National Air Defense Command (NADCOM) - Updates & Discussions.

[trendmaker1]

our country's armed forces believe that the best defence is a good offence & a mobile moving defence rather than a stationary target! hence PAF always invests in fighters and not so much in SAMs!

SAM systems are too costly & can be destroyed by SEAD operations. hence pakitan with its limited resources avoids good SAM systems.

the first GULF WAR showed how a SAM system can be annihilated by a major super power on the first night of hostilies! hence PAF is not keen SAMs unfortunately.

It's old strategy....There should be a balance in offensive as well as in defensive capabilities...!!!

 

[Aamir Hussain]

our country's armed forces believe that the best defence is a good offence & a mobile moving defence rather than a stationary target! hence PAF always invests in fighters and not so much in SAMs!

SAM systems are too costly & can be destroyed by SEAD operations. hence pakitan with its limited resources avoids good SAM systems.

the first GULF WAR showed how a SAM system can be annihilated by a major super power on the first night of hostilies! hence PAF is not keen SAMs unfortunately.

Rehtoric aside, if we are out preparing to fight a superpower, then this investment in fighter aircrafts will also turn out to be useless. From the same example that you gave, Iraqi AF could not even launch its aircrafts except for few initial sorties.

However, in fight with a regional power, the use or lack of it would mean the difference between tieing down resources for point air defense or interdiction. In 65' and 71' we had far less strategic assets to defend. Today we have lot more of consequence. Therefore, SAM cover is a need and no more a luxury.

 

[ice_man]

Rehtoric aside, if we are out preparing to fight a superpower, then this investment in fighter aircrafts will also turn out to be useless. From the same example that you gave, Iraqi AF could not even launch its aircrafts except for few initial sorties.

However, in fight with a regional power, the use or lack of it would mean the difference between tieing down resources for point air defense or interdiction. In 65' and 71' we had far less strategic assets to defend. Today we have lot more of consequence. Therefore, SAM cover is a need and no more a luxury.

unfortunately for PAF the gulf war along with shooting down of 2 indian fighters in 1999 kargil theater & the shooting down of an indian drone (given to them by israel) in the 2002 military buildup has made our airforce totally believe in the theory of low altitiude manpads & SAMs and fighters for the rest of air defence as the doctrine adopted by PAF.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Doctrine? Which one? Seems something is wrong here. Thinking of air defense from MANPADS and going for Spada 2000 and China for high altitude SAM's.

Thank God that planners at PAF are not sniffing glue and fully know the consequences of going against a superpower unlike the rest of the 180 million believers in this land of pure.

Lack of resources is the reason for going slow on this and not a matter of Doctrine or design.

 

[ice_man]

Doctrine? Which one? Seems something is wrong here. Thinking of air defense from MANPADS and going for Spada 2000 and China for high altitude SAM's.

Thank God that planners at PAF are not sniffing glue and fully know the consequences of going against a superpower unlike the rest of the 180 million believers in this land of pure.

Lack of resources is the reason for going slow on this and not a matter of Doctrine or design.

high altitiude SAMs from CHINA? which ones sir? PAF hasn't even considered anything along those lines! the FT-2000 was mentioned by our ex CAS but never was looked into seriously. as for SPADA 2000s it sticks to the doctrine of medium range SAM system. with a range of 25 kms.

 

[Last Hope]

high altitiude SAMs from CHINA? which ones sir? PAF hasn't even considered anything along those lines! the FT-2000 was mentioned by our ex CAS but never was looked into seriously. as for SPADA 2000s it sticks to the doctrine of medium range SAM system. with a range of 25 kms.

Anything I say is sensitive on this matter but all I can say is that you're wrong. You're not updated with recent developments in Air Defense.

 

[ice_man]

Anything I say is sensitive on this matter but all I can say is that you're wrong. You're not updated with recent developments in Air Defense.

so you are trying to say that PAF is purchasing high altititude SAMs in the cover of darkness and the world doesn't know! i am sorry but my information regarding the minhas events and purchase of SAMs is as acurate as it can be. but anyhow if we wish to enter a self made realm of "c lassified" then i guess this discussion can't proceeed!

 

[Aamir Hussain]

And what is your source of info. my friend?

 

[Imran Khan]

so you are trying to say that PAF is purchasing high altititude SAMs in the cover of darkness and the world doesn't know! i am sorry but my information regarding the minhas events and purchase of SAMs is as acurate as it can be. but anyhow if we wish to enter a self made realm of "c lassified" then i guess this discussion can't proceeed!

ye is ki purani adat ahi yaar remember 36 block-52

 

[ANPP]

unfortunately for PAF the gulf war along with shooting down of 2 indian fighters in 1999 kargil theater & the shooting down of an indian drone (given to them by israel) in the 2002 military buildup has made our airforce totally believe in the theory of low altitiude manpads & SAMs and fighters for the rest of air defence as the doctrine adopted by PAF.

