Myth of United India -- Democracy or Hypocrisy

[notsuperstitious]

Secondly, you said, "Mind it The Time we are Talking about Pakistan didnt Exist .. and It was a Combined State." Entirely wrong. I have serious doubt on your knowledge of history. There might not have been Pakistan, but there was no india as well because even the concept of united india was not there. Yes some hindu kings in ancient times might have conquered many parts, but could not keep them all intact for a long time, and it was only the Mughals who conquered and retained all parts intact for a long time almost thousand years, before the British.

Well so much for knowledge of history. mughals came to india in the 16th century. so we have 500 more years to go under them

Damn.

 

[Communist]

Caste system is often intertwined with old India's economic history. Nevertheless, that should not stop us from trying to entirely rid India of the last traces of the system.

Very good. You want progress and that impressed me. But how can you eradicate caste identity (remember identity) without eradicating Hinduism? Because if you convert yourself into Hinduism, you need to have a caste identity? Mention any Hindu who does not have a caste identity. You cannot. Never. Look, in order to become a Hindu, you need to be ascribed a certain social and ritual ranking which is of course tuned to your economic status. You are not a Hindu, if you do not belong to any caste. Without entering the caste structure, none can become Hindu.

 

[wtf]

Because indian Hindus follow their traditions. Can you deny that? No. India is of primarily a village agricultural society. India is not entirely Mumbai or Bangalore.

If you read Manusmriti and Arthasatra and then read some good books and magazines like Economic and Political Weekly and Frontline, which are indian magazines and try to examine matters in the light of those books, you will understand everything.

Manusmriti and Arthashastra set a viewpoint from a strong-state perspective. They talk about controlling mines and governments and printing money as much as (or much more than) caste system. They also talk about organization of a state etc. In that sense no Indian follows it. For example it has not been the case from British times to have differential interest rates based on caste. India also does not have guilds anymore, nor are there taxation systems based on crops as described in these books.

I would not deny that Caste system exists in parts of India - nowadays more as a tool to control land than anything else (eg: Ranbir Sena). I have lived in 3 metros (10 years) and 6-7 village-rural areas (Rest of my life). I used to read Frontline/The Week and India today regularly while I was in India - but nowadays have no more time than reading Industry journals and NY Times.

I have never seen anything like what is described in Manusmriti. I have been asked my caste exactly once (on a train through Bihar, and by a Muslim no idea why - go figure!). Never lived in Bombay except for a few days. But one thing I can see is that when land becomes irrelevant (like in Mumbai) and wealth comes from hard work, caste becomes absolutely immaterial. So economic development and Urbanization is what is killing the caste system - and that is a good thing. Revolution seems to come from bonds and stocks and smokestacks of factories more than from barrels of guns.

BTW, Are you from India or Pakistan ? Maybe a common reference point may help continue the debate.

 

[Communist]

Well so much for knowledge of history. mughals came to india in the 16th century. so we have 500 more years to go under them

Damn.

Sorry I just missed to mention the Sultanate rule. But I said 'almost'. Yes if we count from the Sultanate rule, it is almost thousand. And also Sultanate rule is important for the coming of the Mughals, because they paved their way for migration to India.

 

[wtf]

Very good. You want progress and that impressed me. But how can you eradicate caste identity (remember identity) without eradicating Hinduism? Because if you convert yourself into Hinduism, you need to have a caste identity?

Oh that is easy. Look at Tamilnadu, they consider themselves Dravidians and Tamil-Hindus. And they pretty much have no concept of caste. Or look at Andhra Pradesh where there is a caste system, but the caste and religion don't go together - The people of different religions intermarry, as long as they are from similar caste/economic background. Or the AryaSamaj people who actively renounce caste and go back to the old books.

Caste is more to do with economic dominance than Hinduism. Set up policies that allow anyone to grow and achieve what they want, stop people from hoarding land and caste falls by the wayside. And that is exactly what I would do - Impose progressive inheritance taxes (so that land cannot be inherited easily), continue current policy of reservation for education (I believe education is the greatest tool for social progress) and increasing economic development. I would think that would fix any traces of caste system in short order.

Religion is orthogonal to the issue, I think.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Sorry I just missed to mention the Sultanate rule. But I said 'almost'. Yes if we count from the Sultanate rule, it is almost thousand. And also Sultanate rule is important for the coming of the Mughals, because they paved their way for migration to India.

