Myth of United India -- Democracy or Hypocrisy

[Communist]

Dear Communist,
I thought you made a great start to a thread by asking for comments and providing pdf link etc. I assumed that you wanted a debate and was trying to convince others of you view point.

When another author questions it (saying the author is not competent), you proceed to get personal ? What purpose does it serve in a debate to call someone not worthy of getting an education ?

A better comment would have been to say "the author is not a historian, but a current events person" or something like that.

I am sure you have strong viewpoint, but if you are trying to convince others a little bit of openness may help .

Dear wtf,
I opened the thread for all members, including Pakistan and india, to share the viewpoints of the authors of those two articles. I do not open threads for reply posts always. I always read posts and sometimes post something as reply, sometimes open new threads and that is all I do.

I replied the person in the same manner the person had replied to me. I did not attack him personally by calling name or addressing directly. The person said,

Well I read the first paragraph and quit.....the person who cannt find find Indian history prior to 1000AD does not even worth my time


tx

And I replied, "Thank you. Some people are not worthy of getting education and reading good articles as well." There is nothing personal. The commentator is not an author, a member, and I am also not the author, a member, and thus it was talk between two members. And I said, "some people", which is not specifically directed to anyone. Then why should one take it personally?

 

[notsuperstitious]

Hey this has already been posted by MBI

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/20624-myth-united-india-democracy-hypocrisy.html

When it comes to hating the kaffir, he'll beat u hands down

 

[Communist]

Hey this has already been posted by MBI

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/20624-myth-united-india-democracy-hypocrisy.html

When it comes to hating the kaffir, he'll beat u hands down

Yes and that is why I also posted the Saffron Sarkar Raj so that you can also download this one. Now start reading the article. hands up..

 

[wtf]

Dear wtf,


And I replied, "Thank you. Some people are not worthy of getting education and reading good articles as well." There is nothing personal. The commentator is not an author, a member, and I am also not the author, a member, and thus it was talk between two members. And I said, "some people", which is not specifically directed to anyone. Then why should one take it personally?

Thanks, That's a good point. And I meant to say commentator (about Proud2Indian), not author. Typo.

My understanding was that the commentator was questioning the credibility of the Brasstacks article author, not your competence. So justifying the Brasstacks authors competence, or providing background may have been a better strategy to further your viewpoint.

Internet is a text media and it is easy to misunderstand - you may have said "some people" and may not have meant it personally, but the impression can be confusing. I am sorry if I misunderstood.

Anyway, my whole comment was based on the premise that you wanted to make sure others saw and understood the article. In that sense all the people who already believe that article are not your audience, since they are already "believers". You should have been trying to convince those that don't believe it - and it seems like Proud2Indian was the perfect person to try and convince. That is why I requested you to be open to comments.

As you said, "I don't open posts always for reply" - so it may have have been a case of misunderstood motives. Apologies, I'll quietly slink away

 

[Chanakyaa]

Yes and that is why I also posted the Saffron Sarkar Raj so that you can also download this one. Now start reading the article. hands up..

Do u have even a slight of understanding of India ?

You Might NOT Know that Rajj Thakery is from Maharastra and even there ( aprt from his "Paid" supporters ) he is widely unaccepted for his cheap politics ?

Moreover , This is Politics NOT the "Armed" Talibinasm , "Open"-"Uncontrolled" Talibanism in the affected regions of Pak and Afaganistan.

India has only ONE Raj do you even have the idea of How many Exist in the form of "Osamas" , "Lakhvi" "Dawood" ,"Masood Azhar" +++ All of which wont discriminate to target Pak or Indian Civilans.... Totally Free and atleast "Not in the Monitoring Hands".

 

[Communist]

Thanks, That's a good point. And I meant to say commentator (about Proud2Indian), not author. Typo.

My understanding was that the commentator was questioning the credibility of the Brasstacks article author, not your competence. So justifying the Brasstacks authors competence, or providing background may have been a better strategy to further your viewpoint.

