What's new

China's Z-20 helicopter surpasses Black Hawk in technologies, chief designer says

I won't be surprised, since Z-20 is a much newer product than the Black hawk, much more recent technological breakthroughs are available and can be introduced to Z-20

oh please

maybe you heard of the saying the apple never falls far from the tree

Copy-hawk is just a low quality rip off the original

bit like the Casino Carriers
 
. whether or not its politically useful (for Americans) to admit openly but Pakistani military is pro American and is independent of our alleged "Iron brotherhood" with the CCP.

we handed it over promptly because we were unofficially onboard but begged Americans not to make it public. the American Chinook that came for relief came all the way to a Pakistani base near our capital to take the rest of the things back that couldn't be packed up in the surviving Black Hawk.
the Navy SEALs blew up the downed Blackhawk as an SOP but even if they didn't it would've been returned back. despite some misgivings and distrust we continue to work together, if you know Michael Scheuer (CIA) you might have come across his views about ISI, Gen Musharraf and the Pak military.
this relationship is justified, fast forward few years later the American resident "guests" at a particular Pakistani airforce base (holding the F-16 block 52 ) brought sweets with broad smiles on their faces when their American made F-16 downed the Russian top of the line fighter jet dubbed "Raptor of the East" by your new found chums :) as those AMRAAMS came handy to deflate the inflated Vegetarian balloon.

the Chinook story is conveniently forgotten to ensure that the story holds about Pakistani leadership ignorance. but still that didn't help since the Pakistani Taliban took revenge on Pakistan (for its involvement in this operation) by killing 100+ Pakistanis almost every day for over a year including attacks on Pakistani military bases.


easy now. don't feel so butt hurt for Imran Khan. he is sorted and will make a deal with establishment through President or the electables still in his party.

I'm not into personality worship, as typical Pakistanis. However, he was the only viable option compared to descendants of Amristar whore house workers. Besides that, the rest of the Pak Army military history is on full display for one to judge.

This is not to say the neighbors to our East are any better.
 
Last edited:
I'm not into personality worship, as typical Pakistanis. However, he was the only viable option compared to descendants of Amristar whore house workers. Besides that, the rest of the Pak Army military history is on full display for one to judge.

This is not to say the neighbors to our East are any better.
forget whataboutism there is no argument there about the rest.
its such a tragedy that Imran's only qualification is that his rivals are seasoned and hardcore thieves.
 
The Z-20 is a fourth-generation helicopter that has many technologies the Black Hawk does not have, including a fly-by-wire flight control system, which is a typical characteristic to make a helicopter ranking among the fourth generation, Deng said.



Another @beijingwalker special, How does Deng expect the BlackHawk to operate autonomous without fly-by-wire?
BTW, Blackhawks got FBW in 2011.

This Deng guys isn't very bright, have the Chinese stopped conducting IQ tests before they hire?

 
470a58a1-bbc9-4f8a-aa13-b557357b2adb.jpeg


"It is not [the Z-20] that has copied the Black Hawk, it is the Z-20 that has surpassed the Black Hawk," Deng said.
What's that supposed to mean ??
 
Where can I read on his views?
he was head of Bin laden detection unit in CIA.
various videos of him out there some have been deleted on youtube now.
he defended Pakistan and ISI on many occasions. defended the support of Gen Musharraf during war on terror on CNN, Fox News etc.
he is staunch American patriot. criticizes Israel and Saudis as well as merican world wide policing policy.
he was cancelled on many platforms and mainstream news channels due to his criticism of Israel.
 
