Not so secular India

[Developereo]

If stating history as it is , is promoting distrust so be it.

People deserve to know what really happened , not white washed ones. That is their fundamental right.

The RSS textbooks twist historical facts to exaggerate and explicitly portray contemporary Indian Muslims as potential traitors with questionable loyalties. I already posted extracts elsewhere and I don't want to derail here.

We have long moved on. And I dont see what heritage we lost.

But you haven't moved on. You guys are intent on renaming, reclaiming, redefining anything you consider "alien". This is precisely the Hindutva agenda: to brand India as an exclusively Hindu state. It is the antithesis of secularism.

Well I don't think we can agree on this because of our respective faiths. We (Hindus) are well within our right to demand our most holy places that were sacked and plundered by foreign invaders be returned to us.And unless the Muslim themselves dont identify with the foreign invaders more than with the local culture (as you claimed they do) I dont see any reason for their hesitation.

The 'reason' is plain enough: this is only the thin edge of the wedge. It's not just 'Ram Mandir'; as you guys yourselves admitted on this forum, there are a number of allegedly Hindu sites that need to be "reclaimed", including the Taj Mahal.

If we Hindus were in a mood to 'reverse' every wrong that was done then there would have been no Muslims left in India. The demand is the bare minimum - a site that is our most holiest, a site on which a previous temple existed and which was demolished to build a victory monument be returned. By any stretch of imagination, I dont see how it is wrong.

Like I wrote, this is only the beginning of the Hindutva resurgence. God only knows how India will treat its Muslims once the Arab oil runs out and there is no need to maintain pretenses any more.

No one is holding the Muslims hostage. They themselves are a hostage to their identity and more frankly they (many I have met especially those from North India) suffer from an identity crisis as to who they really are. Not from a political or a nationality pov, but from a spiritual,cultural pov.

There is no "identity crisis" for people who accept Islam as part of Indian culture. Any conflict is only for people who believe that India=Hindu and there is no place for Islam in India.

And blaming the Hindus for that is the most dis-ingenious one. Why ? Already explained.

But it is the Hindus who are intent on "reclaiming" the past. The Muslims want to put the past behind and move on; they are not the ones obsessed with "reclaiming" things all over the place.

Your personal view and you have the right to that. I may not agree with it.

Nothing 'personal' about it. You guys have plainly admitted the need to "reclaim" indigenous artifacts, i.e. Hindu artifacts, by destroying those items you consider alien.

You are getting confused. Ancient Bharat was the landmass between the four boundaries of Himalayas up North, Myanmar on the East, Indian Ocean down south and Hindukush on the West

There is nothing like 'core' bharati and 'not-so-core' Bharati. Anything within the above mentioned features was considered Bharat.

I might even include Gandhara - Queen Gandhari in Mahabharatha and Shakuni (uncle of Kauravas) were from Gandhara.

I see only the Pakistanis distinguishing the IVC from Indian culture for ,whatever reason. But historian world over dont think so.

Let's come back to reality.

- The word "India" is a foreign word, used first by the Greeks -- way, way, way late in the game -- to refer to the region in general. It has as much political relevance as the phrase "the Orient".

- The word "Bharat" is used loosely by local people to refer to the region without regard to any political definition. The actual empires only existed very briefly, and none existed during the heydey of the IVC.

- Instead of going through dancing around, perhaps you can tell us right now exactly which Bharati empire encased the IVC lands from 2600 - 1900 BCE?. If not, the IVC was a foreign influence on Hinduism and those parts of Hinduism should be rejected, as per your logic.

The other option, of course, is that Indian culture has nothing whatsoever to do with the IVC -- and that admission would be fine by us!

Culture is strongly influenced by religious practises.

In other words, despite the stock pronouncements of "we are all Indians", you will never accept Indian Muslims as true Indians. Because their culture is "alien".

Feel free to disprove the data given there.

Perhaps you didn't read your own link. It doesn't dispute the findings of the commission regarding discrimination; it only takes issue with the suggested remedies. And the few instances it lists to try and refute discrimination are ridiculously transparent: Muslims in the Gulf? automobile repairs? zari work? most of these are either private businesses and trades, which are started by Muslims themselves, or they are the usual Indian trick of pleasing the Arab clients by presenting a false picture of Indian harmony.

