New Modified Z-10ME Attack Helicopter

[ZeEa5KPul]

I don't think it's as ugly as this

Original French

Chinese Fat Junk



I can swear it is more reliable than a Chinese whose 9 words are 10 lies.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/wz9.htm

Thanks for those pictures, it really shows how China absorbs and improves technology. No shame in that whatsoever, take the best and make it even better. Case in point:

became

better performing and better looking. Look at that sleek black finish!
As for globalsecurity.com as a source...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Nice, so you licensed a second-hand helicopter from Italy. Very nice. It just goes further to proving my point that Turkey has zero technological capability. All second-hand Euro stuff with a tackier coat of paint.

See, you're just demonstrating your ignorance more and more. You know nothing about Chinese engine development. The WZ-9 is a wholly indigenous design that was intended to match the MTR390. Mission more than accomplished. If you wanted to go the Ukraine route, you might have gone with GT-25000.

Kamov was commissioned by China to do some consulting work. It's not like Turkey does it with slapping a coat of paint on hand-me-down European weapons.

You didn't make an agreement. Making an agreement means you deliver what you promised to the party that paid you. You didn't do that - you stole $1.5 billion from Pakistan. It's obvious you can't deliver the goods, are you going to refund their money?

You have a real comprehension problem. Russia didn't design helicopters for China. And I never claimed Chinese helicopters were better than Western ones, I said they are on the same level. For Chinese helicopters to be better, it would have to move first to ceramic matrix composite engines and other such next-generation technologies. Chinese choppers might be slightly better due to being designed and constructed more recently, but that's not a generational leap.

In any case, the competition is between China and the West - a clash of superpowers. Turkey isn't involved, it's too little and marginal.

Just a correction on the payments issue. The Pakistani T129 contract is worth $1.5 b, but it's run through a credit line offered by the Gov't of Turkey. Both sides sensed the risk of the deal, so to buffer it, it's the Turkish gov't that paid its companies (TAI and Aselsan) to manufacture the Pak Army T129s. Pakistan was to pay installments for delivery. Since the delivery isn't happening at this time, Pakistan isn't paying the Turks -- it's the Turkish Gov't which is absorbing the risk.

So, the "stole" part is a false jab. I'd withdraw it.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Thanks for those pictures, it really shows how China absorbs and improves technology. No shame in that whatsoever, take the best and make it even better. Case in point:

became

better performing and better looking. Look at that sleek black finish!
As for globalsecurity.com as a source...

Thank you for your good intentions, we do the same, we are dealing not only with garbage, but with quality.

Also, you were just saying that it was a shame, now you are boasting about it, man, I don't want to insult, but can you really be a jerk? As I understand it is a "Chinese" intelligence, trying to imitate the American helicopter and assuming itself more advanced than the Americans.

 

[Beast]

Thank you for your good intentions, we do the same, we are dealing not only with garbage, but with quality.

Also, you were just saying that it was a shame, now you are boasting about it, man, I don't want to insult, but can you really be a jerk? As I understand it is a "Chinese" intelligence, trying to imitate the American helicopter and assuming itself more advanced than the Americans.

I think indeed the Z-20 is better than S-70 Blackhawk. 5 blade rotor blade with more lifting power. More powerful turboshaft , digital fly by wire which S70 Blackhawk do not have

A copy doesn't necessarily its worst than it's predecessor. Are u going to claim CV-17 Shangdong carrier is worst off than Russian kuznetsov carrier?

Same as turkey T-129K which is a copy of Augusta mangoose attack helo but with upgraded avionics.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Just a correction on the payments issue. The Pakistani T129 contract is worth $1.5 b, but it's run through a credit line offered by the Gov't of Turkey. Both sides sensed the risk of the deal, so to buffer it, it's the Turkish gov't that paid its companies (TAI and Aselsan) to manufacture the Pak Army T129s. Pakistan was to pay installments for delivery. Since the delivery isn't happening at this time, Pakistan isn't paying the Turks -- it's the Turkish Gov't which is absorbing the risk.