Oh I get it, u mean the sultenates.

U mean delhi sultenate and the deccan sultenates!!

Thats two, not one

Sultenates formed in the 13th century mughals powerless in the 18th. so we are looking at a 100% exaggeration. 1000 years, yes i've heard zaid hamid say that.

and BTW, Bhagvad Gita was not written by Manu.

 

[Communist]

Manusmriti and Arthashastra set a viewpoint from a strong-state perspective. They talk about controlling mines and governments and printing money as much as (or much more than) caste system. They also talk about organization of a state etc. In that sense no Indian follows it. For example it has not been the case from British times to have differential interest rates based on caste. India also does not have guilds anymore, nor are there taxation systems based on crops as described in these books.

I would not deny that Caste system exists in parts of India - nowadays more as a tool to control land than anything else (eg: Ranbir Sena). I have lived in 3 metros (10 years) and 6-7 village-rural areas (Rest of my life). I used to read Frontline/The Week and India today regularly while I was in India - but nowadays have no more time than reading Industry journals and NY Times.

I have never seen anything like what is described in Manusmriti. I have been asked my caste exactly once (on a train through Bihar, and by a Muslim no idea why - go figure!). Never lived in Bombay except for a few days. But one thing I can see is that when land becomes irrelevant (like in Mumbai) and wealth comes from hard work, caste becomes absolutely immaterial. So economic development and Urbanization is what is killing the caste system - and that is a good thing. Revolution seems to come from bonds and stocks and smokestacks of factories more than from barrels of guns.

BTW, Are you from India or Pakistan ? Maybe a common reference point may help continue the debate.

Manusmriti is important particularly to understand the social fabric whereas Arthasastra is a vital text to know India's foreign relations and policies. We must not confuse them. The present economic structure is the result of the Gatt negotiations conducted during the times of PV Narasimha Rao and you know what the negotiations stood for.

I was initially surprised by knowing that you did not face any query about your caste, but then I realized you lived in india for a short span of time. Caste identity exists in urban India also, and if you just read the Matrimonial Issues of the newspapers or if you just visit any Hindu matrimonial site you will understand that. Yes in metros, you cannot find the hired goons Ranveer Senas of the Rajput Thakurs' except in the villages of UP and Bihar. There caste plays a one role whereas in urban areas caste plays another role. If you are interested in caste as Hindu identity, I would suggest one marvelous book 'Caste, Culture, and Hegemony: Social Domination in Colonial Bengal by Śekhara Bandyopādhyāẏa who teaches in the Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand. Though the focus area of the book is Bengal region, but the book is helpful to understand caste as Hindu identity. The price of the book is a little costly, around RS 6000 in Indian currency, but I think you have that amount of money to purchase the book. I can give you the web link though...

Caste, culture, and hegemony: social ... - Google Book Search

Yes on the surface it seems that Neo Liberal free economy with its rapid urbanization is doing good as it continuously breaking the Hindu traditions, but at the same time it is actually making the rich richer and the poor poorer in economic terms. Industrialization in rural or semi-urban areas in india is actually increasing the amount of displacement of the poor families, most of whom belong to so called low castes. From the beginning, upper castes basically have not lived in rural areas, rather in cities, and the low castes in rural areas and they are heavily defendant on their agriculture. They cannot be urbanized overnight and snatching their livelihood away is not supportable. The barrel of guns cannot fully bring revolution, but it can pave the way for a revolution. Change has many dimensions.

 

[jeypore]

Yes on the surface it seems that Neo Liberal free economy with its rapid urbanization is doing good as it continuously breaking the Hindu traditions, but at the same time it is actually making the rich richer and the poor poorer in economic terms. Industrialization in rural or semi-urban areas in india is actually increasing the amount of displacement of the poor families, most of whom belong to so called low castes. From the beginning, upper castes basically have not lived in rural areas, rather in cities, and the low castes in rural areas and they are heavily defendant on their agriculture. They cannot be urbanized overnight and snatching their livelihood away is not supportable. The barrel of guns cannot fully bring revolution, but it can pave the way for a revolution. Change has many dimensions.

This alone shows that you know nothing about India's economy.

 

[Communist]

This alone shows that you know nothing about India's economy.