Sachar documented the reality of discrimination within India proper.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I like what Confucius said about secularism, way back 2500 years ago.

"敬鬼神而远之" - Respect Gods and ghosts, but from a distance.

 

[Developereo]

RSS is not India... there are far worse Muslim groups like SIMMI, IM etc... in the Muslim community.

Etremist muslims are not in a position to enforce their vision on India; extremist Hindus are.

If that were so... you not be seeing so many Monuments from the Mughal era standing tall.... neither emperors like Akbar bebg respected so much.

The debate less about what has happened til now, but whether there are any trends. Is RSS becoming more popular? Is its guardian organization, BJP, becoming more popular? Are issues that would be abhorrent in the past becoming more acceptable in mainstream discussion?

Again a few does not represent the whole.... If that were so then whole Muslim Community should be considered as Terrorist and sent to Guantanamo.

See above.

There were many wrongs and rights done in each era... and name me one Muslim in India who is being held as hostage.... for any thing which was done by Mughals in past...

KS already claimed that Muslim leaders "should have" relinquished Babri Masjid voluntarily. Muslims of today are being required to atone for the sins of the past.

Yet not enforced... No temple at the site....

The mosque was destroyed. The Hindu demand was enforced.

Do we need to reassert any identity upon anything ??... why not ask yourself.

Perhaps you missed the posts by fellow Indians about reclaiming Hindu heritage sites.

IVC happened in India... wonder what they teach in Pakistan but the land beyond Hindukush or Indus was Hindustan, India or Bharat.

Already address with a reality check in previous post.

The culture Changed with time and have had its effect on outsiders even who have blended to Indian culture with time... and thats have happened from ancient times... Mughals did nothing exceptional.

Exactly. I am not the one saying Muslim culture, however morphed and evolved, is "alien" to India. It is your fellow Indians.

Thats for Indian Muslims to decide.... you are a No one.

Not even Indian Muslims. The matter is being decided for them by other with a vested interest.

---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 PM ----------

I like what Confucius said about secularism, way back 2500 years ago.

"敬鬼神而远之" - Respect Gods and ghosts, but from a distance.

The question is not whether secularism is good or bad, but whether it is under attack in India, which proudly claims to be secular. The battle lines are forming in India between those who want to preserve secularism, and those who want to throw away all pretense and proudly declare India to be a fundamentally Hindu state.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The question is not whether secularism is good or bad, but whether it is under attack in India, which proudly claims to be secular. The battle lines are forming in India between those who want to preserve secularism, and those who want to throw away all pretense and proudly declare India to be a fundamentally Hindu state.

India claiming to be secular is quite incredible. Their politics revolves around chasing vote-banks based on religious affiliations. Congress looks for the minority votes, while the BJP goes after the Hindu votes.

 

[JohnyD]

India claiming to be secular is quite incredible. Their politics revolves around chasing vote-banks based on religious affiliations. Congress looks for the minority votes, while the BJP goes after the Hindu votes.

learn to live with multi party democracy of over billion people...u r going to ve it in near future..it might sound so complex to u but there is no alternative to democracy....

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

learn to live with multi party democracy of over billion people...u r going to ve it in near future..it might sound so complex to u but there is no alternative to democracy....

Maybe we will have democracy in a few decades time. Wen Jiabao has already said that political reform is inevitable, it is just a matter of timing.

That doesn't mean we're going to start burning Dalits alive though like they do in India, we'll be a democracy like those in East Asia.

 

[JohnyD]

That doesn't mean we're going to start burning Dalits alive though like they do in India, we'll be a democracy like those in East Asia.

ohh..so buring Dalits hurts u..what abt burning Tibetians??? they are literallly burning themselves...and China is the only country after German who have killed large number of their own people...and human rights..u r in the darkest side after couple of african countries..so get ur acts corrected before talking abt others...

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

ohh..so buring Dalits hurts u..what abt burning Tibetians??? they are literallly burning themselves...and China is the only country after German who have killed large number of their own people...and human rights..u r in the darkest side after couple of african countries..so get ur acts corrected before talking abt others...

Yeah, they are burning themselves. They made the choice to do so.