So, the "stole" part is a false jab. I'd withdraw it.

Well, I'm sure you'd know about this situation much better than I, but I still suspect there are hooks Turkey put into the deal. It's unlikely they would have borne the risk entirely. Maybe the payments are suspended until Turkey makes deliveries at whatever point in the future, but if Pakistan tried to cancel the deal entirely and go with the Z-10ME, Turkey would invoke some fine print and sue Pakistan or something like that.

I actually never considered the issue of how Pakistan was paying for this before, I just assumed it was out of pocket. I was racking my brain trying to find a technical shortcoming of the early Z-10 vs the T129, but there might never have been any. Turkey might have just offered more generous financing than China.

 

[Beast]

Well, I'm sure you'd know about this situation much better than I, but I still suspect there are hooks Turkey put into the deal. It's unlikely they would have borne the risk entirely. Maybe the payments are suspended until Turkey makes deliveries at whatever point in the future, but if Pakistan tried to cancel the deal entirely and go with the Z-10ME, Turkey would invoke some fine print and sue Pakistan or something like that.

I actually never considered the issue of how Pakistan was paying for this before, I just assumed it was out of pocket. I was racking my brain trying to find a technical shortcoming of the early Z-10 vs the T129, but there might never have been any. Turkey might have just offered more generous financing than China.

I don't think PA will be sued. First of all Turkey missed the dateline to delivered. If u talk about sue, turkey need to be sued first.

RTA cancel the oplot-84 tank deal after missing delivery date for more than few years while going for Chinese VT-4 tank. Ukraine don't even dare to utter a single word of frustration at Thailand for cancelling the deal. They know they are wrong, they have no right to accuse Thai for breaking the deal.

 

[Armchair]

I think when one looks at the combat record of fixed wing CAS vs attack helicopters, it is clear that this strange obsession with $ 20 million to $50 million attack helicopers is highly unhealthy and harmful for Pakistan.

The combat record clearly shows that fixed wing CAS has consistently been cheaper and outperformed attack helicopters. It's just a shame.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Well, I'm sure you'd know about this situation much better than I, but I still suspect there are hooks Turkey put into the deal. It's unlikely they would have borne the risk entirely. Maybe the payments are suspended until Turkey makes deliveries at whatever point in the future, but if Pakistan tried to cancel the deal entirely and go with the Z-10ME, Turkey would invoke some fine print and sue Pakistan or something like that.

I actually never considered the issue of how Pakistan was paying for this before, I just assumed it was out of pocket. I was racking my brain trying to find a technical shortcoming of the early Z-10 vs the T129, but there might never have been any. Turkey might have just offered more generous financing than China.

Because this was a relatively large export order, and to notable customer, the Turks did go out of their way to back the deal. Prior to this contract, Turkey didn't have an export loan program for defence, so the Turkish Gov't footed one to Pakistan using its own national treasury. Moreover, the payments are broken into installments for 5-10 years, and that too contingent on delivery.

Whatever technical or political issues of the T129, the Turks offered a deal that could fit within Pakistan's constraints and requirements. And yes, the Turks bore the full risk -- they even gave their written word in the contract that securing the engines wasn't a problem, and that if it did become one, Pakistan can renege. This is why Pakistan can move quickly to an alternative, it clearly has freed-up cash (however limited).

 

[cabatli_53]

Incidentally, the TS1400 designation is based on the shaft horsepower, which is around 1030kW. That's around the level of pre-2016 WZ-9s. If that's what you (not you, specifically, but Turkey boosters) want to wait until 2025 for - with no guarantee that it will be ready by then - that's up to you, but better is already available to you.

The power to weight ratio of T-129 with CTS-400 (1350 shp) is unrivalled by any Chinese program. The reliability of US/British engine in high/hot and dusty weather conditions were proven and There is no question about it compared to Chinese equivalent. Reliability and quality issues are not written on paper so when you step on field for trials, Your paper tiger tanks, engines, optics, helicopters continously fail against Western rivals although It was claimed to be "superior". In this aspect, The TS-1400 engine generates more than 1400 shp. It is proved in trials that core of TS-1400 generated 1500shp continuous power and 1700shp at emergency situations (up to 30 minutes) and This engine will most likely be installed on T-629 attack (6t) and T-625 utility helicopters.

