New Charge Sheet Links Tablighi Jamaat & Deoband to Delhi Riots

[Taimoor Khan]

<sigh!> Even more childish. There is no deep state that can tell West Bengal, for instance, or Kerala, or Telangana to toe the centre's line. I have seen the video earlier, and it is crap.

I am really saddened that you oppose your thoroughly shallow understanding of the situation to the reality, even when it is presented to you with the utmost politeness. What more can I do?

Let me put it in plain English for you.

Your deep state is run by Hinduthva goons, modi and his ilks are just poster boys. This has got external dimension as well like America and Israel under right wing nut cases running their respective deep states. Look at the bigger picture if you have some common sense and the tight embrace India is in with America and Israel.

This persecution of muslims in India is a state sponsored activity. No ifs and buts.

 

[Joe Shearer]

And you don't want NRC? Try to explain something here. Even my own Muslim friends cannot explain other than saying words of equality etc.
The main contention of Muslims is that it inserts the criteria of religion. The opposition says since non Muslims are discriminated on the basis of religion they have to provide citizenship to only them and only for those who had migrated before 2014. Means it specifically targets Assam.
Now there are two sets of illegals in Assam. Muslims and non Muslim minorities majorly Hindus. One set of people told that Hindus and Muslims are like oil and water, cannot live with brethens and demanded a separate state based on religion. Fine. Bloodily given. Now BD went was very underdeveloped till the last decade and half. How is the Indian state supposed to give citizenship to people who do not believe in the idea of India or believe in their own religion supremacy. BD is again a Islamic country by law though it's more secular for a Muslim majority country.

Now help me explain how are Muslims and Hindus 'equal' in this scenario? Even if all are sent back who are more likely to get govt and local public support and which community will be disadvantaged?
Now I also agree that this protest started not when CAA was passed in parliament.AS after 2 days I guess that NRC will be implemented all over India without giving any inputs and triggered fear mechanism which is understandable and protested in a democratic way. NRC if implemented nationwide is quite tough with many communities not having anything documentary to prove their rights cutting across religion and castes.
I have my own grouse in which Lankan Tamils living in TN, Kerala, AP, Odisha haven't been provided citizenship for last 35+ years and that's a separate issue.

I can explain it very clearly and simply, if @xeuss and @Naofumi want me to, or they can do it themselves.

As a preliminary, it has nothing to do with Assam, it has everything to do with Bihar, UP, MP, Maharashtra, Telangana, Tamil Nadu and Kerala.

But more later.

when did I generalise any group as a group with depredations?

You generalised the Coastal and Seema Telugus as aggrieved. I understand that adding the 'with depredations' phrase above is intended to get you off the hook, but it is a rather superficial dodge.

Let me put it in plain English for you.

Your deep state is run by Hinduthva goons, modi and his ilks are just poster boys. This has got external dimension as well like America and Israel under right wing nut cases running their respective deep states. Look at the bigger picture if you have some common sense and the tight embrace India is in with America and Israel.

This persecution of muslims in India is a state sponsored activity. No ifs and buts.

Let me put it simply to you: it isn't.

 

[Cliftonite]

Get your thoughts consistent dude.

I can express two thoughts at different times and situations you know. I can express how I feel Bangladesh and Pakistan should never have been one state from the start because of the obvious political ramifications and I can, as a way of expression, state how I feel a loss at not having an opportunity to learn about Bengali culture. Idiomatic expression go look it up.

And seriously how invested are you in me to go digging over my posts to prove some silly point? What a Star Plus saas bahu wali harkat.

 

[xeuss]

I can explain it very clearly and simply, if @xeuss and @Naofumi want me to, or they can do it themselves.

You can do it. You will do a better job than us anyway.

 

[Vasudhaika]

You generalised the Coastal and Seema Telugus as aggrieved. I understand that adding the 'with depredations' phrase above is intended to get you off the hook, but it is a rather superficial dodge.

calling a group 'aggrieved' (while citing reasons) is same as calling them 'people with depredations'? Come on sir ji, you're better than this.

 

[Joe Shearer]

calling a group 'aggrieved' (while citing reasons) is same as calling them 'people with depredations'? Come on sir ji, you're better than this.

I am. If you aggregate a group, in this case, a linguistic group, and present them as homogeneous, with no differences or distinctions, it does not matter what the grievance might be, but it is a spurious aggregate. Or it is not. You cannot have one rule for one criterion (but the same set of people) and another rule for another criterion (and still the same set).

Good enough, Sir?

Somehow I feel I should not have indulged in loose talk. Like pointing out that there were too many dormant accounts from 2014 to 2017 suddenly springing to life once some prominent personality was perma-banned. Foolish of me.

 

[Vasudhaika]

Good enough, Sir?

I don't fully get the logic, but whatever makes you think is good enough will do.

Somehow I feel I should not have indulged in loose talk. Like pointing out that there were too many dormant accounts from 2014 to 2017 suddenly springing to life once some prominent personality was perma-banned. Foolish of me.

