New Charge Sheet Links Tablighi Jamaat & Deoband to Delhi Riots

[Arulmozhi Varman]

Muslim demographic control especially as a voting block is a part of RSS ideology, are you naïve or acting one?

Yeah, then everyone with say, 2011 documents is a citizen, that seems pretty fair deal for "at least future", no?

My position is quite clear - no CAA as it's like putting religion above country.

Just take away their citizenship and reduce them as stateless residents in India.

First one is pretty comical video

CAA is necessary for protection of minorities in other countries.
On NRC However I like the point. Make 2011 as the cut off point. That should clear most fear.

I don't understand much Hindi anyway.

 

[jaatram]

Get every caretaker of masjid under surveillance and the entire country will e peaceful.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

This has been explained before. Some will be sent to detention camps, but for most, they will just become stateless.

This is how it will pan out.

Step 1. NPR is rolled out
Step 2. District Officer will add a "D" for Doubtful on certain names of people who they suspect to not be Indians.
Step 3. NRC will be rolled out.
Step 4. Those with a "D" on their names, will be required to prove citizenship. If Assam is any example, acceptance of documents will be arbitrary and uneven.
Step 5. Those unable to prove citizenship or are excluded from NRC, will be ineligible for any other government issued documents. If you held a drivers license, it will no longer be renewed. With lack of official documents, people will be unable to enroll in schools, conduct official or economic transactions, including buying or selling of properties. You will have millions of people who will then automatically become subjects of the informal economy, with no prospect of advancement.

Notable Points:
1. NRC is a pointless exercise where one governmental agency will be entrusted to evaluate documents issued by other government agencies. I have never seen a worse form of wasteful expenditure and exercise, ever.
2. Most Hindus will never be asked for documents, since their name will never be marked as "D"
3. Most Muslims will be included in the "D" category and required to prove their citizenship. This is where we suspect most of the discrimination will take place, at the District Officer level in Step 2 above.
4. The CAA provides an escape clause for any non-Muslim entrapped by the NRC exercise. The law is cleverly written to modify sections of the Entry in India Act and Passport Act.

If you want to understand more, read up on how the Tamils in Sri Lanka were subjected to a similar exercise in the 1950s, that led to the birth of Tamil separatism and the LTTE. Another more recent example is the Rohingyas in Burma.

While the discriminatory is possible India needs at some point of time needs NRC. Just cos Bengalis have outgrown their land mass we cannot accommodate them.
As @Naofumi suggested an cut off date of 2011 will calm nerves. So atleast in future we have an sense of who is citizen and who is not. Won't lead to hate politics with respect to illegal migrants.

 

[Naofumi]

On NRC However I like the point. Make 2011 as the cut off point. That should clear most fear.

This would defeat the purpose of CAA whose own cut-off date is 2014 - it will only provide 3 years of benefit for being Hindu.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

This would defeat the purpose of CAA whose own cut-off date is 2014 - it will only provide 3 years of benefit for being Hindu.

Terminologies of law can always be modified.

 

[Joe Shearer]

If this had been the quality of your posts earlier, a great deal of high blood pressure would have been avoided.

I type from my mobile. Sometimes the new AI picks the most commonly used words and it comes as suggestions especially whenever I quote something.
I meant to say Bangladesh instead of migrants in that particular sentence. I meant to say if all illegals had been Muslims the govt wouldn't have even bothered to bring up CAA in the first place. This law was bought to protect Hindu illegal migrants who through are BJP's biggest votebanks. While protestors in Assam do not want anyone to get to stay there, that's not what BJP thinks. I am not saying throw the Muslims out. It would be impossible to throw anyone out after 20-30 years of staying in the country even if they are illegals. I never said that.

First, I was unwilling to believe that you were suggesting that this bill was brought in to allow the BJP to bring in Hindu illegal migrants. But you are. So on looking at what you are saying with a new look, it seems to me that you are neither supporting nor opposing the real situation but you are interested in reporting reality.

This reality: what is it? It is that the Assamese want all the illegals out. It is that the section of the Assamese themselves that are in power now, through an opportunistic use of the BJP and its manipulative power, want to retain the Hindu illegals, but reject the Muslim illegals.It is that throwing the Muslims out will not be easy; not because what @Arulmozhi Varman says is correct, that someone who has been here for 20 to 30 years cannot be thrown out, that it is impossible, but because there is no implementation of 'throwing out' is possible, or even practical.

Let us move to the next step in the argument.

As for support of local people, that will be known in the next Assam elections. It's not far away.

Unfortunately this is a movable feast. What the electorate thought some years ago, what it thought at the time of the last elections, and what it thought after the perceived betrayal over the issue of the NRC and the results of the commission that decided citizenship eligibility are three different things.

Not sure whether you choose to ignore the points I make or genuinely do not understand. I was pretty clear. The first para deals why the BJP brought in CAA, mainly to protect one community. Next one deals with NRC, which many fear is linked to the CAA. NRC, on which both INC and BJP feel it's required.