Chinese turbofans (including the WZ-9 and 1600kW WZ-10 used on the Z-20) use single-crystal turbine blades, just like Western ones do

Turkish engine use single crystal, nickel coating and special cooling technologies on turbine blades so what ? In metallurgy, Russia follow the West at least 20-30 years behind so Their existing engines mostly need 3x more overhaul circulation until Western rivals get one. I don't suppose you can do anything better than what Russia does in gas turbine engines, because you have been trying to produce something based on mixture of Russian/European copy technology on gas turbine engines.

 

[Ark_Angel]

Well, I'm sure you'd know about this situation much better than I, but I still suspect there are hooks Turkey put into the deal. It's unlikely they would have borne the risk entirely. Maybe the payments are suspended until Turkey makes deliveries at whatever point in the future, but if Pakistan tried to cancel the deal entirely and go with the Z-10ME, Turkey would invoke some fine print and sue Pakistan or something like that.

I actually never considered the issue of how Pakistan was paying for this before, I just assumed it was out of pocket. I was racking my brain trying to find a technical shortcoming of the early Z-10 vs the T129, but there might never have been any. Turkey might have just offered more generous financing than China.

Your brain then probably needs some Re wiring. Z-10 was not even a paper tiger to what ATAK is. Engine performance was miserable, quality and FCS issues, unidentified vibrations in paddles during flight tests......Electronics=extremely unreliable. Mods please ban such wannabe trolls. Posters like him definitely make me want to leave Defence.pk. This guy talks non sense and acts like some professional. He’s probably a 16-17 years old kid punching above his weight selling Z-10s here...like some Rehri wala telling Pakistan go for it there is a new helicopter in the market! Seriously.......

 

[cabatli_53]

Turkey is nowhere near China when it comes to technological development.

80 million Turkey is nowhere near 1,4 billion China in terms of population indeed but When It came to competing on tech matters, Turkish products eliminated Chinese rivals by their superior performance in all aspects at trials one by one. That must be the actual reason that you are continuously talking about Turkish products against Chinese rivals in forum pages.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

I don't suppose you can do anything better than what Russia does in gas turbine engines

Re-examine your suppositions. Russia isn't some insurmountable barrier to China - copying Russian equipment was just a phase in Chinese development that has come and gone. Russia simply cannot match the awesome levels of resources and investments China can dedicate to military projects.

Your views about the world and the relations of power and technological capability are in sore need of an update. Chinese industry has reached world-class levels in all but a few key technologies.

Reliability issue are not written on paper so when you step on field for trials, Your paper tiger tanks, engines, optics, helicopters continously fail against Western rivals although It was claimed to be "superior".

The new generation of Chinese engines has been tested thoroughly in China's harshest conditions. It is more than adequate for anything Pakistan requires. Go beg America to remove its sanctions on your "Turkish" helicopter's engines.

The tests you and your Pakistani a*s-kissers are going on about happened years ago - that is eons ago given how fast China is moving. And there's nothing to indicate that even earlier Z-10s failed to perform, you just bribed Pakistan better than China did. Hey, all's fair in love and war.

Your brain then probably needs some Re wiring. Z-10 was not even a paper tiger to what ATAK is.

It's your brain that needs rewiring. It's not worthwhile to even have a conversation with you, since you support Turkey purely for religious reasons. Your opinion is worth nothing.

You don't want to go into ad hominem with me, I'll drag you and the failed state subsisting on European charity that you worship through the mud and make you cry.

Turkish engine use single crystal

There's no such thing as a Turkish engine. What you're talking about is the engine you're fantasizing about that you wish you had. The engines you actually have are American ones that are under sanctions. Your boss is cracking the whip to discipline a misbehaving servant.

 

[cabatli_53]

The tests you and your Pakistani a*s-kissers are going on about happened years ago

@The Eagle @waz

Russia simply cannot match the awesome levels of resources and investments China can dedicate to military projects.

