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My PAK-FA analysis

Sir Growler,

Its MLU,

And sukhoi has reached its mid life, I mean by 2014 around it will, So the upgrade is necessary.

I guess you did not comprehend my post!

Ok let me make it easy for you guys to under stand!

Su-30"MKI" not MK was introduced in 2002. Right now as we speak IAF operates about 100-110 Su-30MKI. NOT ALL 110 MKIs were inducted in 2002 so you can not call it a 10 years old plane or in 2015 a 15 year old MKI fleet. 70% of current MKI fleet is very very new and not worth giving MLU!
AGAIN. current MKI fleet will stay as it is for the next decade until their 20-25+ million dollars worth of equipments have lived their life.
 
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Growler.

You are correct THIS IS NOT A MLU

Because MLU can only be given to planes like F16/AB MIG29M etc that have seen 20 years of hard service WHERE THE TECHNOLOGY be it radar or ECM etc need up dating and the engines overhauling...

The SU30MKI is not a MLU its just adding more teeth to a already powerful plane which is benefitting from 5th generation technology off the pak fa prgramme.

The russians see that the flankers have big RCS and the PESA radars can be improved upon by using their new ibris AESA radar which is nearly ready.

Nearly all the late 4 generation fighters are having improvements very quickly.

France has approx 60 Rafael in service but are now going to add a new AESA radar to future blocks

Typhoon F1 & F2 nos 60 planes in RAF but F3 Will include better STRIKE options and a new AESA radar in near future

Like wise the SU30MKI & SU35 of India & Russia are set to receive new smartskin concept & aesa radars between 2013- 2014 onwards.. and new KH172 NOVATAR bvr missles.

This is all a spin off from PAK FA project.

Incidentally IAF next 100 SU30MKI WILL BE FAR MORE POTENT then the first 120 as each tranche is being improved... upon.
 
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Nope. JF-17 and LCA both started with a low cost plane to a mid cost plane as they will eventually evolve as also both air forces requirement have changes specially for Pakistan when IAF will toss 4 and 4.5 generation planes in large numbers.

Yes it is like that. thats the whole point of this project.
Kindly read my post again. I clearly said "STEALTHY" not "STEALTH"! EF-2000 Rafale are stealthy not STEALTH. JF-17 can achieve some stealthy capability such as a work on nose like F-35 DSI that already it has and RAM coatings. This is just my opinion what i am going to say now.. JF-17 is by no means anywhere close to F-35 in terms of technology but JF-17 has some similarities in design and I am not trying to say JF-17 has a stealth design.
Both planes have a engine layout pretty much the same like one engine and two air intakes on the side not like Flanker or mig-29.



For the first point - IAF will have 4th gen planes - All will go through extensive upgrades to make them 4++=4.5 gen, the older ones will be discarded. The Tejas is a 4.5 gen airplane, go read up anywhere and you will know.

Second point - WRONG - with similarities - it does not mean the flight characteristics of the planes will be the same - each and every tiny bit of modification requires careful planning - you cant just take a plane and change it overnight to make it into a stealthy plane - a stealthy plane uses a lot of composites too which means the JF will have to change the airframe materials - EVEN IF IT IS POSSIBLE - I doubt PAF would wanna spend that kind of money which will possibly push its cost upto 25-30 mil a piece just like the Tejas - I dont think PAF has that kind of money to spend on it defense UPGRADES to push the price up of a plane by 60-70%. - Dream on if you may still!

And here we have a person so OPTIMISTIC that he thinks that a production plane like JF (3.5 to 4 gen) has the ability to be upgraded and made changes to in future batches but will not consider the same for PAK-FA - HYPOCRITE and a clear case of SOUR GRAPES!!!! I mean HELL HE JUST COMPARED THE AIRFRAME WITH A 5th GEN PLANE LOL!!! That is the best of OPTIMISM AND NATIONALISM!!! :rofl::rofl:

TALK SERIOUS NOT BS - :disagree::disagree::hitwall::hitwall:
 
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"The Tejas is a 4.5 gen airplane "

This is actually a lot more true than people might think. As of now the Tejas is still undergoing trials, and much can be changed.