Then you tell me where i went wrong. You tell us what is happening in the Indian villages and what is happening in the cities and also in the townships or semi-urban areas along economic lines. If none can counter with logic and data, then the person should not go for one-line post.

By the way, do some people go for one line post just to increase the post number and to get high membership ranking?

 

[wtf]

Manusmriti is important particularly to understand the social fabric whereas Arthasastra is a vital text to know India's foreign relations and policies. We must not confuse them. The present economic structure is the result of the Gatt negotiations conducted during the times of PV Narasimha Rao and you know what the negotiations stood for.

I was initially surprised by knowing that you did not face any query about your caste, but then I realized you lived in india for a short span of time.
Yes on the surface it seems that Neo Liberal free economy with its rapid urbanization is doing good as it continuously breaking the Hindu traditions, but at the same time it is actually making the rich richer and the poor poorer in economic terms. Industrialization in rural or semi-urban areas in india is actually increasing the amount of displacement of the poor families, most of whom belong to so called low castes. From the beginning, upper castes basically have not lived in rural areas, rather in cities, and the low castes in rural areas and they are heavily defendant on their agriculture. They cannot be urbanized overnight and snatching their livelihood away is not supportable. The barrel of guns cannot fully bring revolution, but it can pave the way for a revolution. Change has many dimensions.

Thanks for the book link, will look it up.

A few nitpicks - I have lived for 27 years in India, out of which 10 were in cities. I don't think thats a short period (thats almost all my life

And about neo-liberalism and poor/rich divide. unhindered capitalism makes the rich richer, but with free trade leaves the poor as it is - hence making rich-poor divide wider. But it does not always make poor-poorer (eg: China).
Anyway I can't see an alternative to development.We tried Communism/Socialism and that did not work. At least what the current government is doing is liberalism with guaranteed minimum employment (Rs 150 a day is the minimum wages). I can live on that, in fact, I have lived on almost half of that.

And about the so called higher castes being city centric - I think you may have different view of how caste system works. Caste system in its most pernicious means that all the rural land is owned by the landlords who then set themselves up as high castes (that way they don't lose the land on marriage). The poor people work on the land (and end up being called lower caste). Historically it gave the so called high castes a huge motivation to stay away from cities. Cities are controlled by wealth that can be created and destroyed in a day - so inheritance, caste system etc. are irrelevant. Note that most of the industries in India are controlled by non-high castes, hence my guess that cities are the great levelers. Cities were for tradesmen (historically Vyshas, Parsis etc.) - nowadays for everyone, I guess. Caste system and Hinduism are concurrent, but not the same.

And personally, I am one of the displaced. I am from Kerala, which is nominally Communist (actually trade-unionist) and hence absolutely without industries. I have had to move to cities to look for jobs. And I don't think that was a bad thing. People living in villages and doing what their parents did won't bring progress (it will keep things the same). You have to move forward and take your country with you.

 

[Communist]

Thanks for the book link, will look it up.

A few nitpicks - I have lived for 27 years in India, out of which 10 were in cities. I don't think thats a short period (thats almost all my life

And about neo-liberalism and poor/rich divide. unhindered capitalism makes the rich richer, but with free trade leaves the poor as it is - hence making rich-poor divide wider. But it does not always make poor-poorer (eg: China).
Anyway I can't see an alternative to development.We tried Communism/Socialism and that did not work. At least what the current government is doing is liberalism with guaranteed minimum employment (Rs 150 a day is the minimum wages). I can live on that, in fact, I have lived on almost half of that.

And about the so called higher castes being city centric - I think you may have different view of how caste system works. Caste system in its most pernicious means that all the rural land is owned by the landlords who then set themselves up as high castes (that way they don't lose the land on marriage). The poor people work on the land (and end up being called lower caste). Historically it gave the so called high castes a huge motivation to stay away from cities. Cities are controlled by wealth that can be created and destroyed in a day - so inheritance, caste system etc. are irrelevant. Note that most of the industries in India are controlled by non-high castes, hence my guess that cities are the great levelers. Cities were for tradesmen (historically Vyshas, Parsis etc.) - nowadays for everyone, I guess. Caste system and Hinduism are concurrent, but not the same.