Your views about the world and the relations of power and technological capability are in sore need of an update. Chinese industry has reached world-class levels in all but a few key technologies.

If you say so... Good for you !

There's no such thing as a Turkish engine. What you're talking about is the engine you're fantasizing about that you wish you had. The engines you actually have are American ones that are under sanctions. Your boss is cracking the whip to discipline a misbehaving servant.

It seems You have a trolling purpose in this thread so You started hitting below the belt instead of going deep details to prove How Chinese technology reached the superior level against Western rivals. I won't be inside your trolling fest. Firstly, learn basics about joining into an informative discussion while staying in respect lines, then come to discuss something serious !

 

[Ark_Angel]

Re-examine your suppositions. Russia isn't some insurmountable barrier to China - copying Russian equipment was just a phase in Chinese development that has come and gone. Russia simply cannot match the awesome levels of resources and investments China can dedicate to military projects.

Your views about the world and the relations of power and technological capability are in sore need of an update. Chinese industry has reached world-class levels in all but a few key technologies.

The new generation of Chinese engines has been tested thoroughly in China's harshest conditions. It is more than adequate for anything Pakistan requires. Go beg America to remove its sanctions on your "Turkish" helicopter's engines.

The tests you and your Pakistani a*s-kissers are going on about happened years ago - that is eons ago given how fast China is moving. And there's nothing to indicate that even earlier Z-10s failed to perform, you just bribed Pakistan better than China did. Hey, all's fair in love and war.

It's your brain that needs rewiring. It's not worthwhile to even have a conversation with you, since you support Turkey purely for religious reasons. Your opinion is worth nothing.

You don't want to go into ad hominem with me, I'll drag you and the failed state subsisting on European charity that you worship through the mud and make you cry.

There's no such thing as a Turkish engine. What you're talking about is the engine you're fantasizing about that you wish you had. The engines you actually have are American ones that are under sanctions. Your boss is cracking the whip to discipline a misbehaving servant.

Listen kid...do yourself a favour. Stop bull shitting and go back to where you came from. This forum already has a lot of trolls. One less Bull Shit*er would save a lot of pain for the mods. And yeah good luck with your B.S marketing campaign I wish the Chinese Helo was good as your advertising but unfortunately Reality can bite u in the a**. Don’t talk about my religious beliefs. You don’t want to go there my friend. Already the world is battling China Virus or KungFlu as the people here call it. Don’t make me get started. Peace now.
*Z-10 is unreliable and trash*.
Period. You can have your bat soup now. It might be ready by the time you read this post.
cheers.

 

[Blacklight]

Listen kid...do yourself a favour. Stop bull shitting and go back to where you came from. This forum already has a lot of trolls. One less Bull Shit*er would save a lot of pain for the mods. And yeah good luck with your B.S marketing campaign I wish the Chinese Helo was good as your advertising but unfortunately Reality can bite u in the a**. Don’t talk about my religious beliefs. You don’t want to go there my friend. Already the world is battling China Virus or KungFlu as the people here call it. Don’t make me get started. Peace now.
*Z-10 is unreliable and trash*.
Period. You can have your bat soup now. It might be ready by the time you read this post.
cheers.

I would be interested to read further on this, any links?

Because this was a relatively large export order, and to notable customer, the Turks did go out of their way to back the deal. Prior to this contract, Turkey didn't have an export loan program for defence, so the Turkish Gov't footed one to Pakistan using its own national treasury. Moreover, the payments are broken into installments for 5-10 years, and that too contingent on delivery.

Whatever technical or political issues of the T129, the Turks offered a deal that could fit within Pakistan's constraints and requirements. And yes, the Turks bore the full risk -- they even gave their written word in the contract that securing the engines wasn't a problem, and that if it did become one, Pakistan can renege. This is why Pakistan can move quickly to an alternative, it clearly has freed-up cash (however limited).

Sir, in your opinion if the Turkish helo doesn't materialize, then what options do we have?