New Modified Z-10ME Attack Helicopter

[Hu Yao]

The engine WZ-9 is enough to Z-10 (about 6 tons) now.
Z-20 is using the engine WZ-10, which will be used for a new gunship (about 10 tons).

Why we need so many kinds of gunships?

I thought z-10 and z-19 is enough. We need some Mi-35 to carry out CASR mission.

 

[LKJ86]

Why we need so many kinds of gunships?

I thought z-10 and z-19 is enough. We need some Mi-35 to carry out CASR mission.

China needs a gunship like AH-64.

 

[LKJ86]

The engine WZ-9 of Z-10

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Should induct this till we get T-129 from Turkey
It's a valuable new asset

 

[Path-Finder]

The engine WZ-9 of Z-10
View attachment 544980 View attachment 544981 View attachment 544982 View attachment 544983 View attachment 544984 View attachment 544985 View attachment 544986 View attachment 544987

whats the technical data on this?

 

[aziqbal]

I think the Z10 is not the best helicopter

It’s China’s first attempt for dedicated attack helo

I am a fan of Chinese equipment but

T129 is best

 

[mdmm]

Kindly provide information, like,how many attack helicopter/chopper do Pakistan have right now,in good working conditions??
1-is Pakistan buy Z-10 or Z-20 ??
2-When will Turkey supply T129 helicopter to Pakistan,as agreement was signed last year for 40 of T129 ??

 

[The Accountant]

Kindly provide information, like,how many attack helicopter/chopper do Pakistan have right now,in good working conditions??
1-is Pakistan buy Z-10 or Z-20 ??
2-When will Turkey supply T129 helicopter to Pakistan,as agreement was signed last year for 40 of T129 ??

You should do some research ...

 

[Cornered Tiger]

World Air Forces 2018 reported that PAF has 3 Z-10s and 17 on order.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Cant we put the Chinese engine into the turkish helo? Buy the engine with complete technology and build it at home, same goes with the Turkish helo

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

I think it's time to give this thread a bump.

Turkish deal is not in danger, it will go through. USA will approved it.

How's that working out?

Turkey is not like China, copying everything. Majority of Chinese equipment is copy from other countries. Russian, French, Ukraine (technical help from Ukraine), Pakistan (USA equipment), hacked/data stolen.

Of course Turkey isn't like China, Turkey is nowhere near China when it comes to technological development. Think whatever you like about how China got to where it is today, but there's no denying that its military technology has reached world-class levels.

To quote @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

If they are unable to secure those export permits, Turkey will offer the ATAK to Pakistan with its domestic TS1400 turboshaft engine. Development of the TS1400 began in February 2017, and it is currently slated for induction and serial production by 2025.

Turkey's attempt at a turboshaft engine won't be ready by 2025, if they're lucky it might be ready by 2035. Even taking the 2025 date, the engine will still be inferior to WZ-9 engines in service today, let alone improved variants in service then.

It's unfair to just pick on you, plenty of pro-Turkish Pakistanis think like you; so this is directed to all of them: the days when China manufactured shoddy Happy Meal toys for export to lift itself out of poverty are long past. In turboshafts specifically, Chinese engines have reached parity with Western ones. You can open your eyes to the new reality and advocate that Pakistan dump its third-rate T129 (now nothing more than an oversized paperweight thanks to American sanctions) and buy the best medium attack helicopter on the market today

or you can persist in your blindness and keep having this discussion until 2025... 2030... 2035.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think it's time to give this thread a bump.

How's that working out?


Of course Turkey isn't like China, Turkey is nowhere near China when it comes to technological development. Think whatever you like about how China got to where it is today, but there's no denying that its military technology has reached world-class levels.

To quote @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Turkey's attempt at a turboshaft engine won't be ready by 2025, if they're lucky it might be ready by 2035. Even taking the 2025 date, the engine will still be inferior to WZ-9 engines in service today, let alone improved variants in service then.

It's unfair to just pick on you, plenty of pro-Turkish Pakistanis think like you; so this is directed to all of them: the days when China manufactured shoddy Happy Meal toys for export to lift itself out of poverty are long past. In turboshafts specifically, Chinese engines have reached parity with Western ones. You can open your eyes to the new reality and advocate that Pakistan dump its third-rate T129 (now nothing more than an oversized paperweight thanks to American sanctions) and buy the best medium attack helicopter on the market today

or you can persist in your blindness and keep having this discussion until 2025... 2030... 2035.

Just a slight correction.

The TS1400 will be less mature than the WZ9, but I wouldn't say 'inferior.' The TS1400 is technically based on newer technology and concepts, but being a new engine, it might run into teething issues early on. Moreover, I don't know if the Z-10ME is using the WZ9 -- to match up with the PAA's hot-and-high requirements, I think it'd need a new engine (maybe the WZ16 co-developed with Safran, in which case, GOLD).

