N-deal with Pak could hit ties, India cautions China

[TaimiKhan]

What is world opinion?

It sure is not independent fact based belief or conclusion but rather what is fed to the general masses through media and government propaganda.

The world opinion was that Iraq had WMD's and could launch an attack on Europe within 45 minutes.

The world opinion was that Pakistan is going to collapse in 2009 and its nuclear weapons stolen.

World opinion is such that it can even cloud the mind of the most intelligent of humans. The reality is different to what is often presented, if we start to go by world opinion, we would be as good as dead because the common man does not know much about the tasks that matter.

I am not generalizing, I am presenting my opinion that will be shared by many people with similar background, you are presenting what is your opinion and in general the masses. So we both have our versions and realities that differ.

T-Faz, yaar don't waste your time, no matter what you say it isn't gonna make a damn change in thinking of the opposite side.

Simple thing is, what you said, they can't stand to see others getting things, as in such way their regional hegemonic ambitions would take more time or whatever you can think in that regard would get hurt.

They are the angels and have the right to have nuclear deal, and we don't becoz of our non proliferation record, while they forget their own stealing and lying to the whole world.

So don't waste much of your energy in the end you are gonna be while nothing happening to them.

 

[Pride]

Honestly speaking, it provided a nuclear deal to India to deepen the relations between both nations. US has its interests and when it gives something to someone, it expects a lot back and at a crucial time. The deal allows US to gain an important ally in Asia to counter a few countries in the region, specifically China. They knew we would never work against China so they went ahead with this important deal with your nation.

We would not work against China, US knows that and that is the reason why it switched sides to support India. Now when it came to us, they knew we would get something from somewhere, they resisted saying anything before but once the Iran sanctions passed, they showed their true colors.

India is not a country which can act like a proxy for any other nation. GoI is clear on this stance since Mr Nehru till Mr Manmohan Singh and will remain the same. This is the reason we have friends Russia, China and US on same line "Profit for the nation".

As you only talked about Indo-US deal, care to explain what is the profit for Canada, France and Russia to have similar deals with India? Reason is very simple, Thorium based less dangerous civil technology is still not succesfully available with the world except India. We developed Thorium based technic when we were under sanctions.

In my opinion, It would be very easy for US to use Pakistan as proxy to counter China even against wish of general mass. They have done it many a times, few to quote, US forced Pak to have friendship with Israel for transferring USSR made weapons during Afghan war and second to use drones/WoT against their own people.

Now I am going to mention another little known fact. US had initiated the TAPI pipeline negotiations and India was supposed to benefit greatly from it. Taliban held discussion with USG and UNOCAL and the plan was going ahead as laid out but another company jumped in and offered a better deal. Enron which was very dependent on this project had already spend a lot of money building Dabhol plant in India. The deal fell through and Enron collapsed, India was stuck in a quagmire and this could have resulted in a very serious energy crisis. Because US could not provide what they had promised, they instead went ahead with the nuclear deal because the TAPI pipeline even with US invasion had very bleak chances.









Please look at the whole picture and see how suspicious and murky everything is.

I wont discuss the same as this is off topic as well looks more like conspiracy theories based on few points.

 

[Pride]

T-Faz, yaar don't waste your time, no matter what you say it isn't gonna make a damn change in thinking of the opposite side.

Simple thing is, what you said, they can't stand to see others getting things, as in such way their regional hegemonic ambitions would take more time or whatever you can think in that regard would get hurt.

They are the angels and have the right to have nuclear deal, and we don't becoz of our non proliferation record, while they forget their own stealing and lying to the whole world.

So don't waste much of your energy in the end you are gonna be while nothing happening to them.

Taimikhan, You could do much better than this buddy. What we are discussing here is why India or any other country is worried about Sino-Pak nuclear deal. I am in full support of Pakistan having civil Nuclear deal if this deal happens like US-Pak, France-Pak or any other countries but my suspicion arises when world is still having opinion for Sino Pak as illegetimite ally for Nuclear proliferation and they might be continuing the same when they have such umbrella deal.

 

[Ras]

Stupid reaction from India...India should encourage more nuclear plants especially desalination ones in Pakistan and build more of these herself.
When the water runs out atleast both countries won't remain thirsty.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Taimikhan, You could do much better than this buddy. What we are discussing here is why India or any other country is worried about Sino-Pak nuclear deal. I am in full support of Pakistan having civil Nuclear deal if this deal happens like US-Pak, France-Pak or any other countries but my suspicion arises when world is still having opinion for Sino Pak as illegetimite ally for Nuclear proliferation and they might be continuing the same when they have such umbrella deal.

Yes i can do much better, but problem is I have lost all hope.