Not like these:

Physically-challenged Dalit girl burnt alive in Haryana - Times Of India

Two Dalit sisters burnt alive by mob - Times Of India

(There are billions of links about Dalits being burned alive, but I'll only post two to avoid spamming).

 

[Developereo]

India claiming to be secular is quite incredible. Their politics revolves around chasing vote-banks based on religious affiliations. Congress looks for the minority votes, while the BJP goes after the Hindu votes.

I have no issue with the Hindutva agenda conquering India and India declaring itself to be a Hindu state. It is their choice, of course.

My only interest in the matter is the hypocrisy of some groups to score brownie points for secularism while glorifying the Hindutva agenda at the same time. The two are fundamentally incompatible.

 

[desimorty]

Considering the vast diversity India has its a wonder India still exists as a secular nation! There is no other example of secular nation that has so much diversity, onto of that the Indian Muslims don't seem to act like the ones in Pakistan, Afghanistan or Iraq that kill other minorities even minority muslims.
Violence and discrimination against minorities should not be tolerated and be dealt with swiftly. These things happened all over the world, not just South Asia. Africa, The middle east, and even in the United States to China.
But despite all this and 150 or more million muslims in India, India still remains a relativity peaceful country to live in and grow. That needs to be applauded.
You can take all the jabs you want against India but Pakistan has a worse record when dealing with minority groups. The current state of Pakistan is a testimony to that.
And yes India can take more action, I would like India to take more action in policing its own people but not the extent China has or the United States.
Personal freedom is privilege and we must cling onto it with out lives.
In due time people will learn to speak the modern language as they have started doing. Money, no Islam or Knrishna will save India.

 

[KS]

They just have a compelling need to justify their separation every day.

Every bloody day! That is the curse....

Bingo ! You hit the nail on the head.

 

[JohnyD]

Yeah, they are burning themselves. They made the choice to do so.

what point u r making by hidding ur own arse...wen u ve no clarification or point to prove..u search good for some anti india news and put then in thread..

look man...india does not hide anything...its free society ..even if someboyd has killed even a dog..it will be publised..not like gross human rights voilators China..u dont even let Dog to live leave alone humans..

 

[KS]

The RSS textbooks twist historical facts to exaggerate and explicitly portray contemporary Indian Muslims as potential traitors with questionable loyalties. I already posted extracts elsewhere and I don't want to derail here.

BS.

Infact if anybody of guilty of twisting facts it is the NCERT that whitewashes the medieval history of India and you have an entire generation of Indians screaming "Tipu the great", "Babur the kind" etc.

But you haven't moved on. You guys are intent on renaming, reclaiming, redefining anything you consider "alien". This is precisely the Hindutva agenda: to brand India as an exclusively Hindu state. It is the antithesis of secularism.

I have already given the example of this renaming is not restricted to Islamic invaders. Even the names given by British were changed based on popular demand which cut across religious lines.

And stop putting your personal views as our objectives. You look desperate while trying to do so.

The 'reason' is plain enough: this is only the thin edge of the wedge. It's not just 'Ram Mandir'; as you guys yourselves admitted on this forum, there are a number of allegedly Hindu sites that need to be "reclaimed", including the Taj Mahal.

Your inference. Not necessarily our demand.

Like I wrote, this is only the beginning of the Hindutva resurgence. God only knows how India will treat its Muslims once the Arab oil runs out and there is no need to maintain pretenses any more.

If you think we treat our Muslims good only because os the Arab oil, sorry to say, you are a bigger fool than I previously thought.

There is no "identity crisis" for people who accept Islam as part of Indian culture. Any conflict is only for people who believe that India=Hindu and there is no place for Islam in India.

I thought I had made that very clear.

Islam is an alien idealogy to the SC while Muslims may not be.

So naturally this causes a identity conflict which I have experienced with many North Indian Muslims.

But it is the Hindus who are intent on "reclaiming" the past. The Muslims want to put the past behind and move on; they are not the ones obsessed with "reclaiming" things all over the place.

They (a minority of Muslims who identify with the foreign Islamic invaders) want the past put on behind , not because of any saintly reasons, but because they dont want accountability. Good for them. Even the Hindus have mostly moved on except in a bare minimum of cases like Ram Janmabhoomi and it is only natural. No one is a saint here and after all we are humans.