Now the point about your clinical review of the reasons for the introduction of the CAA is understood. It was to protect the Hindus.

Next the point about the NRC. You say that is something on which both the INC and the BJP are agreed. Some confusion here: were you referring to the NRC peculiar to Assam and the Assam problem, or were you referring to the NRC on the national level that is contemplated for the near future?

As for third side, what options do they have? Let's say out of 20-22 crore Muslims, 2-3 crores doesn't have valid documents. Do anyone think they will be sent to detention centres? Who will fund it? India will be placed under sanctions and strife will overcome this nation.

We have seen these idiots take one rash and disastrous step after another. What gives us the confidence to think that we can safely dismiss the possibility of their declaring, say, between 2 and 3 crores of Muslims as non-citizens of India? And worse - then doing something disastrous with these newly-discovered non-citizens?

BJP has done things which they promised in their manifesto. They didn't promise to disenfranchise Muslims. I am sure there are lots of reasonable leaders other an AS to steer the party of such unnecessary controversies.

They didn't promise to demonetise either.

There is fear and then there is fear mongering. BJP and Congress are experts at it.

So you have never ever read any news of BD migrants found in southern states and deported?

Have you? Can you give us some examples?

Just said even genuine Bengali migrants in other states will be harrased wrt CAA.

That has already started with a tent camp in Bengaluru. Are you making the harrassment of genuine Bengali workers a positive factor in favour of the policy that the BJP is following?

To be cont.

I recognize the fear in which citizens of this nations feel they might be made disenfranchised. Nowhere did I deny such an prospect. It would be easy for you since you have taken an clear cut position that India doesn't need an CAA or an NRC.

I am of the position India needs both with ample protection process in between. That's the reason I support some points, recognise fear in some aspects and also oppose some issues. Not everything is supposed to be in binary. CAA needed for protecting minorities of our neighbouring countries (including SL) and NRC for documenting our citizens and making sure no more illegals atleast in the future.



That's a minority. The problem as Joe identified is not giving citizenship to illegal Muslims. Even if INC was there, there would be no way of illegal Bengali Muslims getting citizenship. But the fear that current citizens might be disenfranchised if NRC is linked to CAA.
Protestors and other included (me as well) has to ensure NRC is not linked to CAA and probably bring a new law for which it should be based.

 

[Naofumi]

Terminologies of law can always be modified.

Then it's great, a 2011 cutoff for NRC will be fine with everyone, we may even chose 2006 for that matter but asking 47/71 is too much.

 

[xeuss]

While the discriminatory is possible India needs at some point of time needs NRC. Just cos Bengalis have outgrown their land mass we cannot accommodate them.
As @Naofumi suggested an cut off date of 2011 will calm nerves. So atleast in future we have an sense of who is citizen and who is not. Won't lead to hate politics with respect to illegal migrants.

You already have several forms of documentation that prove citizenship in India.

What would the purpose of another government agency reviewing all those documents do?

 

[Wa Muhammada]

Those who thought that this vilification of Muslims would end at the Tableeghis, haven't learned enough.

In latest chargesheet on NE Delhi violence, Delhi police claims that one accused "was in touch with" Darul Uloom Deoband & Tablighi Jamaat and presents it as some kind of conspiracy.

Now just phone calls to members of the Tableeghi Jamaat or Deoband is evidence enough for a conspiracy.

https://www.thequint.com/news/break...-jamaat-deoband-pinjra-tod-police-chargesheet

In the mean time, all Hindus who were photographed taking part in the anti-Muslim pogrom are yet to be even arrested, and in all probability, they will never be.

There is no justice for Muslims in India.

Mera qaatil hi mera munsif hai,
Kya meray haq mein faisla dega !

these lot are deviants anyway so good riddance

 

[Soumitra]

This has been explained before. Some will be sent to detention camps, but for most, they will just become stateless.

This is how it will pan out.

Step 1. NPR is rolled out
Step 2. District Officer will add a "D" for Doubtful on certain names of people who they suspect to not be Indians.
Step 3. NRC will be rolled out.
Step 4. Those with a "D" on their names, will be required to prove citizenship. If Assam is any example, acceptance of documents will be arbitrary and uneven.
Step 5. Those unable to prove citizenship or are excluded from NRC, will be ineligible for any other government issued documents. If you held a drivers license, it will no longer be renewed. With lack of official documents, people will be unable to enroll in schools, conduct official or economic transactions, including buying or selling of properties. You will have millions of people who will then automatically become subjects of the informal economy, with no prospect of advancement.

Notable Points:
1. NRC is a pointless exercise where one governmental agency will be entrusted to evaluate documents issued by other government agencies. I have never seen a worse form of wasteful expenditure and exercise, ever.
2. Most Hindus will never be asked for documents, since their name will never be marked as "D"
3. Most Muslims will be included in the "D" category and required to prove their citizenship. This is where we suspect most of the discrimination will take place, at the District Officer level in Step 2 above.
4. The CAA provides an escape clause for any non-Muslim entrapped by the NRC exercise. The law is cleverly written to modify sections of the Entry in India Act and Passport Act.

