New Modified Z-10ME Attack Helicopter

[Pakistani Fighter]

AR-10 missile. It's a heavy missile not meant for foot soldier but to be equipped for Helo, armour car or ATGM killer vehicle.

10km max range it has?

 

[Turan09]

There is no Turkish engine. Boasting about US engines isn't really relevant here. One has to be less nationalistic and more pragmatic and realistic.

If China and Russia are 20 years behind, Turkey is 40 years behind in engine technology. China today has the world's best titanium 3d printers, at a class superior to even the US.

Pakistan is well aware of Chinese and Turkish deficiencies. Now if you let the jingoism go and just look at Pak procurement, it has by far bought Chinese equipment far more than anything remotely Turkish.

One can see the clear deficiency in Turkish engineering with the A-129. Just trying to make some minor improvements on this has lead Turkey to create and out of balance product that needs dead weight at the back.

It is easy to make big speeches and boasts but reality is different.

You can say it about Helicopter technology... You can say it for warships, You can say it about ASELPOD... but still Pakistan wants to have every one of them...
We joined this race a little bit late, but we close the gap fast... This will be the same for the engines.
PS; ATAK is much more different than A129... Engine is different, Avionics, Pods..., Rotor numbers, it is all different... Don't confuse it with JF17.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

As I see it and IMHO, Chinese technology for the most part is a derivative or improvement over first Russian and then European technologies or on access, through various ways and means, to US technology.


Access to Russian tech has been for most part, available except for a period between late fifties till late seventies. Access to critical European technologies were easily available to China till the late eighties. Access to some US technologies were gained through commercial or co production contracts, intellectual exchanges of information through Chinese diaspora living abroad in US and some industrial espionage and other means.


Since the late eighties, this access has started to dry up for the Chinese when the realization in both Europe and US that China is not just a new market opportunity but also real competitor. Exchange of personnel went down, student visas became limited or allowed for study in non-restricted fields and technologies.


China built a lot of its technological base on the skill set imported by skilled expat coming back to work for the mother country after getting higher education in US and or working there in organization of strategic nature (India is doing the same since mid nineties).


On the other hand, Turkey has had access to both European and US critical technologies that are not open to Chinese at this point in time, till very recently.


Turks have done the same, take the technology and establish in country production lines but with a basic difference, as compared to China, the production & improvement of the product was done in conjunction with Original Equipment Manufacturer! And in some cases the improvement done by the Turks was shared with the OEM and royalties were shared. Do remember we did that with Exocest missile and its air launched version.


In other cases, Turkey bought the intellectual rights (being a NATO member) of the basic product line. This gave them a huge boost, and their learning curve was greatly reduced.


Turkish companies also participated as JV partners in joint development programs. While China was an outsourced component manufacturers for subassemblies for example of commercial aircraft parts.


Participation in multinational exercises, joint training, exchange programs, cross training of individuals of armed forces personnel also boosted the exposure to new emerging methods and technologies. This all helped build up the knowledge base of the Turks as compared to those of the Chinese.


Therefore, in light of the above, I for one feel that Turks have more up to date access to western technologies as compared to the Chinese.


Having said that, it does not mean that the Chinese Technology is obsolete or inferior, it just means that the Chinese product will require a lot more iterations to come up to our standards as compared to say that of the Turks which in theory would require lot less iterations.


However, my suggestion would be to be part of both programs (After all we were going for two different programs to equip our aviation units) and use the two different programs to our advantage.

 

[Beast]

As I see it and IMHO, Chinese technology for the most part is a derivative or improvement over first Russian and then European technologies or on access, through various ways and means, to US technology.


Access to Russian tech has been for most part, available except for a period between late fifties till late seventies. Access to critical European technologies were easily available to China till the late eighties. Access to some US technologies were gained through commercial or co production contracts, intellectual exchanges of information through Chinese diaspora living abroad in US and some industrial espionage and other means.


Since the late eighties, this access has started to dry up for the Chinese when the realization in both Europe and US that China is not just a new market opportunity but also real competitor. Exchange of personnel went down, student visas became limited or allowed for study in non-restricted fields and technologies.


China built a lot of its technological base on the skill set imported by skilled expat coming back to work for the mother country after getting higher education in US and or working there in organization of strategic nature (India is doing the same since mid nineties).