Internet is a text media and it is easy to misunderstand - you may have said "some people" and may not have meant it personally, but the impression can be confusing. I am sorry if I misunderstood.

Anyway, my whole comment was based on the premise that you wanted to make sure others saw and understood the article. In that sense all the people who already believe that article are not your audience, since they are already "believers". You should have been trying to convince those that don't believe it - and it seems like Proud2Indian was the perfect person to try and convince. That is why I requested you to be open to comments.

As you said, "I don't open posts always for reply" - so it may have have been a case of misunderstood motives. Apologies, I'll quietly slink away

No no its OK. You do not need to seek apologies, because you did not do any wrong. You misunderstood, and it was not your deliberate attempt. Everybody misunderstands and it is not any offense.

 

[wtf]

Rate of interest

The Dharam Shastras give the sanction to realize the highest rate of interest from Shudras. (8/142 ibid.): “The Brahmins, the Kshatriyas, the Vaishya’s end the Shudras are entitled to pay the rate of interest 2, 3, 4 and 5 percent respectively.

That is interesting.

I am actually working on a paper on ancient Indian finance and was curious to read that. There are 2-3 records of old Indian interest rates. Narada/Brihaspati gives a detailed account in their 7th century work about all the interest rates mechanisms. They talk about compound interest, tools to calculate interest rates etc. etc. They mention 12% as an interest rate (compounded). They don't mention caste.

Later on around 11th century or so, someone (re)discovered the works of Manu and then came the caste based interest rates. (But again the rates of 2,3,4,5 were monthly interest rates in that, not annual!). There was a way out of this trap though, you could form a guild (Sreni) and then lend and borrow through them at a negotiated interest rate (Apparently anyone could form a guild). And some say that the interest rates represented a risk-adjusted rate for activities each guild -though I still see some touch of caste system in that period. (Oh and like Karl Marx said History did repeat itself as a tragedy

By the time of Akbarnama, the whole system of money was centralized. While earlier pretty much anyone could issue metal money, by Akbar's time it was much more centralized.

Would you know what "8/142 ibid." stands for? I am curious to read it.

Anyway, this post was totally off topic since this is a matter of financial history than the present world. But I figured you being a communist may have an interest in the tools to control capital in the ancient world.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Yes and that is why I also posted the Saffron Sarkar Raj so that you can also download this one. Now start reading the article. hands up..

No i won't

first prove to me that Ajmal Kasab is a hindu faced, kalava wearing Amar singh, A Sikh, as claimed on brasstacks. until then, i discount any rabid hatespeech on that site. only fair eh?

 

[Communist]

That is interesting.

I am actually working on a paper on ancient Indian finance and was curious to read that. There are 2-3 records of old Indian interest rates. Narada/Brihaspati gives a detailed account in their 7th century work about all the interest rates mechanisms. They talk about compound interest, tools to calculate interest rates etc. etc. They mention 12% as an interest rate (compounded). They don't mention caste.

Later on around 11th century or so, someone (re)discovered the works of Manu and then came the caste based interest rates. (But again the rates of 2,3,4,5 were monthly interest rates in that, not annual!). There was a way out of this trap though, you could form a guild (Sreni) and then lend and borrow through them at a negotiated interest rate (Apparently anyone could form a guild). And some say that the interest rates represented a risk-adjusted rate for activities each guild -though I still see some touch of caste system in that period. (Oh and like Karl Marx said History did repeat itself as a tragedy

By the time of Akbarnama, the whole system of money was centralized. While earlier pretty much anyone could issue metal money, by Akbar's time it was much more centralized.

Would you know what "8/142 ibid." stands for? I am curious to read it.

Anyway, this post was totally off topic since this is a matter of financial history than the present world. But I figured you being a communist may have an interest in the tools to control capital in the ancient world.