If you want to understand more, read up on how the Tamils in Sri Lanka were subjected to a similar exercise in the 1950s, that led to the birth of Tamil separatism and the LTTE. Another more recent example is the Rohingyas in Burma.

In your "brilliant" analysis you are forgetting the 2014 cutoff date. The Hindus will have to prove that they entered India from Pak, BD or Afg before 2014.If they can't prove it they also become doubtful.

Someone from the RW has proposed a solution. Let's complete CAA first. Any refugee who wants an Indian citizenship applies pro-actively before a cutoff date (say December 2021) All these people either get fast track to citizenship or are deemed illegal. After that let's hold NRC. No one can retrospectively apply. Anyone without documents will then be illegal. Make NRC a decadal exercise to periodically weed out illegals.

If an illegal can be deported do it. If not strip him of his aadhaar card, pan card drivers license.

 

[xeuss]

In your "brilliant" analysis you are forgetting the 2014 cutoff date. The Hindus will have to prove that they entered India from Pak, BD or Afg before 2014.If they can't prove it they also become doubtful.

Someone from the RW has proposed a solution. Let's complete CAA first. Any refugee who wants an Indian citizenship applies pro-actively before a cutoff date (say December 2021) All these people either get fast track to citizenship or are deemed illegal. After that let's hold NRC. No one can retrospectively apply. Anyone without documents will then be illegal. Make NRC a decadal exercise to periodically weed out illegals.

If an illegal can be deported do it. If not strip him of his aadhaar card, pan card drivers license.

If the sole purpose was giving citizenship, that could have been done by executive fiat. The Citizenship act already allows naturalization. All it needs its an official gazetted notification for people from Pak/BD/Afg and it is done.

A careful reading of the law is required to understand the sinister motive behind it. It must be read along with the amendment it makes to the Passport (entry into India act) of 1920 and Foreigners Act of 1946.

In short, it makes two important amendments. Non-Muslims will no longer be considered as illegals, and no documents will be required to prove your illegality. Now you will ask, what about the clause that introduces a cutoff date of 2014? That should be seen in conjunction with the NRC. On its own, the CAA will be difficult to implement, because it needs data, like a registry....something like an NRC.

You must also look at this in conjunction with the CAA of 2016, where only Muslim immigrants will be punished for illegal entry (it doesn't say specifically Muslims, but excludes them from the list of religions that will not longer be considered for criminalization for illegal entry)

There is also one important clause that was introduced with this law. It cites "rules contained therein". This is a strange inclusion. Rules are generally made by officials to implement laws. There is a genuine fear that now, a simple rule introduced by an IAS official in the MHA can have far reaching consequences.

This is only a short summary. I can expand more if you so desire.

 

[Soumitra]

If the sole purpose was giving citizenship, that could have been done by executive fiat. The Citizenship act already allows naturalization. All it needs its an official gazetted notification for people from Pak/BD/Afg and it is done.

A careful reading of the law is required to understand the sinister motive behind it. It must be read along with the amendment it makes to the Passport (entry into India act) of 1920 and Foreigners Act of 1946.

In short, it makes two important amendments. Non-Muslims will no longer be considered as illegals, and no documents will be required to prove your illegality. Now you will ask, what about the clause that introduces a cutoff date of 2014? That should be seen in conjunction with the NRC. On its own, the CAA will be difficult to implement, because it needs data, like a registry....something like an NRC.

You must also look at this in conjunction with the CAA of 2016, where only Muslim immigrants will be punished for illegal entry (it doesn't say specifically Muslims, but excludes them from the list of religions that will not longer be considered for criminalization for illegal entry)

There is also one important clause that was introduced with this law. It cites "rules contained therein". This is a strange inclusion. Rules are generally made by officials to implement laws. There is a genuine fear that now, a simple rule introduced by an IAS official in the MHA can have far reaching consequences.

This is only a short summary. I can expand more if you so desire.

All this is fear mongering from Congress side. You will not see it because you love to play victim

 

[xeuss]

All this is fear mongering from Congress side. You will not see it because you love to play victim

I take it that you have nothing to offer in response, so you throw out two of your favorite epitaphs - Congress and victims. Congress is a dead party. I am not sure why you give it so much importance.

The fact of the matter remains that the only reason you have supported the CAA because it is anti-Muslim.

 

[Soumitra]

Congress is a dead party. I am not sure why you give it so much importance.

It is not completely dead. It still remains the only National level alternative and we must kick it even when it is down.

The fact of the matter remains that the only reason you have supported the CAA because it is anti-Muslim.

Yes

 

[xeuss]

Yes

And then you have the gall to question why we fight the CAA?