That said, I'd prefer we diversify projects beyond Turkey and China. I said it before, but attack helicopters ought to be an in-house project. The CAS field is maturing (e.g., data-links, remote UAV ops, fire-and-forget missiles, or even small cruise missiles), and I can see suppliers string is up here as they have on submarines and fighters.

The Rooivalk Mk2 would fit the bill. You can't go wrong with the Makila 1A or Makila 2 turboshaft engine -- they definitely work in the PAA's ops environment (Puma). The engine's an older design, so we might be able to get ToT from the OEM Safran Group as well. Moreover, Denel is willing to literally transfer the entire project to the buyer: “Through a joint venture programme of industrial participation and transfer of intellectual property, an indigenous attack helicopter production, support and upgrade/modification capability can be established" (link).

Yes, there are hang-ups for sure: Airbus Helicopters will have a say on some critical components, plus time and cost. However, we can work with Airbus. We are a customer of theirs already, and we can leverage the PN or PA's other helicopter needs (e.g., an eventual Sea King successor) to make their day.

Cost is also not that big of an issue. Denel already sunk a lot into the project from the 1990s, it's a write-down, hence they they only need 70-odd helicopters to make this project feasible (link). The PAA alone could sustain that run, and in turn, demand very generous ToT/IP transfer.

Finally, unlike both the T129 and Z-10ME, the Rooivalk Mk2 is a true Apache-class attack helicopter. It's of the same size and weight class. The real constraint are the electronics, and we can acquire or co-develop those with our existing partners (both Turkey and China will do it anyways for their own projects).

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

The TS1400 will be less mature than the WZ9, but I wouldn't say 'inferior.' The TS1400 is technically based on newer technology and concepts, but being a new engine, it might run into teething issues early on.

OK, fine. Some variant of the TS1400 will be better than the current WZ-9 at some point in the future. But by the time that happens China will have moved on to ceramic matrix composite turboshafts.

Moreover, I don't know if the Z-10ME is using the WZ9 -- to match up with the PAA's hot-and-high requirements, I think it's using a new engine (maybe the WZ16 co-developed with Safran, in which case, GOLD).

There's no indication that the Z-10ME's engine is anything other than an improved WZ-9 (which was designed with a lot of room for improvement given projected advances in Chinese metallurgy at the time of design). The engine has an output of ~1200kW (~1650 shp), similar to the WZ-16.

Incidentally, the TS1400 designation is based on the shaft horsepower, which is around 1030kW. That's around the level of pre-2016 WZ-9s. If that's what you (not you, specifically, but Turkey boosters) want to wait until 2025 for - with no guarantee that it will be ready by then - that's up to you, but better is already available to you.

Chinese turbofans (including the WZ-9 and 1600kW WZ-10 used on the Z-20) use single-crystal turbine blades, just like Western ones do. So you needn't worry about the WZ-9 being behind any of your favourite Western engines.

Finally, unlike both the T129 and Z-10ME, the Rooivalk Mk2 is a true Apache-class attack helicopter. It's of the same size and weight class. The real constraint are the electronics, and we can acquire or co-develop those with our existing partners (both Turkey and China will do it anyways for their own projects).

I have a question: why are you looking around for all these marginal projects? If you think so highly of American and European military products, why not buy directly from them? Why are you looking for backdoors through some Turkish or South African project?

 

[Ark_Angel]

Just a slight correction.

The TS1400 will be less mature than the WZ9, but I wouldn't say 'inferior.' The TS1400 is technically based on newer technology and concepts, but being a new engine, it might run into teething issues early on. Moreover, I don't know if the Z-10ME is using the WZ9 -- to match up with the PAA's hot-and-high requirements, I think it'd need a new engine (maybe the WZ16 co-developed with Safran, in which case, GOLD).

That said, I'd prefer we diversify projects beyond Turkey and China. I said it before, but attack helicopters ought to be an in-house project. The CAS field is maturing (e.g., data-links, remote UAV ops, fire-and-forget missiles, or even small cruise missiles), and I can see suppliers string is up here as they have on submarines and fighters.

The Rooivalk Mk2 would fit the bill. You can't go wrong with the Makila 1A or Makila 2 turboshaft engine -- they definitely work in the PAA's ops environment (Puma). The engine's an older design, so we might be able to get ToT from the OEM Safran Group as well. Moreover, Denel is willing to literally transfer the entire project to the buyer: “Through a joint venture programme of industrial participation and transfer of intellectual property, an indigenous attack helicopter production, support and upgrade/modification capability can be established" (link).