And personally, I am one of the displaced. I am from Kerala, which is nominally Communist (actually trade-unionist) and hence absolutely without industries. I have had to move to cities to look for jobs. And I don't think that was a bad thing. People living in villages and doing what their parents did won't bring progress (it will keep things the same). You have to move forward and take your country with you.

About the caste as Hindu identity, I think, I do not need to tell you any more if you just read Shekhar's book, 'Caste, Culture and Hegemony'.

Secondly yes you need to go to the Aryavarta or north India and spend a few months there to know the role of caste in village economy and politics. Yes some features are commonly found in Andhra Pradesh. Look, South India has always been different. The formation of the AIDMK was possible in Tamil Nadu but not in UP or Bihar or Gujarat. And thus it will be a mistake to see the entire India or all indian regions and their socio-economic fabrics through the prism of Kerala or some two cities. India is still a union by its constitution, India is a federal union and so India is not like a monolithic idealism.

And I appreciate your adventurism like America's Manifest Destiny. But you know what happened to the Biharis in Maharastra by Raj Thackerey's Marathi Asmita and what happened to the Bengalis in Assam during the Bangali Khedao movement. Yes you are lucky, but every one is not lucky like you and moreover people have families which is a hindrance to movement. India is not America and manifest destiny type mission will not work here. It will bring the result that village people with certain linguistic skills, agricultural knowledge and physical features will come to a city and will start residing in Bustis or slums and start begging as their primary occupation which one can see in Mumbai or in Noida. Its difficult man.

As for minimum wages this link is useful:

http://www.paycheck.in/main/officialminimumwages/questionsminimumwage

In most of the states RS 70/80 per day is the actual minimum wage. But the contractors reduce the money capitalizing ignorance of the laborers.

 

[jeypore]

Communist
Yes on the surface it seems that Neo Liberal free economy with its rapid urbanization is doing good as it continuously breaking the Hindu traditions, but at the same time it is actually making the rich richer and the poor poorer in economic terms.

Where did you get this saying “were rich gets richer and poor gets poorer.” American liberals, oh I am sorry Progressive now, sayings.

Industrialization in rural or semi-urban areas in india is actually increasing the amount of displacement of the poor families, most of whom belong to so called low castes. From the beginning, upper castes basically have not lived in rural areas, rather in cities, and the low castes in rural areas and they are heavily defendant on their agriculture.

Where did you get the idea of upper caste do not live in rural area. Think and do some research. Also when you speak of upper caste do you mean by money or caste system. Either ways both live in rural areas. For generation my families livelihood is by growing tobacco and my parents live and grew up in rural area. So I do not understand what the hell you are talking about here.

They cannot be urbanized overnight and snatching their livelihood away is not supportable. The barrel of guns cannot fully bring revolution, but it can pave the way for a revolution. Change has many dimensions.

Economic reform is a change to urbanize, and it takes time. And what is the comment about a Gun, well never mind!!

 

[wtf]

Then you tell me where i went wrong. You tell us what is happening in the Indian villages and what is happening in the cities and also in the townships or semi-urban areas along economic lines. If none can counter with logic and data, then the person should not go for one-line post.

Data, as always comes to the rescue.

Surjit Bhalla did a study on economic distribution and Gini index pre-liberalization and post. He concludes that inequality has not worsened by more than 2-3%. At the same time the country grew by >5% for10-12 years. So the rich got richer and poor also got richer (but not by as much as the rich). And with Manmohan Singh's guranteed employment program and educational reforms, the situation should be even better today (the study is from 2003). I am waiting for the latest IMF and UNDP study results to come out.


www.ncaer.org/popuppages/EventDetails/E10Jan2009/neemrana-presentation16.pdf

And his latest view on the subject (in human readable english) Why is inequality in India not dropping?

 

[Gulshan]

India is united. Your useless dreaming is the myth. Stop dreaming and start look at the reality.

 

[Gabbar]

India is united. Your useless dreaming is the myth. Stop dreaming and start look at the reality.

Argue with some logic and hard facts Gulshan. This noting but patriotic statement, not that there is anything wrong with that.



Is India united, yes. Does it have some problems due to its diverse cutlure, and beliefs, Yes.
You can say samething about Pakistan and China.
Pakistan has Bloach, Sindh and FATA problem.
China has Tibet and Chinese muslim problem.

As matter of fact Canada has that problem to, where french Canadians want thier own country.