Nothing 'personal' about it. You guys have plainly admitted the need to "reclaim" indigenous artifacts, i.e. Hindu artifacts, by destroying those items you consider alien.

It is not what we consider "alien". They are decidedly "alien". History is proof. And I had already made it clear its not on everything, but limited to a bare minimum of our holiest sites. Nothing unreasonable.

Let's come back to reality.

- The word "India" is a foreign word, used first by the Greeks -- way, way, way late in the game -- to refer to the region in general. It has as much political relevance as the phrase "the Orient".

- The word "Bharat" is used loosely by local people to refer to the region without regard to any political definition. The actual empires only existed very briefly, and none existed during the heydey of the IVC.

- Instead of going through dancing around, perhaps you can tell us right now exactly which Bharati empire encased the IVC lands from 2600 - 1900 BCE?. If not, the IVC was a foreign influence on Hinduism and those parts of Hinduism should be rejected, as per your logic.

The other option, of course, is that Indian culture has nothing whatsoever to do with the IVC -- and that admission would be fine by us!

Any empire within the traditional accepted boundaries of Bharat - Himalayas(North), )Hindukush(West),Myanmar (East), Indian Ocean (South) would automatically become a component empire of Bharat or any civilization within the boundaries a part of the Bharat civilization.

I dont know why are you getting confused on this simple equation.

In other words, despite the stock pronouncements of "we are all Indians", you will never accept Indian Muslims as true Indians. Because their culture is "alien".

You are putting words in my mouth.

Even earlier I had said the North Indian muslims had an identity crisis only spiritually or idealogically, never from a political or national pov.

Take your time and understand what is being said.

Perhaps you didn't read your own link. It doesn't dispute the findings of the commission regarding discrimination; it only takes issue with the suggested remedies. And the few instances it lists to try and refute discrimination are ridiculously transparent: Muslims in the Gulf? automobile repairs? zari work? most of these are either private businesses and trades, which are started by Muslims themselves, or they are the usual Indian trick of pleasing the Arab clients by presenting a false picture of Indian harmony.

Sachar documented the reality of discrimination within India proper.

I take it that you did not understand what Sachar committee is all about. Sachar committee is NOT about whether Muslims are backward or not..but regarding the cause of their backwardness - wwhether it was due to explicit discrimination or due to their own social ills. And it was clearly proved that their backwardness is not due to any discrimination from the society.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Why did they burn themselves ? They were forced to due to the Han oppression in their homeland.

Hahaha those evil Han Chinese. You know we are the biggest ethnic group on the planet right.

And we all know who is winning this game:

Terrorism Risk Index - Maplecroft

India - Highest category (Extreme risk) of terrorism

China - Lowest category (Low risk) of terrorism

The longer this proxy conflict goes on, the more India loses. Too bad that India couldn't even convince the Dalai Lama to support Tibetan independence.

Dalai Lama: Tibet Wants Autonomy, Not Independence - TIME

 

[KS]

Yeah, they are burning themselves. They made the choice to do so.

(There are billions of links about Dalits being burned alive, but I'll only post two to avoid spamming).

Why did they burn themselves ? They were forced to due to the Han oppression in their homeland.

There is a legal term for that - they were coerced to burn themselves. They had no other choice to escape the Han slavery.

---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 PM ----------

My only interest in the matter is the hypocrisy of some groups to score brownie points for secularism while glorifying the Hindutva agenda at the same time. The two are fundamentally incompatible.

I think your experience with Islam has given the idea that all religions are final and absolutist that secularism (tolerance and respect for other faiths) cannot be a part of the religion itself.

Welcome to Hinduism !

And that is why we can talk of secularism and Hindutva in the same breath. Secularism is a concept that is the backbone of Hinduism.

---------- Post added at 03:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 PM ----------

Hahaha those evil Han Chinese. You know we are the biggest ethnic group on the planet right.

And we all know who is winning this game:

Terrorism Risk Index - Maplecroft

India - Highest category (Extreme risk) of terrorism

China - Lowest category (Low risk) of terrorism

The longer this proxy conflict goes on, the more India loses. Too bad that India couldn't even convince the Dalai Lama to support Tibetan independence, he says that "Tibet is a part of China".

I think you forgot the wiki link on "Global Peace Index". I'll give you 2 mins. Edit your post.