Yes, there are hang-ups for sure: Airbus Helicopters will have a say on some critical components, plus time and cost. However, we can work with Airbus. We are a customer of theirs already, and we can leverage the PN or PA's other helicopter needs (e.g., an eventual Sea King successor) to make their day.

Cost is also not that big of an issue. Denel already sunk a lot into the project from the 1990s, it's a write-down, hence they they only need 70-odd helicopters to make this project feasible (link). The PAA alone could sustain that run, and in turn, demand very generous ToT/IP transfer.

Finally, unlike both the T129 and Z-10ME, the Rooivalk Mk2 is a true Apache-class attack helicopter. It's of the same size and weight class. The real constraint are the electronics, and we can acquire or co-develop those with our existing partners (both Turkey and China will do it anyways for their own projects).

Safran Group has become Indias little bitch like and so has AIRBUS. Recently PN had approached Airbus Helicopter Division for a Helo Req tender and their answer was even worse than what one can expect. Safran or even Airbus for that matter which has a French say:consider them out of your defence procurement equation. They have turned their a** towards Pakistan(ill be honest and casual). Rooivalk is an extremely high risk approach Bilal. What you arent keeping in view in your analysis is that money and indenginization aside its the lack that we are lacking the most. And there is a general assessment that another Balakot type situation might be here sooner than the general public understands. Therefore TIME is where we are running short on thanks for multiple Frenemies doing their bit to delay our defence modernization plans not even from third parties. The only viable option which ever it may be......even if its technically weaker than some other product as long as it is independent of 3rd party influences and the maker has the capacity to provide it at the given timeframe PA will go for it...........

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I have a question: why are you looking around for all these marginal projects? If you think so highly of American and European military products, why not buy directly from them? Why are you looking for backdoors through some Turkish or South African project?

Sure, I think highly of EU/US equipment. I mean, was it not the F-16 that downed 1-2 IAF aircraft in 2019? Was it not the Saab Erieye AEW&C and Falcon 20 EW/ECM that were critical to Ops Swift Retort? Heck, even the 50+ year old Mirage made a name for itself in the strike part of that operation, and with an old South African munition.

Unfortunately, Pakistan's having more and more trouble buying from the West. Not only that, but we are also sick of the strings and high cost, both of which take away from the country (in flexibility and spent hard currency).

So, I want these 'backdoor projects' to get in-house projects that solve those issues. It's as simple as that. So, for example, South Africa is saying, 'hey we have this Rooivalk Mk2, if you co-fund it, we'll give you its IP.'

Yes, China's willing to sell, great. But I'd rather Pakistan carve its own path and be as independent as possible in terms of its armaments. If there are opportunities that can get Pakistan to that goal, go for it.

Safran Group has become Indias little bitch like and so has AIRBUS. Recently PN had approached Airbus Helicopter Division for a Helo Req tender and their answer was even worse than what one can expect. Safran or even Airbus for that matter which has a French say:consider them out of your defence procurement equation. They have turned their a** towards Pakistan(ill be honest and casual). Rooivalk is an extremely high risk approach Bilal. What you arent keeping in view in your analysis is that money and indenginization aside its the lack that we are lacking the most. And there is a general assessment that another Balakot type situation might be here sooner than the general public understands. Therefore TIME is where we are running short on thanks for multiple Frenemies doing their bit to delay our defence modernization plans not even from third parties. The only viable option which ever it may be......even if its technically weaker than some other product as long as it is independent of 3rd party influences and the maker has the capacity to provide it at the given timeframe PA will go for it...........

I agree with you overall, especially on time. However, if the Army is saying that a Balakot-like situation is coming that could involve the use of attack helicopters (i.e., IA IBGs), then we're on a whole other level of problems than Balakot. It's basically a full-out war.

In which case, not only should you go for the 'good enough' solution available now, but it must be in relatively larger numbers. Do we have the fiscal resources to get those numbers that early?

I heard NORINCO say it won the Haider MBT bid, but the Army didn't sign the dotted line for the VT4. So, I wonder, if it's less than 60-70 Z-10MEs, how much are we really adding to our capabilities relative to the threat India poses? We couldn't even commit to 100-150 tanks, or the SH-15 SPH program, not sure what came of it.

That said, I am all for building joint armor, artillery and aviation groups with Chinese VT4s, Z-10MEs, SH-15s and whatever else, but it better be done in enough numbers and come as early as possible to match the urgency. But this is a multi-billion dollar program for sure, at least if you want it to deter or stop a Balakot-like ops on the ground.

I really, really don't think the Army has the fiscal space for that, especially with COVID-19 and stuff.