. whether or not its politically useful (for Americans) to admit openly but Pakistani military is pro American and is independent of our alleged "Iron brotherhood" with the CCP.

we handed it over promptly because we were unofficially onboard but begged Americans not to make it public. the American Chinook that came for relief came all the way to a Pakistani base near our capital to take the rest of the things back that couldn't be packed up in the surviving Black Hawk.
the Navy SEALs blew up the downed Blackhawk as an SOP but even if they didn't it would've been returned back. despite some misgivings and distrust we continue to work together, if you know Michael Scheuer (CIA) you might have come across his views about ISI, Gen Musharraf and the Pak military.
this relationship is justified, fast forward few years later the American resident "guests" at a particular Pakistani airforce base (holding the F-16 block 52 ) brought sweets with broad smiles on their faces when their American made F-16 downed the Russian top of the line fighter jet dubbed "Raptor of the East" by your new found chums :) as those AMRAAMS came handy to deflate the inflated Vegetarian balloon.

the Chinook story is conveniently forgotten to ensure that the story holds about Pakistani leadership ignorance. but still that didn't help since the Pakistani Taliban took revenge on Pakistan (for its involvement in this operation) by killing 100+ Pakistanis almost every day for over a year including attacks on Pakistani military bases.


easy now. don't feel so butt hurt for Imran Khan. he is sorted and will make a deal with establishment through President or the electables still in his party.
Hmm....I would have thought that gotta have some political or military bargain chip for Pakistan, or at least China will pressure Pakistan to have them take a look before handing it back. I mean if this chopper went down in the UK, they would have us jump thru hoops before we get them back....

From the operational stand point, people know how this work will know this operation had not crew in the Pakistani because if they are, OPSEC aside (which dictate they told nobody but NTK people) the use of stealth chopper mean they need to get in and out undetected. Most of the time if they do direct action oversea, they will still notify the host at the last minute, they would have just use normal chinook or blackhawk for this, using stealth means they don't want anyone, like ANYONE to know. So it's illogical to inform the Pakistani if they are also using stealth. Whether or not is it because of OPSEC issue or other issue, I am not going to guess because I don't know.

Judging from what you and the other Pakistani said and my personal experience dealing with Pakistani and ISI, I think the situation is more or less like Philippine. The administration doesn't like us but the military really depends on the working relationship with the US military, when I was in Afghanistan, whenever we met with Pakistani official, they are always more accommodating than the others, but they don't want people to see them with us. One time I was asked to put on Civilian clothes because they said the area wasn't too keen on seeing American.

I do know Michael Scheuer is, and his view on ISI . Well, I can tell you this, if you are in intel, your hands are ALWAYS dirty. Intelligence unit unlike normal regular unit, you don't really have a clear goal, nobody will tell you what to do, and you have to get there yourself, but with that, you also wasn't bound by any rules. Which mean you are more likely to play dirty to get to where you want to get to. For example, people ask me was Abu Ghraib real? Or do we really torture these people. Even people served or serving in the military ask me this. Because they really don't know how that side of intel works. Abu Ghraib is not normal, because they amplified what we do in term of field craft, if that camp was run by CIA or DIA operative instead of power-hungry MPs. Things are going to be a bit different. Abu Ghraib is a bunch of sick people enjoy torturing people because they do and simply, they can. That said, what they do is the SOP before we talk to the prisoner, Like put them in a stress position, or psychological "Enhancement" (ie playing Metal Music loud) or Sleep deprivation, those are all standard playbook for a CIA station technique. They just don't do it to them naked or have them acted sexually, that have no value at all other than humiliate the subject.

On the other hand, while I cannot tell you how this work, but politically, CIA operation don't just depends on one person, There is a group of people have numerous meeting to decide what to do in regard to an entire area. That group of people would have all sort of view on them, some would have close to Scheuer view, some would have opposite, and some will have more or less neutral. That's how operation was dictated. Let's just leave it at that.
 
The administration doesn't like us but the military really depends on the working relationship with the US military,
Boss you nailed it. specially during the Obama administration the hostilities were unnaturally high . the Salala attack is one of those tragedies that did put a scar on relationship and ever since any senior American officer visiting our GHQ is brought to a memorial to pay respect and silently remind that even if there was some deliberate misleading request by ANA , the Americans knew better that the check posts across were not meant for American allies and had no weapons or means to put anyone in danger who were conducting a search operation well beyond the small weapons in the check post.