Now, is this directed at me? Are you suggesting that I've any connection with that perma banned personality?

Anyway as I said in the other thread, I'll try to be read only mode as much as I can, like I always did. This is consuming hell lot energies than I thought and intend to put here.

 

[Joe Shearer]

And you don't want NRC? Try to explain something here. Even my own Muslim friends cannot explain other than saying words of equality etc.
The main contention of Muslims is that it inserts the criteria of religion.

You start with a fundamental error. There is no objection to NRC on the grounds of religious discrimination. The objection to NRC is only to its acting as the thin end of the wedge, as a crowbar.

The opposition says since non Muslims are discriminated on the basis of religion they have to provide citizenship to only them and only for those who had migrated before 2014.

Do you mean that non-Muslims are discriminated/ were discriminated against on the basis of religion in the states that they came from? From Bangladesh, Pakistan and Afghanistan?

There is no problem with that. The problem is with the situation once the crowbar has been used, and after a survey, of the citizens in a region, some are found within the register, and some are excluded.

Means it specifically targets Assam.

You are referring to the present implementation of the NRC. Everyone else is talking about the nation-wide NRC that has been proposed.

Now there are two sets of illegals in Assam. Muslims and non Muslim minorities majorly Hindus. One set of people told that Hindus and Muslims are like oil and water, cannot live with brethens and demanded a separate state based on religion. Fine. Bloodily given.

What on earth are you talking about?

As far as Assam is concerned, the Ahom don't want either outsider Muslim or outsider Hindu. So where is this oil and water, cannot live with brethrens and demanding a separate state based on religion coming from?

Now BD went was very underdeveloped till the last decade and half. How is the Indian state supposed to give citizenship to people who do not believe in the idea of India or believe in their own religion supremacy. BD is again a Islamic country by law though it's more secular for a Muslim majority country.

Even if we accept your premises and take it that the reference is to the NRC in Assam, your argument says that India does not want to give citizenship at all to people from Bangladesh. Then what exactly is the NRC about?

Second, what about people migrating to the Brahmaputra banks from the Barak Valley? They are so close to the Bangladesh Hindus and Muslims that it is difficult to tell them apart. So do they now go back, not to the Barak Valley but to Bangladesh?

Now help me explain how are Muslims and Hindus 'equal' in this scenario? Even if all are sent back who are more likely to get govt and local public support and which community will be disadvantaged?

Is the Indian state supposed to set up an NRC register, or is it supposed to underwrite the welfare of those who do not make it?

Now I also agree that this protest started not when CAA was passed in parliament.AS after 2 days I guess that NRC will be implemented all over India without giving any inputs and triggered fear mechanism which is understandable and protested in a democratic way. NRC if implemented nationwide is quite tough with many communities not having anything documentary to prove their rights cutting across religion and castes.
I have my own grouse in which Lankan Tamils living in TN, Kerala, AP, Odisha haven't been provided citizenship for last 35+ years and that's a separate issue.

This is the really strange part.

First, you complain about the NRC. Then you mention, without complaining about it, the CAA. Finally you seem to agree with whatever has been said earlier.

I am sure some day you will sit down and explain to me, in simple terms, what your post was about.

I don't fully get the logic, but whatever makes you think is good enough will do.

An aggregate is an aggregate. You can't distinguish between two instances of the same thing, without harming the logic of the action.

Now, is this directed at me? Are you suggesting that I've any connection with that perma banned personality?

Oh no, not at all. Whatever made you think so? It cannot apply to you. You only became a member right in front of our ideas.

Anyway as I said in the other thread, I'll try to be read only mode as much as I can, like I always did. This is consuming hell lot energies than I thought and intend to put here.

Your wish. I doubt that anyone is issuing a three-line whip.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Let me put it simply to you: it isn't

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

You start with a fundamental error. There is no objection to NRC on the grounds of religious discrimination. The objection to NRC is only to its acting as the thin end of the wedge, as a crowbar.



Do you mean that non-Muslims are discriminated/ were discriminated against on the basis of religion in the states that they came from? From Bangladesh, Pakistan and Afghanistan?

There is no problem with that. The problem is with the situation once the crowbar has been used, and after a survey, of the citizens in a region, some are found within the register, and some are excluded.



You are referring to the present implementation of the NRC. Everyone else is talking about the nation-wide NRC that has been proposed.



What on earth are you talking about?

As far as Assam is concerned, the Ahom don't want either outsider Muslim or outsider Hindu. So where is this oil and water, cannot live with brethrens and demanding a separate state based on religion coming from?



Even if we accept your premises and take it that the reference is to the NRC in Assam, your argument says that India does not want to give citizenship at all to people from Bangladesh. Then what exactly is the NRC about?

Second, what about people migrating to the Brahmaputra banks from the Barak Valley? They are so close to the Bangladesh Hindus and Muslims that it is difficult to tell them apart. So do they now go back, not to the Barak Valley but to Bangladesh?