Due to the inability of the Tejas to meet the Indian Air Staff requirements the India Air Force will not order any more Mark 1 aircraft other than the original 40 aircraft it had ordered in 2005. It is still considering an order of up to 125 aircraft when a re-designed Mark 2 is developed.The Mark 2 will have a more powerful engine, refined aerodynamics and replacing other parts to reduce obsolescence according to an IAF spokesman. The Indian Navy Mark 2 version of the Tejas will be capable of much shorter take off and landing distance from an aircraft carrier.

IAF has stalled the program and redefined it's so many times that they will only induct it when it has AESA radar, better missiles and a better engine, to be able to deal with the extra weight being added.

PAF should take heed and keep evolving JF-17, because if it can't compete with it's future rival than it does little in terms of being a force multiplier.
 
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@gambit: from what I understood; the LO aircraft have very small RCS (like a bird) and is filtered out by the firmware as clutter. but... the clutter/birds wont be moving as fast as an airplane. so if we give the radar a firmware upgrade to show "fast moving clutter" on the radar, will the stealth of these planes be compromised?
One of the major issues with clutter is its distributive property...

RADAR CLUTTER IN AN AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM. PART 1. CLUTTER PHYSICS,
The report provides an analysis and physical interpretation of the various mechanisms giving rise to radar clutter. Both volume-distributed clutter (rain, chaff, etc.) and surface-distributed clutter (terrain, sea, etc.)

So how does this property related to a bird and its RCS?

The dynamics and radar cross section density of chaff clouds
A new chaff cloud model is described which is based on fundamental principles with modifications based on laboratory observations. Excellent approximations to the exact physical model have been developed which can rapidly predict the chaff fiber density and orientation as a function of location, time and fiber characteristics. Using this Information, the time varying RCS density is determined for any frequency and polarization anywhere within the chaff cloud. The results are consistent with full scale observations, and the computational speed allows the model to be integrated into existing real time radar simulations.
Note the highlighted.

I pointed out before here that radar detect birds by more by their beaks than by their bodies, of which the latter with its curves and feathers are natural absorbers. The problem here is that in order to detect birds, insects and rain, the RCS for these items are so low that to detect them from afar, we cannot rely on individual RCS but upon the cumulative effects of large volumes of bird beaks and the result is a sort of cloud on a radar scope and whose behavior is that of a flock of bird that we determine to be birds.

How NEXRAD sees the atmosphere
Birds typically fly at least 10-15 knots faster than wind speeds, and not necessarily downwind. On the other hand, insects, precipitation, and other aerial entities, are wind-blown. They generally move at the same speed and in the same direction as the wind. Targets moving at least 10 knots faster than the prevailing wind, or moving in crosswind or headwind conditions, are almost always birds.
In order to distinguish on a radar scope an individual bird, and it is possible to do so, the bird would have to be practically within visual horizon. That does not mean we can see the sparrow at the horizon. Our eyes are not that refined. It just mean that the sparrow is not beyond the visual horizon. Our eyes cannot make out the sparrow but the radar can. However, at this close range, the hostile aircraft has already dropped its bombs.

RCS density calculation is necessary if we are to detect birds (plural) and track their migration patterns. Same for insect swarms. Same for rain via clouds. Birds, insects and rain mass are called 'volume clutter'. RCS density is RCS per unit volume, meaning the overall mass is broken down into smaller parts and these parts will have their RCS calculated. If a single bird is separated from the flying mass, it will be quickly lost from radar, despite the system's lowered clutter rejection threshold. Remember...The system is looking for bird-like RCS but is also looking at around triple km distance.