For the last time am gonna put it in simple words, this deal is under IAEA safeguards, meaning these reactors will be under the watchful eyes of international observers, who will monitor it all and so far we had no breech in our civil nuclear program, what had happened has happened, and we have moved ahead of it and learned our lesson and for last few years you won't hear any such proliferation thing with respect to Pakistan.

And if Pakistan wanted these reactors for other military purposes, then the world would not even have heard about the deal, that goes behind the scenes rather the world would know about them through satellite pictures that this and that reactor has surfaced or started working.

And in the end, as for international concern, why don't you ask these same international players that how come under such tough rules and regulations, western nuke, chemical & biological warfare equipment falls into the hands of states going for such systems who then use it on innocents, how did Saddam get his nuke tech, his chemical and biological warfare capability, western companies gave it to him.

French-Israel, British-Israel, definitely US-Israel, Israel-South Africans, Russia-Iran etc etc etc, are records of non proliferation and still continuing to do so.

How is US so sure that India like past won't steal nuke material from peaceful purpose reactors and make a bomb out of it ?? Similarly if India has become a responsible non-proliferation state after its stealing record, similarly Pakistan can also become a non-proliferation member after what it did wrong.

As said, since 2004 can you point out a single case or incident where Pakistan has done something of that nature, don't think so.

So Pakistan has full rights to get as much nuke civil tech as it can & wants and it is a responsible member.

Other members record is much worse compared to ours. If they can acquire nuke civil tech, so can we.

 

[vsdoc]

I have a very basic question which is highly non-technical. Do nuclear weapons have a shelf life? If not, then short of improvements in the delivery capacity, I am sure that both India and Pakistan already have enough bombs to wipe each other out many times over right? So what is this fuss about wanting to make more? For what or who? For that matter, why did the US and the erstwhile USSR stockpile thousands of nuclear bombs? Yes both those countries are big, but 10,000+ nuclear warheads each? Isn't that a bit much? I am hoping this is not taken as going off topic, and some strategic/military expert can help me out here please.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Pride]

Yes i can do much better, but problem is I have lost all hope.

For the last time am gonna put it in simple words, this deal is under IAEA safeguards, meaning these reactors will be under the watchful eyes of international observers, who will monitor it all and so far we had no breech in our civil nuclear program, what had happened has happened, and we have moved ahead of it and learned our lesson and for last few years you won't hear any such proliferation thing with respect to Pakistan.

Taimikhan,Deal is still not approved by IAEA and NSG and still in consideration. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Let me appreciate with your honest acceptance of past proliferation and assurance not to repeat the same in the future. You know what the same assurance whole world demands in this respect. As once you spoil your reputation, It takes time to repair the same. I wish Pakistan rulers follow the same methodology.

And if Pakistan wanted these reactors for other military purposes, then the world would not even have heard about the deal, that goes behind the scenes.

After N-bomb testing whole world's intel agencies have eyes on us and hence it is not the same scenario as 13 yrs ago so many countries want a safe passage of Radioactive elements.

And in the end, as for international concern, why don't you ask these same international players that how come under such tough rules and regulations, western nuke, chemical & biological warfare equipment falls into the hands of states going for such systems who then use it on innocents, how did Saddam get his nuke tech, his chemical and biological warfare capability, western companies gave it to him.

French-Israel, British-Israel, definitely US-Israel, Israel-South Africans, Russia-Iran etc etc etc, are records of non proliferation and still continuing to do so.

Ofcourse this world is used by some double-faced international players and they do have capability for the same but that is not of our matter of concern untill they attack other nations or on verge of collapse like USSR.

How is US so sure that India like past won't steal nuke material from peaceful purpose reactors and make a bomb out of it ?? Similarly if India has become a non-proliferation state after its stealing, similarly Pakistan can also become a non-proliferation member after what it did wrong.

US is so sure about India as NSG is supplying Thorium for civil deals with India and world has yet to see a bomb made of it while Plutonium and Uranium are used for N bombs.

As said, since 2004 can you point out a single case or incident where Pakistan has done something of that nature, don't think so.

So Pakistan has full rights to get as much nuke civil tech as it can & wants and it is a responsible member.

Other members record is much worse compared to ours. If they can acquire nuke civil tech, so can we.

Yes, You are absolutely right after identification of Mr A Q Khan's case in 2004 there were no N Proliferation case has come up from Pakistan side but international player needs more time to see stable Pakistan for a long time. This is why US is bit worried to give you civil N deal, Once Pakistan will be continuous stable and act responsible for continuous 10-15 years, No one will have any issues. Read Pakistan's history and find continuous peaceful 15 years of democratic government.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I have a very basic question which is highly non-technical. Do nuclear weapons have a shelf life? If not, then short of improvements in the delivery capacity, I am sure that both India and Pakistan already have enough bombs to wipe each other out many times over right? So what is this fuss about wanting to make more? For what or who? For that matter, why did the US and the erstwhile USSR stockpile thousands of nuclear bombs? Yes both those countries are big, but 10,000+ nuclear warheads each? Isn't that a bit much? I am hoping this is not taken as going off topic, and some strategic/military expert can help me out here please.