Is the Indian state supposed to set up an NRC register, or is it supposed to underwrite the welfare of those who do not make it?



This is the really strange part.

First, you complain about the NRC. Then you mention, without complaining about it, the CAA. Finally you seem to agree with whatever has been said earlier.

I am sure some day you will sit down and explain to me, in simple terms, what your post was about.



An aggregate is an aggregate. You can't distinguish between two instances of the same thing, without harming the logic of the action.



Oh no, not at all. Whatever made you think so? It cannot apply to you. You only became a member right in front of our ideas.



Your wish. I doubt that anyone is issuing a three-line whip.

1. I meant the opposition to the clause which mentions all religions except Islam as the criteria for CAA. This is the main clause which many oppose. Even some allies of BJP wanted to use terms like religious minorities which will indirectly fill what the BJP wants.
2. The second part as of now is pure speculation.
3,4,5. The CAA bill has been bought in to specifically target the Assam NRC when it found around 50% of the left outs were Hindus. I also attest to the fact that this law won't be applicable to someone who comes illegally to India anytime after 2014. Means they won't be provided citizenship through this amendment.
Now the govt for whatever reasons cannot bring a bill specifically targetting Assam in the CAA amendment for the fear of being struck down by the courts. Hence it bought the CAA pan India. And also to cool down Assam which has been simmering against CAA though for totally different reasons. (This is my analysis).
Now South Asians especially Bangladeshis and Indians are almost tough to differentiate and I didnt say someone nationality can be found through looks. I never said that. Don't understand your point anyway. You got pretty confusing. I am talking about points made by people in favor and against them. People in favor of NRC says since Bengalis formed a separate country on the basis of religion on what right do the "illegals" ask for citizenship of India which their ancestors rejected? Is it tough to understand? I did not define who the legals or illegals are. That's the job of SC Atleast wrt Assam.

4. Take up the issue even to INC and PC, as former HM, he feels the need to define who India's citizens are. I can direct you to the link to the channel.he made that interview. It's in Tamil, but still .. He makes pretty clear India needs NRC though he differs on the law and who should implement it.
5. The last part is the actual topic of this thread is. Delhi riots where AS is directly and indirectly possible for the future CAA protests which ended with Delhi riots.

Even with your long long explanation you didn't seem to have an answer. My question is pretty simple. When non Muslims are discriminated on the basis of religion in 3 countries officially and unofficially, and people of 2 countries who decides to form countries based on respective majority faiths, the question arises how can be Hindus and Muslims illegals of the said countries can be treated 'equal'?
You can write an essay on how the CAA can never be implemented on the ground or how tough it is to find illegals. But that's not what my question was sir. I have asked this question to quite a few of my friends (Muslims and Dravidian ideologists) alike and not one can seem to say on what logic the law is wrong. Only one I can agree with how India should never become a Hindu Pakistan or become like them. But other than there is no real counter to turn people sitting the fence to their cause.

 

[xeuss]

Now, is this directed at me? Are you suggesting that I've any connection with that perma banned personality?

As a new member, it took me a long time to learn that moderators here can ban users (temp and perm). Interesting that you know that so quickly.

 

[Joe Shearer]

As a new member, it took me a long time to learn that moderators here can ban users (temp and perm). Interesting that you know that so quickly.

LOL.

Are you saying that he already knew? Now how could he? That would mean he's been a member before which is impossible; you've already read him say he's not been on board anywhere and joined this forum only today.

 

[El Sidd]

I would be dead by now, lol.

There is a cow tracing app you may want to install to escape lynchings

 

[Vasudhaika]

As a new member, it took me a long time to learn that moderators here can ban users (temp and perm). Interesting that you know that so quickly.

What kind of silly argument is this? I'm following this forum from ~5 years. I know that people can be banned on this or any forum.

Are you saying that he already knew? Now how could he? That would mean he's been a member before which is impossible; you've already read him say he's not been on board anywhere and joined this forum only today.

I'm also saying I knew. Is this a complex variation of unified field theory not to understand? ROFL, what kind of childish argument is this? I was on many Telugu NRI boards and forums, from mid 2000s, acted as mod at some point too. I specifically told you in my first post 'I'm not on any Defence forums' also I told you I'm following this forum from 4-5 years.

I said I'm not on any def forums, doesn't make me a Rip Van Winkle, who is trying to understand what is internet from PDF, lol. Forget about @xeuss, he has an agenda to peddle, I did not expect this from you Joe, a fellow sona masoori eater.

 

[Naofumi]

the question arises how can be Hindus and Muslims illegals of the said countries can be treated 'equal'?

The answer is simple - India should care only for Indians, try not be a "dharmshala", is not it? Therefore any alien is a equally a drag for us when millions of our own Hindus (and Muslims) are dying of malnutrition.

There is a cow tracing app you may want to install to escape lynchings

But what if the cow has already been slaughtered?