On the other hand, Turkey has had access to both European and US critical technologies that are not open to Chinese at this point in time, till very recently.


Turks have done the same, take the technology and establish in country production lines but with a basic difference, as compared to China, the production & improvement of the product was done in conjunction with Original Equipment Manufacturer! And in some cases the improvement done by the Turks was shared with the OEM and royalties were shared. Do remember we did that with Exocest missile and its air launched version.


In other cases, Turkey bought the intellectual rights (being a NATO member) of the basic product line. This gave them a huge boost, and their learning curve was greatly reduced.


Turkish companies also participated as JV partners in joint development programs. While China was an outsourced component manufacturers for subassemblies for example of commercial aircraft parts.


Participation in multinational exercises, joint training, exchange programs, cross training of individuals of armed forces personnel also boosted the exposure to new emerging methods and technologies. This all helped build up the knowledge base of the Turks as compared to those of the Chinese.


Therefore, in light of the above, I for one feel that Turks have more up to date access to western technologies as compared to the Chinese.


Having said that, it does not mean that the Chinese Technology is obsolete or inferior, it just means that the Chinese product will require a lot more iterations to come up to our standards as compared to say that of the Turks which in theory would require lot less iterations.


However, my suggestion would be to be part of both programs (After all we were going for two different programs to equip our aviation units) and use the two different programs to our advantage.

Access to western technology is one thing , muster the metallurgy is another thing. The west will never tell u how the process or complicated technology behind in making a turbine blade that can withstand 2000 degrees temp while having lifespan of 10000hrs.

For example, do turkey even have heavy hydraulic presser for aviation or heavy industries process?

 

[Aasimkhan]

I think when one looks at the combat record of fixed wing CAS vs attack helicopters, it is clear that this strange obsession with $ 20 million to $50 million attack helicopers is highly unhealthy and harmful for Pakistan.

The combat record clearly shows that fixed wing CAS has consistently been cheaper and outperformed attack helicopters. It's just a shame.

Fixed wing CAS is good but its not an alternative for attack helos flying / hovering at the flanks of an armoured formation at tree top level. Attack helo has become a necessity in the maneuver of armoured formations. CAS is also precious but not an alternative for helicopters.

Access to western technology is one thing , muster the metallurgy is another thing. The west will never tell u how the process or complicated technology behind in making a turbine blade that can withstand 2000 degrees temp while having lifespan of 10000hrs.

For example, do turkey even have heavy hydraulic presser for aviation or heavy industries process?

Metallurgy is a VERY CLOSELY GUARDED SECRET in the world. I do not know how much of these secrets USA has shared with our Turk brothers. China has made a VERY SERIOUS and determined effort with lot of effort and money to learn the INNER SECRETS of metallurgy. i sincerely pray we get out of western blackmail and there control on sensitive industry.

 

[cabatli_53]

If China and Russia are 20 years behind, Turkey is 40 years behind in engine technology. China today has the world's best titanium 3d printers, at a class superior to even the US.

Your assumption have zero value in regards to comprehend the reality of the field in this sector. I am talking for basics about West and Russia metallurgy technology. If you pay attention, I didn't even mention the current level of US because There is no match between Russia and US in their current level since F135 engines have a ~9500h TAC figure while the best engine Russia has hardly reach 3000-3500h with multiple repairing activity. In this aspect, A country like China that is trying to copy Russian knowledge is nowhere to mention among current players (Even If Chinese members claim they are superior to West and you believe on such a BS). 3D printing or titanium processing don't make a country superior in gas turbine engines.

About Turkey, Turkish institutes like TEI, Alp, KALE are the main suppliers of the most critical sections of US engines. They received the gold supplier rewards. Today, US F22 fighters have even been flying with the components produced by these institutes. No need to mention large turbofan engine components produced for Boeing and Airbus civilian airliners. KALE is one of the most critical supplier of titanium and nickel processes of F135 engines powering F35 fighters. TEI is manufacturing %70 of General electric T700 turboshaft engines (2000+shp) including most critical turbine components and these engines powering T70 helicopters are called as T700-TEI-701D at international market. In addition to 1500shp TS-1400 engine, TEI is developing a new turboshaft called TS-3000 (3000shp) simultaneously. New engine will power up Heavy class attack helicopter and 10t utility helicopter programs. I believe you will now understand Who is 40 years behind in engine technology.