Grow-up man,
MIG-21 & MIG-27 are the plane which were shot down by manpads.
None of MIRAG & JAGUAR was shot down by them.
Now few points...

These plane are in low altitude recogniz mission, & very old platform & that region is also Himalayan.
Now nearly all fighters are able to drop laser bomb in IAF & war is not just concern in J&K.


So if you are leaving your all air defense onto manpads & on fighters, than only god can save you.
Also manpads for base defense in very unlikely, I never heard like this before. They just provide very low altitude safeguard(max 4 km) & only useful for infantry where CAS is immediate threat.

 

[aanshu001]

Grow-up man,
MIG-21 & MIG-27 are the plane which were shot down by manpads.
None of MIRAG & JAGUAR was shot down by them.
Now few points...

These plane are in low altitude recogniz mission, & very old platform & that region is also Himalayan.
Now nearly all fighters are able to drop laser bomb in IAF & war is not just concern in J&K.


So if you are leaving your all air defense onto manpads & on fighters, than only god can save you.
Also manpads for base defense in very unlikely, I never heard like this before. They just provide very low altitude safeguard(max 4 km) & only useful for infantry where CAS is immediate threat.

Correction Mig 27 was down coz of technical problem not by manpads and in kargil Manpads were fired from 16000 - 18000 ft. not from sea level that's also make difference my friend.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

SAM systems are too costly & can be destroyed by SEAD operations. hence pakitan with its limited resources avoids good SAM systems.

the first GULF WAR showed how a SAM system can be annihilated by a major super power on the first night of hostilies! hence PAF is not keen SAMs unfortunately.

SAM systems are not as costly as a fighter plane, they are forever present in the area they are needed and dont need to be re-fueled. in the face of the SEAD operation they can be switched off if there is no alternative and it was the Serbian SAM system that brought down a stealth plane and caused them to exclaim "sorry we didnt know it was stealth"

SAM systems and aircrafts cover two entirely different positions of the same role like you have Artillery and Armour and foot infantry you cant discard one in favour of another.

citing Gulf war and American adversary is unfair because American power is simply out of the league, no amount of air force is enough to thwart a determined attack from a power at American level. India on the other hand doesnt have that much of a parity otherwise it would have gone beyond the rhetoric during Mumbai or Indian Parliament attack .

pointing at potential threats and weaknesses of one system in isolation is meaningless, if SAMs have threat from SEAD operations then the SEAD aircrafts have threats from defending airforce fighters and if the defending airforce fighters have threat from fighter escorts of the SEAD planes then those escorts have threats from SAMs and so on.. a SEAD plane might have to fly low to avoid radar detection meaning it also presents itself to conventional Anti Aircraft artillery and manpads.

just like a football team you got goal keeper, strikers, full backs and linkmen etc each and everyone plays his role, all cant be strikers and all cant be goalkeepers sorry for crude example

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Good explanation IB. There can not be a determined airdefense strategy without point defense SAM layer interlaced with CAP's. End of argument. I for one do not think that PAF planner are that stupid or unaware of this to not to weave in this important element in their air defense strategy.

 

[shbaziz]

we should erect 200 and 300 meter tall poles in our border areas....on the top of each pole we should weld one anza mk-2 manpad....bring the wires down to earth so that it can be operated from an underground command center/bunker.....one small camera with anza will also help....

very cheap and indigenous idea......

later on we can weld BVR's too on top of 400 meter tall poles.

Man! you really cracked me up! let me tell you a simple pole some 30 meters high and hosting telecom antennae requires being built quite wide. You could see around yourself. There is no way you could build a mono-pole some 200/300 meters high. Moreover, it will increase the range of Anza only marginally.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Man! you really cracked me up! let me tell you a simple pole some 30 meters high and hosting telecom antennae requires being built quite wide. You could see around yourself. There is no way you could build a mono-pole some 200/300 meters high. Moreover, it will increase the range of Anza only marginally.

300 meters to be precise

joke aside, there is some out of the box thinking there and I must give a hint that some radical approaches adapted for airborne early warning so I would cut him some slack.

if a self stabilizing platform (a bucket) can be made that accommodates say two missile launch tubes of MANPAD category and then tie it underneath a helium balloon then this might be an interesting mix. the cost, effort and practicality will be a consideration vs the perceived benefit.such Balloons are already deployed as a passive defence and some carry sensors as well in different parts of Pakistan and they are as high as a good 800 to 1000 m high, tied and restrained by strings. adding mountains into the mix will further enhance their range.

on their own these balloons act as a passive area denial in the narrow pathways of the valley for low flying hostile aircrafts and are meant to destroy the aircraft on impact if the pilot is not fast enough to avoid them. I have lived and visited places where they were deployed in the air when the things got jittery with our Eastern neighbour and pulled back to ground when things calmed down.