Airborne clutter, especially with birds and insects, are not constant. From one moment, some birds will separate themselves from the mass. The next moment they may rejoin and perhaps even new birds will add their individual RCS to the mass, effectively increasing the mass overall density, making on-the-fly RCS density calculation by the radar resource intensive.

An F-22, or several F-22s for that matter, at several hundreds km from target, will have its bird-like RCS part of this distributive clutter and will be nearly impossible to distinguish from the real birds despite having the greater Doppler component. Doppler separation works best when there is a clear RCS difference between objects. But when this attacker is close to the target, then indeed the target will detect and track this 'bird'. Of course, it will be too late.

Surface clutter is also a great hiding place for current generation of US radar low observable aircrafts. We know very well how a city will look on a scope and essentially every city in the world has a unique RCS base upon the city's architecture.

Giza - Radar Picture of Giza
The side-looking radar illuminates the scene from the top, the two sides of the pyramids facing the radar reflect most of the energy back to the antenna and appear radar bright; the two sides away from the radar reflect less energy back and appear dark Two additional pyramids can be seen left of center in the lower portion of the image. The modern development in the desert on the left side of the image is the Sixth of October City, an area of factories and residences started by Anwar Sadat to relieve urban crowding.
Note the highlighted, it is very important.

Corner reflectors from man-made objects will appear 'radar bright', the Giza Pyramids just happened to be so electronically prominent because of their physical size. Same for the Eiffel Tower in Paris. But what make the Eiffel Tower even more unique than the Giza Pyramids is its metal lattice structure. To the average military radar, the Eiffel Tower is practically a trumpet blown by the great Miles Davis. Any city whose urban areas have chain link fences will have extraordinary scintillating bright spots on the ground due to fences' lattice structures. A flight of F-35s, even with their high Doppler components, will have their bird-like RCS masked by these 'radar bright' flashes.

This is why these aircrafts are so dangerous.
 
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Growler.

You are correct THIS IS NOT A MLU

Because MLU can only be given to planes like F16/AB MIG29M etc that have seen 20 years of hard service WHERE THE TECHNOLOGY be it radar or ECM etc need up dating and the engines overhauling...
You have confirmed that you lack comprehension and lack any military knowledge outside your small bubble.
MLU is a common term used for any military unit that needs to be upgraded with most of its systems replaced. A quick change in radar or engine is not considered a MLU but a small upgrade.
The SU30MKI is not a MLU its just adding more teeth to a already powerful plane which is benefitting from 5th generation technology off the pak fa prgramme.
Seriously your posts have so much nonsense and fanboy claims that it makes the other person barf... did you read my previous posts? can you comprehend it or do you lack capability?
 
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You have confirmed that you lack comprehension and lack any military knowledge outside your small bubble.
MLU is a common term used for any military unit that needs to be upgraded with most of its systems replaced. A quick change in radar or engine is not considered a MLU but a small upgrade.

Seriously your posts have so much nonsense and fanboy claims that it makes the other person barf... did you read my previous posts? can you comprehend it or do you lack capability?

OK - So what if he is wrong - does not matter but at least he has the b**** to admit it - Do you??

I see a lot of your claims here which are pure BS - Like comparing a 5th gen plane to a 3.5-4 gen plane-talking lotsa nonsense without knowing the facts - Eg. calling the new acquisitions of IAF as 4th gen - any concrete proof for that?, saying PAK-FA guys did not focus on stealth as much without knowing the parameters and then discarding any improvisation on the basic design - I believe or I hope even Gambit is convinced that changes can happen - but you nah!!

It seems all your claims are more FANBOY claims than anyone else's and you yourself are actually living in a small "BUBBLE" of yours with no understanding of the WORLD around you!!! - evident from eg 1 given above.

Also - can you give me a time frame as to how long was the Block 60 introduced after the Block 52 of the F-16? or from Block 40 to Block 52?- the question itself should clarify as to whether an Upgrade can happen in this time frame or not and whether air forces around the world go in for such upgrades?