This image summarize the tech gap between Russia and US well. Within 30 years time frame, Mig-29 needs to change around three 2xRD-33 engines and three turbine repairing activity in each circle while F-16 flies only with one obsolete (1980 made) F-100-PW-229 engines with totally 2 repairing activity in overall life circle.

 

[Ark_Angel]

I know you prefer localization and joint development to just purchasing equipment - it's what I advocated for China as well when it was coming up, so I would be a hypocrite if I thought less of others for doing it. Having said that the risks of buying from China are far lower than buying from the West: no inflated prices, no political strings, no hassles.

Absent your preferred option, in terms of performance, reliability, and political security the Z-10ME is the best choice.

Inflated Prices= Chinese manufacturers have been ripping off Pakistani Armed Forces day in and day out. The Manufacturers deal with Pakistan as a commercial market with zero subsidy or flexibly. Heck Harbin even raised the Price of Z-9s for a new batch that the Navy was considering quoting it close to what otherwise in the market we can get from a Reputed European manufacturer. The only advantage is political security and the manufacturers ability to deliver.

 

[cabatli_53]

Pakistan is well aware of Chinese and Turkish deficiencies. Now if you let the jingoism go and just look at Pak procurement, it has by far bought Chinese equipment far more than anything remotely Turkish.

Pakistan is unfortunately driven into the arms of China cause of Western arrogancy and geopolitic matters with India so The procurements were mostly done by considering the factors/sanctions Pakistan faces. China systematically benefits from this situation to get more deal from Pakistan. Even in this situation, Pakistan is seeking ways to diversify the procurements not to solely rely on cheap and inferior Chinese products. In this aspect, Instead of counting the number of Chinese equipments bought by Pakistan, I advice you to check the number of failures Chinese products met when they joined into a fair competition with Western equivalents. This will give you more clue to understand the reality instead of spreading assumptions based on nothing. Their Kovit-19 test kits were not even worked properly so many European countries stoped using them. They have great potential indeed but they need more time to get mature instead of bragging with superiority dreams 24/7 in forum pages.

 

[LKJ86]

Pakistan is unfortunately driven into the arms of China cause of Western arrogancy and geopolitic matters with India so The procurements were mostly done by considering the factors/sanctions Pakistan faces. China systematically benefits from this situation to get more deal from Pakistan. Even in this situation, Pakistan is seeking ways to diversify the procurements not to solely rely on cheap and inferior Chinese products. In this aspect, Instead of counting the number of Chinese equipments bought by Pakistan with mostly politic reasons, I advice you to check the number of failures Chinese products met when they joined into a fair competition with Western equivalents. This will give you more clue to understand the reality instead of spreading assumptions based on nothing. Their Kovit-19 test kits were even sent back to China by many European countries. They need more time to get mature instead of bragging with superiority dreams in forum pages.

Are you comparing China with the whole west?
Very much appreciate

 

[cabatli_53]

Are you comparing China with the whole west?
Very much appreciate

Ask this to your compatriots who claim Chinese engine tech is superior to West. I just put the stones into the place where they should be. Dreaming /Imagination is important for innovation but you should not contradict with reality of the time.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Inflated Prices= Chinese manufacturers have been ripping off Pakistani Armed Forces day in and day out.

I don't see where China has ever ripped off Pakistan. I see Turkey ripping off Pakistan by fraudulently claiming it can supply an attack helicopter and then leaving Pakistan high and dry.

First people make fun of "cheap Chinese hurr durr durf", then when China raises its quality and price they whine and complain. Tough luck for you that there's no magic in the world - if you want quality you're going to have to pay for it. Even with the higher prices, China still offers the best deal around: Audi quality for Hyundai prices.

We've already established that Turkey won Pakistan's helicopter bid because it was willing to offer extraordinarily generous financing terms. The past variants of the Z-10 were beasts, the Z-10ME is just a monster - consider yourself fortunate you have the opportunity to buy it.

Having said that, it does not mean that the Chinese Technology is obsolete or inferior, it just means that the Chinese product will require a lot more iterations to come up to our standards as compared to say that of the Turks which in theory would require lot less iterations.