Very appreciating query you put forward. Yes I am interested in economics. During my college days I studied Adam Smith's 'The Wealth of Nations' and I became obsessed with economics. Later I read Marx and Lenin and particularly Lenin's 'Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism' got my special attention. If you want to learn more about current global economic scenario, please visit youtube and watch the videos of Zaid Hamid on Economic Terrorism.

Other parts you will find there.


Well, as for "8/142 ibid.", it means Manusmriti, Chapter 8, Page number 142.

To know about Shudras of Ancient India, I would like to recommend this one:

Śūdras in ancient India:
a social history of the lower order down to circa A.D. 600
by Ram Sharan Sharma
Published in 1980, Motilal Banarsidass (Delhi)

It will provide an introductory outline.

To know about Mughal Economic system, you must read Irfan Habib's 'The Agrarian System of Mughal India 1556-1707' which you will find in any Indian library.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Oh Come on Guys , Dicussing an Ancient History under "National Political Issues" , which is NOT a Political issue at all is completely waste of Time.

Next i only Hope, That George Bush ,will be writing about "Harappa" here and We shall again Discuss that in a "Defence Forum" which holds talks on Ultra Advanced F22s !

Two Points :

#1. Mind it The Time we are Talking about Pakistan didnt Exist .. and It was a Combined State.
A Lot of "negatives" can be said about each religion and civilization but i find it rediculous to Tell the decendentands of the Very Ancient "Developed" Civilizations of Harappa and MohanJodaro , when perhaps Majority of Humans were in Jungles.

#2. Thread Starter seems to be Interested in having Logical Discussion over History , Nothing Bad But , You Might NOT know that Even before the time this article explains the Caste was based on Trade and the caste was Interchangable. So a Brahmin Could Become Vaishya and Vice Versa.
More Over Girls were also Given the "Yagyapaveeth" ( Janau ) sanskar for beginning the studies , Though Now only Boys undergo this ceremony.

There is a "Sine Wave" of Good and Bad Practices in Every Culture.
Its Upon You wheather you consider the Peak or the Through But Both Exist and Its ONLY Upon You to see the Glass "Half Filled" or "Half Empty"

 

[Omar1984]

#1. Mind it The Time we are Talking about Pakistan didnt Exist

The Time we are talking about India didn't exist either.

 

[wtf]

Very appreciating query you put forward. Yes I am interested in economics. During my college days I studied Adam Smith's 'The Wealth of Nations' and I became obsessed with economics. Later I read Marx and Lenin and particularly Lenin's 'Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism' got my special attention. If you want to learn more about current global economic scenario, please visit youtube and watch the videos of Zaid Hamid on Economic Terrorism.

Ah Manusmriti - the text that refuses to die! It kept getting buried and rediscovered every so often in Indian history. And it is seriously retrogressive when compared to all the other economic systems prevalent at other parts of the country almost simultaneously (Most of them Lassaiz-Faire).

Thanks for the Zaid Hamid link, but I live on the east coast, so I get my economic advice from the Prophet of Doom himself (Nouriel Roubini .
I wouldn't say what happens today is economic terrorism, simply because what happens today is minuscule compared to what happened in the 18th century - nowadays its just jockeying for place, I think.

 

[Communist]

Oh Come on Guys , Dicussing an Ancient History under "National Political Issues" , which is NOT a Political issue at all is completely waste of Time.

Next i only Hope, That George Bush ,will be writing about "Harappa" here and We shall again Discuss that in a "Defence Forum" which holds talks on Ultra Advanced F22s !

Two Points :

#1. Mind it The Time we are Talking about Pakistan didnt Exist .. and It was a Combined State.
A Lot of "negatives" can be said about each religion and civilization but i find it rediculous to Tell the decendentands of the Very Ancient "Developed" Civilizations of Harappa and MohanJodaro , when perhaps Majority of Humans were in Jungles.

#2. Thread Starter seems to be Interested in having Logical Discussion over History , Nothing Bad But , You Might NOT know that Even before the time this article explains the Caste was based on Trade and the caste was Interchangable. So a Brahmin Could Become Vaishya and Vice Versa.
More Over Girls were also Given the "Yagyapaveeth" ( Janau ) sanskar for beginning the studies , Though Now only Boys undergo this ceremony.