Apart from that we generally have had a hard time with a Democrats government. ..but operationally the cooperation and interaction has continued.
the courier for example who led you to the compound was initially identified and passed on by ISI to their counterparts s a person of interest.
what was unknown to ISI was that the same person had been flagged outside of Pakistan already and helped in connecting the dots. whether or not that information was shared back with ISI is unknown but the movie and the media states that it wasn't.

back to the topic.
as you mentioned Z-20 is based on the 1970s blackhawk design, it does give away a vintage look.,
I am not taking away Chinese's engineering prowess, one has to have the means (knowledge and resources) to copy a technology and even if its 60 to 70% capable of its original Western version then its job well done.


Z-20_Airshow_China_2022_ground.jpg
 
On the other hand, while I cannot tell you how this work, but politically, CIA operation don't just depends on one person, There is a group of people have numerous meeting to decide what to do in regard to an entire area. That group of people would have all sort of view on them, some would have close to Scheuer view, some would have opposite, and some will have more or less neutral. That's how operation was dictated. Let's just leave it at that.
your post reminds me of a slain retired officer nicknamed Col Imam (by Mujahideen). back in the days of Jihad against the Soviets he worked together with American covert ops inside Afghanistan. during the 2000s after he was retired he was baited into a trap and executed in front of the camera by the Pakistani Taliban as a revenge for Pak military cooperation with Americans. after his death I came across a tribute by an American veteran who recalled his days working with Colonel Imam. the silent mutual respect exists no doubt.
will take this discussion elsewhere but lol my original nonserious post took the thread off tangent here. will continue somewhere else you take care.
 
Well, it may be true to the Blackhawk I flew on back in the early 2000s or the one that Afghan use that was built on 1987. (That's the same batch we sold to China before Tiananmen Square incident).

These folks have no idea what a Modern Blackhawk (or straightly speaking, Pavehawk) can do. I can't say much either but I can tell you, Pavehawk is a CSAR chopper, which mean it was supposed to used in high enemy activities environment and expected to survive alone without air cover and behind enemy line....

On the other hand, do China even have a CSAR unit that can do that? I don't know...
Yes yes...everything western is proven and works. We saw you takeoff in the dark of the night from kabul and even the Afghan garrison commander didn't realise you left. Amazing stealth.

Could China achieve such stealth. Hell no.
 
Boss you nailed it. specially during the Obama administration the hostilities were unnaturally high . the Salala attack is one of those tragedies that did put a scar on relationship and ever since any senior American officer visiting our GHQ is brought to a memorial to pay respect and silently remind that even if there was some deliberate misleading request by ANA , the Americans knew better that the check posts across were not meant for American allies and had no weapons or means to put anyone in danger who were conducting a search operation well beyond the small weapons in the check post.

Apart from that we generally have had a hard time with a Democrats government. ..but operationally the cooperation and interaction has continued.
the courier for example who led you to the compound was initially identified and passed on by ISI to their counterparts s a person of interest.
what was unknown to ISI was that the same person had been flagged outside of Pakistan already and helped in connecting the dots. whether or not that information was shared back with ISI is unknown but the movie and the media states that it wasn't.

back to the topic.
as you mentioned Z-20 is based on the 1970s blackhawk design, it does give away a vintage look.,
I am not taking away Chinese's engineering prowess, one has to have the means (knowledge and resources) to copy a technology and even if its 60 to 70% capable of its original Western version then its job well done.


Z-20_Airshow_China_2022_ground.jpg
Was writing a bunch of response, but deleted them because as you said, we are going off of a tangent here. I will just say this instead. I know a lot of people in your country think we don't have a good working relationship or sometime discriminate against Muslim, because well, that's how our media portray and they tend to paint Muslim that way. There exists mutual respect between American and Pakistani in most domain and especially so when you are involved or work together one time or another, most Pakistani I know was amaze that I hold that liberal view on Pakistan, which is seen as an outliner if we use Western Media as a yard stick, to that I told them your first problem is using the western media view as a yardstick. I will just leave it at that.

