the fighter is not ready and availabe yet. Only if Russia would deny J10 with AL31 engines, the fiighter would not be available now, but correct me if I'm wrong, so far the Russians didn't stated something like that or?

 

[Manticore]

how many counties operate m2k
is any one selling
what's the cost of used m2k
what's the cost and chances of upgrade
spare parts and support - france with held our mirages during kargil
is the production line closed
benefit over jft [integration, cost, capability, service life]
chances of integrating our own stuff on m2k
service life of used m2k
does paf have the luxury of wasting money on stop gap things
can paf buy j10 in the same money


After pondering over the above questions, it becomes clear that m2k's chances in paf have slimmed down since jft and j10b have come to the scene -- unless our muslim brothers donate us the fighters, paf shouldnt go for it ---

Moreover what would the possible customers of jft say? i.e why is paf is going for m2k-- after china, has the paf also ditched jft? As a seller you have to have confidence in your stuff otherwise no one else would buy it

PAF should make war doctrine and strategy for jft

 

[Donatello]

@Donatello

We need a replacement for the F-7PG's, they too now are 16 years old.

The point is to have a 'cheap stopgap'. If the UAE is willing to sell them at a throw away price, we should buy them.

Spares issue can be solved by upgrading the existing Mirage RF. Our pilots too have flown these Mirages, as well as our own Mirage experiance, should suffice. PAF has proven to absorb different technologies and these Dash-9s are not totally unfamiliar to us.

French will sell anything once India is 'locked in' the Rafale contract.

Aeronaut,

What makes you think that India will not purchase these 'throw-away' price Mirage 2000s?

They already operate the type, they can upgrade them and they have the money. So in order to deny PAF these Mirages, Indians can do anything.

Also, with time and effort, JF-17 will actually mature faster and perhaps leap ahead of the Mirage 2000.

If anything, PAF should go for J-10 or Flankers from China, and then Stealth.

 

[sancho]

how many counties operate m2k
is any one selling
what's the cost of used m2k

Only Qatar really seeks for a replacement now and last time IAF asked for the 12 fighters, they asked for around $750 millions => $62,5 millions each. The UAE once are more advanced and even newer and the simple fact that they keep upgrading them nearly every year with new capabilities, shows their appreciation for the M2K-9s.

 

[Donatello]

We have seen more than enough reports to get at least a hint about it, especially since the French are trying to convince them to buy Rafale instead and even the they are complaining about the price the UAE ask for. Also keep in mind the costs that the UAE paid for them and would pay for even more costly fighters, why would they then give the rather new M2K-9 for cheap rates, maybe even loans? But as I said, the unit cost is only secondary, the first issue is the availability of funds in PAF.

WS10 might be a preference for PAF (although I don't see a difference in using RD93 in JFT), but doesn't mean that the fighter is not ready and availabe yet. Only if Russia would deny J10 with AL31 engines, the fiighter would not be available now, but correct me if I'm wrong, so far the Russians didn't stated something like that or?

Hold on to your horses......

What does WS-10 has to do with UAE Mirage 2000 discussion?

Please, refrain from derailing the thread.

and the Mirage 2000 in UAE service are not exactly new.......other wise they would not be replacing them, but rather upgrading them like India is doing.

 

[sancho]

Hold on to your horses......

What does WS-10 has to do with UAE Mirage 2000 discussion?

Please, refrain from derailing the thread.

and the Mirage 2000 in UAE service are not exactly new.......other wise they would not be replacing them, but rather upgrading them like India is doing.

Maybe you should read the part that I quoted too, before accusing me for something, because then you know where the WS10 come from!

And the UAE had no intention to replace the M2K-9s (the oldest are only at half of the life), but France asked them to buy Rafale and sell the M2Ks 2nd hand.

 

[Donatello]

Maybe you should read the part that I quoted too, before accusing me for something, because then you know where the WS10 come from!

And the UAE had no intention to replace the M2K-9s (the oldest are only at half of the life), but France asked them to buy Rafale and sell the M2Ks 2nd hand.

Hmm...do you really think the UAE are that dumbfounded that they will phase out an aircraft with life in it in favor of a new one, just because the manufacturer said so?

Yeah, probably some diplomatic wrangling going on, but Mirage 2000 that UAE has, are very potent, i believe the same standard that IAF is upgrading it's Mirage 2000 to. So it makes no sense to sell them, or if they will sell them they won't want to do it cheaply.

Now, if the UAE sells Mirage 2000 for say 10-15 million $ a piece, maybe PAF can look into it, since JF-17 have to be manufactured to be in service, whereas the Mirage 2000 can be be 'in hand' whenever the payment is complete.

But then again, i would reiterate, that putting limited funds into this platform seems unlikely. But you never know what the UAE comes up with.

 

[sancho]

Hmm...do you really think the UAE are that dumbfounded that they will phase out an aircraft with life in it in favor of a new one, just because the manufacturer said so?

Who said so? I only showed you that they were approached for a replacement and did not issued an own interest to do so. And if you would follow the negotiations, you would understand that the UAE wants more in return than just a new fighter.

 

[rockstar08]

still no good idea man ,, till when we will be relaying on old platforms ? upgrade f-16s to blk50/52 or 60 in future will be good but mirages are not ameriki maal .... they are like senior citizens ... and again as i mention in my last post , paf should not look for numbers but quality ... and i am sure j-10s are way to better than upgraded mirages !!