There is a "Sine Wave" of Good and Bad Practices in Every Culture.
Its Upon You wheather you consider the Peak or the Through But Both Exist and Its ONLY Upon You to see the Glass "Half Filled" or "Half Empty"

First of all, the thread is not about ancient india, rather myth of a united india under the saffron banner and since myth relates itself to history, ancient times comes here with relevance.

Secondly, you said, "Mind it The Time we are Talking about Pakistan didnt Exist .. and It was a Combined State." Entirely wrong. I have serious doubt on your knowledge of history. There might not have been Pakistan, but there was no india as well because even the concept of united india was not there. Yes some hindu kings in ancient times might have conquered many parts, but could not keep them all intact for a long time, and it was only the Mughals who conquered and retained all parts intact for a long time almost thousand years, before the British.

Caste came from race or 'varna', conquered races proclaimed themselves upper castes and branded defeated races as lower castes. Since caste has always been inseparably linked with the rulers and the ruled, castes denote occupational status.

If you do not believe me, go to your top university, JNU, and ask any professor of history, you will get the same answer. You can also go to the Anthropological Survey of India and ask any researcher, you will get the same answer. Now if you go to Narendra Modi... that is up to you...

 

[Communist]

Ah Manusmriti - the text that refuses to die! It kept getting buried and rediscovered every so often in Indian history.

Look, Manusmriti and Kautilya's Arthasastra are those books that will never die. Why? Because indian Hindus follow their traditions. Can you deny that? No. India is of primarily a village agricultural society. India is not entirely Mumbai or Bangalore. The urban areas, where you live, constitute a very small portion of the present Indian map. In villages people still live in the way that may seem to you obsolete. That is a sharp contrast. Some indian forum members do not want to believe that... i do not know how educated they are, and what kinds of education they have received. If someone studied Hotel Management, then it is natural that the person can hardly have knowledge on History or International Relations. The person should try to know more. But the person must not always say whatever I know is enough and whatever i know is absolute truth.

If you read Manusmriti and Arthasastra and then read some good books and magazines like Economic and Political Weekly and Frontline, which are indian magazines and try to examine matters in the light of those books, you will understand everything.

 

[wtf]

#1. Mind it The Time we are Talking about Pakistan didnt Exist .. and It was a Combined State.
A Lot of "negatives" can be said about each religion and civilization but i find it rediculous to Tell the decendentands of the Very Ancient "Developed" Civilizations of Harappa and MohanJodaro , when perhaps Majority of Humans were in Jungles.

#2. Thread Starter seems to be Interested in having Logical Discussion over History , Nothing Bad But , You Might NOT know that Even before the time this article explains the Caste was based on Trade and the caste was Interchangable. So a Brahmin Could Become Vaishya and Vice Versa.
More Over Girls were also Given the "Yagyapaveeth" ( Janau ) sanskar for beginning the studies , Though Now only Boys undergo this ceremony.

I agree with point 1 - at this time there was pretty much no Islamic history in India (except may be in the trading ports). But 8th - 11th century was when they were at their best in the middle east. By the time they came to India-Pakistan the glory of Islamic trade had faded and Venice had picked up from where they left off. That unfortunately seems to be the history of old world - Lot of great people discovering a lot of good ideas and then completely losing the original thought. Then later on someone who copied from them re-introducing the idea back to them (Like the Arab-Indian numerals, Idea of Bonds/Loans etc. were all discovered in the east and then reintroduced).



Trade and caste being interchangeable - that practice seemed to have been prevalent in different parts of the country in different times. The Pallava's were cool with that, but some others were not. Buddhism/Jainism were great tools for social change too (and during some points, large tracts of India was one of them).
Caste system is often intertwined with old India's economic history. Nevertheless, that should not stop us from trying to entirely rid India of the last traces of the system.