I recommend you think before you write else as I told you before I will definitely tether your logic and conclusions!!!!:taz::taz::taz:
 
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For the first point - IAF will have 4th gen planes - All will go through extensive upgrades to make them 4++=4.5 gen, the older ones will be discarded. The Tejas is a 4.5 gen airplane, go read up anywhere and you will know.
Total BS.
Mirage-2000H are not getting MLU only Mig-29 and by no means that will be considered a 4.5 generation fighter. Dont for get PAF is also getting F-16 upgrade.
IAF retired air marshal BK Ghokale commented that LCA will be inducted in 3 tranches. MKI MKII MKIII. The MKI and MKII will be underpowered LCAs without AESA radars and Kavir engine meaning the required numbers of MKI and II will be by no means a 4.5 generation fighter and only by 2020+ will their be MKIII with AESA kavir engine be ready. Thats his words and a common sense to believe that first 80 or so batch of LCA can not be classified as 4.5 generation fighter.
PAF at the moment has signed a contract for only 150 JF-17s. A deal worth almost a billion dollars with French will be signed very soon to provide Air to air missiles radars and avionics for 100 JF-17s after 50 basic JF-17s will be produced in 2012.
Second point - WRONG - with similarities - it does not mean the flight characteristics of the planes will be the same - each and every tiny bit of modification requires careful planning - you cant just take a plane and change it overnight to make it into a stealthy plane - a stealthy plane uses a lot of composites too which means the JF will have to change the airframe materials - EVEN IF IT IS POSSIBLE - I doubt PAF would wanna spend that kind of money which will possibly push its cost upto 25-30 mil a piece just like the Tejas - I dont think PAF has that kind of money to spend on it defense UPGRADES to push the price up of a plane by 60-70%. - Dream on if you may still!
BS. read my post again you pathological liar.
 
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^^^ Why what about F-22 Raptor, Aim high Speak less, do More...
 
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OK - So what if he is wrong - does not matter but at least he has the b**** to admit it - Do you??

I see a lot of your claims here which are pure BS - Like comparing a 5th gen plane to a 3.5-4 gen plane-talking lotsa nonsense without knowing the facts - Eg. calling the new acquisitions of IAF as 4th gen - any concrete proof for that?, saying PAK-FA guys did not focus on stealth as much without knowing the parameters and then discarding any improvisation on the basic design - I believe or I hope even Gambit is convinced that changes can happen - but you nah!!

It seems all your claims are more FANBOY claims than anyone else's and you yourself are actually living in a small "BUBBLE" of yours with no understanding of the WORLD around you!!! - evident from eg 1 given above.

Also - can you give me a time frame as to how long was the Block 60 introduced after the Block 52 of the F-16? or from Block 40 to Block 52?- the question itself should clarify as to whether an Upgrade can happen in this time frame or not and whether air forces around the world go in for such upgrades?

I recommend you think before you write else as I told you before I will definitely tether your logic and conclusions!!!!:taz::taz::taz:
I am fully convinced what a loser indian fanboys are just to satisfy their indian ego. the biggest BS is to classify JF-17 as 3.5 generation and LCA a 4.5. yaa go ahead indians. show us how low life you guys are. narrow minded who dont think beyond their super power super shukti indian bubble.
 
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Total BS.
Mirage-2000H are not getting MLU only Mig-29 and by no means that will be considered a 4.5 generation fighter. Dont for get PAF is also getting F-16 upgrade.
IAF retired air marshal BK Ghokale commented that LCA will be inducted in 3 tranches. MKI MKII MKIII. The MKI and MKII will be underpowered LCAs without AESA radars and Kavir engine meaning the required numbers of MKI and II will be by no means a 4.5 generation fighter and only by 2020+ will their be MKIII with AESA kavir engine be ready. Thats his words and a common sense to believe that first 80 or so batch of LCA can not be classified as 4.5 generation fighter.
PAF at the moment has signed a contract for only 150 JF-17s. A deal worth almost a billion dollars with French will be signed very soon to provide Air to air missiles radars and avionics for 100 JF-17s after 50 basic JF-17s will be produced in 2012.
BS. read my post again you pathological liar.

BAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Wat a loser!! - There are no plans revealed for an MKIII - LOL

The MK-II as of now will have the GE-F414 or the EJ200, the winner will most likely take the MRCA too - as for whoever you mentioned probably did not have much Idea but here take this link and go read up to get out of your "SELF CONFORMITY SYNDROME" - LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence

The Kaveri has been de-linked from the Tejas lol!! - LOSER!

The engines are GE-F404 IN20 which are better than the ones on the prototype you IDIOT. The test pilot recently confirmed that many of the problems plaguing the Tejas seemed to disappear - not to mention that it handles better than the MIRAGE (Dr Subramaniyum - head of ADA)

The MK2 will enter service by 2014 - HAL will produce the planes and deliver the 40 on order by 2013 with GE-F404 IN20 after which it will re-vamp the entire line to produce the MK2 by 2014 with EJ200 or F414. SO THE ONLY UNDERPOWERED ONES WILL BE the FIRST 40 or 2 squads.

READ UR POST AGAIN - IN THE FUTURE WHEN IAF..... the planes you counted are very very less in numbers - IAF is not like PAF who does not have money to buy MORE.

As for UR "JF" aka "everyone knows what":rofl::rofl:

is nowhere close to in comparison with the TEJAS - even in its present form the TEJAS is better in all regards - compare T/W, Weapons type, RCS - it still is a more potent platform better than ur JF. Does the JF have any composites, the RCS of JF is 3m2 (what I have heard) RCS of Tejas is confirmed to be a third of the standard fighter jet i.e 1.66m2. many of the Tejas tech has gone into the MKI so clearly tech from a 4th gen will not go into a 4.5 gen plane.

The deal with the FRENCH- TALK WHEN IT IS SIGNED - and let us know what they gave you for $1 Bn for 150 planes LOL!!!

GET WATEVER MISSILES - Its not that only you have them - we have them tooo and many more in numbers!!! - LOL!!

and yea how many upgraded F-16s do you have??? or even J-10s /??? compare it with the 230 odd MKIs U know the answer to a fight b/w them - plus 126-200 MRCAs, 250 PAK-FAs, 160+ TEJAS - ALL ARE 4++ gen planes and future ACQUISITIONS OF IAF - WHERE DOES PAF STAND - These are confirmed Figures! ANY CONFIRMED FIGURES FROM PAF!!!

You LOSER U COMPARED A 3 (UR CHINESE BROS SAY ITS A 3rd GEN Design) or 4 GEN AIRFRAME WITH A 5th GEN FIGHTER and expecting ppl to believe that the changes you suggested are feasible - THEY ARE NOT!!

NOW PO and come back with concrete proof to back your claims!

SELF DELUDED IDIOT!
 
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I am fully convinced what a loser indian fanboys are just to satisfy their indian ego. the biggest BS is to classify JF-17 as 3.5 generation and LCA a 4.5. yaa go ahead indians. show us how low life you guys are. narrow minded who dont think beyond their super power super shukti indian bubble.

WE DONT HAVE TO THINK BEYOND WAT YOU SUGGESTED - YOU TAKE CARE OF UR OWN SELF DELUSION FIRST!

And yeah you will find the AESA info in that blog too - it will be on the BLOCK 2 of TEJAS - OH MAN - WAT ARE U GUYS GOING TO DO!! SHIIIIT!!

BAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
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BAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
Well i do not have to remind myself that i am talking to a mental case loser with a peanut size brain.
I am done replying to your useless post because i do know after all you are mentally retarded and you are gonna have hard time excepting reality.
 
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