Cheers, Doc

Yes nuke material as well as the material used in the warhead as well as the missile itself all have their own shelf lives and their shelf lives depends on the conditions stored in, and the materials own shelf lives, e.g Tritium used in warheads have a half shelf life of approx 12.5 years, and this is a very important material used for the chain reaction to happen before the full explosion of the nuke, so if time passes on tritium then it may not perform as per its expectation and a nuclear detonation may not take place.

Plus, warheads as well as missile all need maintenance, corrosion can take place and when the missile is needed to be fired, it may not work and can explode.

So everything in a nuke missile, from nuke material to warhead material, exploding device and the material used for chain reactions, as well as missile fuel and its parts have a shelf life. Need constant maintenance and certification after a few years about the whole system that it will perform as per parameters or else the weapon is replaced with new one or given for maintenance.

The solid fuel in missiles also have a shelf life.

Pretty expensive.

US and USSR making thousands is out of my logic, as don't know why so many, most probably as a deterrent to the maximum.

 

[Pride]

Stupid reaction from India...India should encourage more nuclear plants especially desalination ones in Pakistan and build more of these herself.
When the water runs out atleast both countries won't remain thirsty.

Ok I accept it as stupid reaction from India. Please explain why your country can give fighter jets, Drones to Pakistan but not Civil N deal ?

 

[TaimiKhan]

@Pride, IAEA has nothing to do with the deal as per what i know, they are a watchdog, not an approval agency, countries can go to them and ask them to monitor their reactors to comply with international standards and regulations so that the reactors are certified to be safe and quality is ensured and no wrong doing is done.

As for NSG, US also went against the wishes of many NSG members in doing the deal with India, so why can't China. I believe Agno in his previous posts has explained well how the NSG works. China has a very good case in case US tries to block it, as what US did India, why stop China with Pakistan, as China has full confidence in us and the recent statement by them that this is a deal for peaceful purposes to be exact for generating electricity, no one should be worried, it will be under the safe guards of international agencies.

As said, we had so far no complaints from the international monitoring agencies when it comes to our civil nuclear sector, with more then 35 years since we have been using civil nuclear energy reactors.

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 PM ----------

@Pride, IAEA has nothing to do with the deal as per what i know, they are a watchdog, not an approval agency, countries can go to them and ask them to monitor their reactors to comply with international standards and regulations so that the reactors are certified to be safe and quality is ensured and no wrong doing is done.

As for NSG, US also went against the wishes of many NSG members in doing the deal with India, so why can't China. I believe Agno in his previous posts has explained well how the NSG works. China has a very good case in case US tries to block it, as what US did India, why stop China with Pakistan, as China has full confidence in us and the recent statement by them that this is a deal for peaceful purposes to be exact for generating electricity, no one should be worried, it will be under the safe guards of international agencies.

As said, we had so far no complaints from the international monitoring agencies when it comes to our civil nuclear sector, with more then 35 years since we have been using civil nuclear energy reactors.

 

[indushek]

Ok I accept it as stupid reaction from India. Please explain why your country can give fighter jets, Drones to Pakistan but not Civil N deal ?

Man do u speak for the whole country or are u any expert? so how can u say its a stupid reaction? do u think all our Diplomatic machinery is a bunch of fools. For ur info they have the best like IAS and IFS serving there. Countries do not resort to knee jerk reactions particularly in such cases.

 

[TechLahore]

It is India cautions China, Not threatens China, so why is there need to be a Big fuss About it.... But You people take it in a way as if India has threatened China

Like India "cautioned" the Sri Lankan cricket team? And we all saw what happened after that.

Frankly, none of India's bloody business.

 

[foxbat]

Like India "cautioned" the Sri Lankan cricket team? And we all saw what happened after that.

Frankly, none of India's bloody business.

@TL

While I personally have no issues with China Pak Nuclear deal (how does it matter to India if Pakistan grows), I think the comment about Sri Lanka team is a little low by your standards....

 

[TechLahore]

@TL

While I personally have no issues with China Pak Nuclear deal (how does it matter to India if Pakistan grows), I think the comment about Sri Lanka team is a little low by your standards....

Well, then perhaps you needed to be part of the conversation I personally had with the senior most police officer in the intel unit that investigated this issue. Then perhaps your opinion would differ from the above.

 

[IndianArmy]

Like India "cautioned" the Sri Lankan cricket team? And we all saw what happened after that.

Frankly, none of India's bloody business.

We Knew You, So we dint send, they dared to Go, and received a Warm Welcome From You guys... and a 21 gun salute was offered To the Sri lankan national team.