Your analysis ignores a crucial factor: indigenous advancement and innovation. The access China had to foreign technology was used as a base on which to develop its own indigenous technology. Decades later China reached parity with certain Western technologies - among them turboshaft engines. There's still more work to be done to close the gap in other technologies like the most advanced generation of turbofans, but I'm confident that will be accomplished in the years to come.

Turkey is nothing like that. Turkey is wholly dependent on European largesse because it has zero indigenous research and development capacity. Europe feels secure sharing its technology with Turkey because it knows Turkey can learn nothing from it. It's terrified of sharing technology with China because it knows China's fearsome capacity to absorb and indigenize technology very well.

Are you comparing China with the whole west?
Very much appreciate

I wouldn't bother with him. He's just a parrot with no understanding of how far China has advanced, all he has is his "cheap Chinese" insults which he parrots from Europeans. It brings to mind a joke: How many Turks does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one, as long as there's a European beside him to show him how to do it.

The thought of Turkey innovating or manufacturing anything indigenously is hilarious. All Turkish companies are is a storefront for relabelling European technology. All their "engineers" do is fetch coffee for European and American engineers. They'll lose even that thanks to their wannabe sultan's moronic foreign policy. They've already been flushed out of the F-35 program and that's just the first step in their complete rejection by the West.

The funnier thing is this "independent" foreign policy (that amounted to nothing more than giving Russia the opportunity to slap Turkey around) was driven not by any desire for independence, but by Turkey's prior rejection by the EU. In every Turk's heart is a burning desire to be accepted by Europeans as European. You can see a manifestation of this psychology here with their worship of European technology.

Ask it to your compatriots who claims Chinese engine tech is superior to West.

I never claimed Chinese engines are superior to Western ones, I said Chinese turboshafts have reached parity with Western ones. That you don't understand English isn't my problem. Do what you people always do and go ask a European to explain what I wrote to you.

 

[Tipu7]

No disrespect intended but I myself consider it a very childish behavior to compare the dynamics of two very different nation-states based merely upon the capability of their defense products. For Pakistan, China and Turkey cannot be replaced, in some departments China is better and in some Turkey is better.

 

[mudas777]

Both countries are brothers to us and stood by us through thick and thin and its our choice and our procurement system decides what's suitable for our needs and price wise. Its a helicopter thread and not a two gentlemen ego's settling forum so lets move on. Please take your arguments elsewhere and its getting boring.

 

[cabatli_53]

No disrespect intended but I myself consider it a very childish behavior to compare the dynamics of two very different nation-states based merely upon the capability of their defense products. For Pakistan, China and Turkey cannot be replaced, in some departments China is better and in some Turkey is better.

The actual problem is; some Chinese members with superiority complex don’t not want to accept the fact that they are competing with Western countries including Turkey in some markets and whenever they joined into a fair competition, Their products were wipen out of the competition as a result of their poor performances in trials. I can give lots of examples If It is needed. Noone claims Turkey is perfect in all aspects but I am talking about some proven field reality as a response to what some chinese members voiced about Turkish programs. Furthermore, Their super power ego cause them to create mental barriers not to accept some known facts taken in trials so they are taking these failures as personnal in order to attack on the members reminding the place they should stop. Attention please, They mostly fill the thread with assertive claims without sharing any serious source or introducing trial results. For exm; They copied the US BlackHawk and then came up with a claim that their copy is superior to original. They are trying to develop gas turbine engines by considering Russian engines as a base but claiming that they are on par with West in this field. That is How their “superior” logic works. When they met some reality backed by some images/sources, Same guys suddenly prefer trolling by using politic subjects, EU membership and/or totally false claims about Turkish programs. In your last comment, you said: “some departments Turkey is better” I believe this sentence will certainly cause them some itching for example because These guys think that Turkey is almost zero in engineering matters so they have an indigestion problem in their minds when they lost against a country with “no knowledge” and so They are insulting any Pakistan members, who selects Turkish products against Chinese one by considering their superior performances, as being an “asslicking/kissing Pakistani members”. That is what people witness in this thread.

 

[LKJ86]

Ask this to your compatriots who claim Chinese engine tech is superior to West.

Who? And how?