Back on topic

It takes more than resource, time and know how to turn this

BH-first-flight--10-17-74-1.jpg

First-Flight-of-Production-BLACK-HAWK-No-1-Oct-17-1978.jpg


Into this...


454377529_6918f3da08_o.jpg


The most important thing is user input, if we just use the Blackhawk as they were back in 1970, we will not have PAVEHAWK, or another Blackhawk derivative like Romeo Hawk or Jayhawk. This has hundreds if not thousands of hours of user input to finetune this tech and countless amount of sacrifice by the 160SOAR, 55th Special Rescue Squadron and the PJs, those input is what make this Pavehawk tick today, even small things like the "Rat cage" on the pilot seat come from Wolcott death because his leg got jammed in the control console and cannot remove his body unless we took down the entire Blackhawk around him. That's the kind of input that make this bird great today. It takes a person who ride on it, got shot to shit and then live to tell the tale or sometime not in some case to improve. This cannot be done by research or any sort of resource.

The PLA Z-20 may be a capable Medium Transport helo, but to upgrade from that, you need decade of use, and countless sacrifice, to make it great, and it's not something we can just say on an open forum like that.

your post reminds me of a slain retired officer nicknamed Col Imam (by Mujahideen). back in the days of Jihad against the Soviets he worked together with American covert ops inside Afghanistan. during the 2000s after he was retired he was baited into a trap and executed in front of the camera by the Pakistani Taliban as a revenge for Pak military cooperation with Americans. after his death I came across a tribute by an American veteran who recalled his days working with Colonel Imam. the silent mutual respect exists no doubt.
will take this discussion elsewhere but lol my original nonserious post took the thread off tangent here. will continue somewhere else you take care.
lol, you got to love how we can go off topic in a sensible subject instead of just go right into trolling......:p:

I mean sure, I can talk more about that if you want, just open a thread and quote me and I will be there when I am online.
 
Yes yes...everything western is proven and works. We saw you takeoff in the dark of the night from kabul and even the Afghan garrison commander didn't realise you left. Amazing stealth.

Could China achieve such stealth. Hell no.
I will give you an "A" for bravery on talking shit when you know nothing about the shit you are talking about.

Sure, US lose in Afghan, US tech is Bullshit, I have no problem for you to believe that. I have no problem our adversary to believe that, I don't work for Sikorsky sales division, I don't have commission for each Blackhawk sold. In fact, as an end user, please do go ahead and believe it.

LOL :lol: :lol:
 
yes ... in other words. its Blackhawk that copied the Chinese Design,. I mean the Earth axes do change. and Mega Solar flares do cause massive disruption on Earth Life
The key point is not copy, the key point is China produced a blackhawk cheaper and better than US blackhawk.

2640hp per engine, 5 blade composite rotor blade. Fully digital and modernized cockpit with full digital flyby wire. Something missing from US blackhawk.


oh please

maybe you heard of the saying the apple never falls far from the tree

Copy-hawk is just a low quality rip off the original

bit like the Casino Carriers
Like F-7PG in the 90/2000s is low quality copy compare to original Mig-21PF produced in the 1960s?

Copy always surpass original in capabilities and usage.
 
No need to reinvent the wheel by wasting time and money creating a brand new weapon with all the pitfalls that come with it when you can take a proven design and improve upon it to strengthen the PLA war fighting capabilities.

China has mastered the art of taking a proven design and improving it. When an official confirms it, it has far more credibility than wannabe PDF ‘experts’.

Are Chinese J-11 and J-16 better than Russian flankers? Probably

Are Chinese Z-20 better than American Blackhawk? Probably
 

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom