Naval guards: India moves to downgrade diplomatic ties with Italy

[Bang Galore]

There is no such provision for PRISONERS. But these were undertrials, and not convicted. They were still presumed innocent, pending trial, as per the Indian norm. Undertrials have every right to take bail, unless they are deemed a flight risk. Sending undertrials to a foreign country was perhaps a first - but then we probably have never had such a situation arise before.

They were not even really undertrials, there was no chargesheet filed against them (the original chargesheet having been quashed by the SC). There was an FIR filed by the Kerala police who the SC ruled had no jurisdiction, therefore of questionable value. There was no court that existed which could have tried the marines, a new one had to still be set up which would then presumably frame charges. Such a court is yet to be created.

This was simply dirty politics & lack of testicular fortitude by the GoI(originally) taking precedence over a calibrated, judicial approach & only the utter foolishness of the Italians has given this some fuel and life.

 

[janon]

They were not even really undertrials, there was no chargesheet filed against them (the original chargesheet having been quashed by the SC). There was an FIR filed by the Kerala police who the SC ruled had no jurisdiction, therefore of questionable value. There was no court that existed which could have tried the marines, a new one had to still be set up which would then presumably frame charges. Such a court is yet to be created.

This was simply dirty politics & lack of testicular fortitude by the GoI(originally) taking precedence over a calibrated, judicial approach & only the utter foolishness of the Italians has given this some fuel and life.

That's what I was implying earlier. Harish Salve, representing the marines, would have wiped the floor on the issue of jurisdiction. Italy really shot itself in the foot on this issue. They should have simply waited for the result of the trial.

However, the troubling fact remains that they did kill two people - somebody should have tried them.

 

[Bang Galore]

However, the troubling fact remains that they did kill two people - somebody should have tried them.

Nor necessarily illegal if they acted within the boundaries of the SOP issued to them. Only if they were in violation of that could they be tried & that too in Italy. A very sad & tragic incident but not necessarily having anyone criminally culpable for it.

 

[Developereo]

The Italians view this as a hostage situation.

The marines were captured by trickery and were freed by trickery.

The ambassador and the SC situation is a bit of a pickle, though!

 

[ashokdeiva]

Nor necessarily illegal if they acted within the boundaries of the SOP issued to them. Only if they were in violation of that could they be tried & that too in Italy. A very sad & tragic incident but not necessarily having anyone criminally culpable for it.

I am sure there needs to be warning shots taken to alert the threat before firing on the people on board.
Besides the warning shots should be from a suitable caliber weapon that it alerts the people on board the approaching vessel. The shots at these fisher men are from sniper rifles which means that they are not of the suitable caliber to produce a splash in the water to alert the men in the boat. the other fact might be is the range of the target was too much which does not give an indication as a treat to the tanker.

 

[janon]

The Italians view this as a hostage situation.

The marines were captured by trickery and were freed by trickery.

The ambassador and the SC situation is a bit of a pickle, though!

They were not captured by trickery. They were caught by the Indian coast guard when they shot the fishermen dead, and then the ship tried to flee.

If we had brought them into India on some other pretext and then placed under arrest, you could draw some parallel between their arrest and their fleeing. But as things stand, only their fleeing was through trickery. Them being brought into India was in the same manner that any coast guard would have done.

 

[Bang Galore]

I am sure there needs to be warning shots taken to alert the threat before firing on the people on board.
Besides the warning shots should be from a suitable caliber weapon that it alerts the people on board the approaching vessel. The shots at these fisher men are from sniper rifles which means that they are not of the suitable caliber to produce a splash in the water to alert the men in the boat. the other fact might be is the range of the target was too much which does not give an indication as a treat to the tanker.

As i said, that would depend on the SOP that they were issued and whether they were in violation of that. If they were, they would be charged under Italian law, if they weren't, they were not going to be charged.

Btw, weren't the rifles Beretta's ARX 160 ? The one in contention for the Indian army tender? Not sniper rifles.

 

[janon]

As i said, that would depend on the SOP that they were issued and whether they were in violation of that. If they were, they would be charged under Italian law, if they weren't, they were not going to be charged.

I am sure that no SOP would ask a civilian ship to shoot people dead, unless they were actually making threatening moves, which is what the Italians are claiming the fishermen did. There is no way IMO that an unarmed fishing trawler can make hostile moves against an oil tanker.

Also, I think the Indian authorities were planning to argue that the incident happened within our jurisdiction. That hadn't been ruled out yet.

 

[Developereo]

They were not captured by trickery. They were caught by the Indian coast guard when they shot the fishermen dead, and then the ship tried to flee.

If we had brought them into India on some other pretext and then placed under arrest, you could draw some parallel between their arrest and their fleeing. But as things stand, only their fleeing was through trickery. Them being brought into India was in the same manner that any coast guard would have done.

I was relaying the online comments in Italy.

The Italian move has huge public support locally and the belief is that the marines should never have been in Indian custody in the first place; that they were somehow deceived/tricked off their ship.

 

[Bang Galore]

I am sure that no SOP would ask a civilian ship to shoot people dead, unless they were actually making threatening moves, which is what the Italians are claiming the fishermen did. There is no way IMO that an unarmed fishing trawler can make hostile moves against an oil tanker.

That would require India to ask the Italians to make that determination.

Also, I think the Indian authorities were planning to argue that the incident happened within our jurisdiction. That hadn't been ruled out yet.

Obviously, there would be no case otherwise. Very dicey the position on jurisdictional grounds. Even the SC suggested to the Italians that be the first argument in front of the special court. Matter might have ended in the first sitting itself if the court had ruled no jurisdiction.

 

[janon]

I was relaying the online comments in Italy.

The Italian move has huge public support locally and the belief is that the marines should never have been in Indian custody in the first place; that they were somehow deceived/tricked off their ship.

Yes, the Italian govt was under huge pressure to save the marines. The Italian people made it a big political and electoral issue. But I think this will backfire on them. Let us see how they feel like when their ambassador cools his heels in Tihar jail - and this time, it wont be in a CRPF guest house, I don't think such diplomatic courtesies will be adhered to.

GoI has also kept open the question of "reviewing" all relations with Italy - diplomatic, military and trade. They may have underestimated the Indian governments' own political imperatives, when they made such a move.

 

[Bang Galore]

GoI has also kept open the question of "reviewing" all relations with Italy - diplomatic, military and trade. They may have underestimated the Indian governments' own political imperatives, when they made such a move.

Couldn't agree more. Big, big blunder.

 

[ashokdeiva]

India is too partial in handling the events that happen at Sea. one one hand they go to the extent of restricting the Italian Envoy from moving out of the country on 2 fisher men who got killed on the wester border, on the other hand they do not take any action on the 600 INDIAN fisher men so far killed by the SL navy on the Estern side of the nation.
The problem that I see is Congress has a big presence in Kerala and needs to act or else they will lose votes, but in TN what ever they do they are not going to earn the trust of the Tamils so they are ignoring the plight of the Tamils in INDIA

 

[ashokdeiva]

Couldn't agree more. Big, big blunder.

I think this episode of drama is well orchestered by the GOI, at the end of this people will forget and the ties with Italy will be normalized as it was. they know that we can not do any thing about bring the Marines to face trial in INDIA so they will forget as time passes. the Central government is playing with sentiments of INDIA, I dont know when its going to blow in their face

 

[livingdead]

I think this episode of drama is well orchestered by the GOI, at the end of this people will forget and the ties with Italy will be normalized as it was. they know that we can not do any thing about bring the Marines to face trial in INDIA so they will forget as time passes. the Central government is playing with sentiments of INDIA, I dont know when its going to blow in their face

the sad thing is , even SC is involved in this game. I cannot undestand why a court will allow them to travel to italy to cast vote when they could have done it here.