Muslims in South Asia that claim Punjabi/Sindhi ancestry

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Have you seen Iranians bro? Googoosh. Raza Shah Pahlavi. Rouhani.

Tell me which Arain looks like Iranians? Zia ul Haq? Bhutto? Sultan Rahi?

Have you seen ahemdinijad, mosadegh and so on? Im talkin about in general.

Let me be honest with you. The only people who are phenotypically Iranian in Pakistan are Pashtuns and the Gilgit Baltistanis. Even the Baloch who speak an Iranian language are phenotypically Indic. I'm talking science here, not feel good stuff like Urdu and Persian are sem2sem languages. We are phenotypically, linguistically and culturally closer to South Asia (Northwest and North) than to Iran or Central Asia. It's a hard pill to swallow for us but it's necessary.

Whaaat?

Have you seen Iranians bro? Googoosh. Raza Shah Pahlavi. Rouhani.

Tell me which Arain looks like Iranians? Zia ul Haq? Bhutto? Sultan Rahi?

Let me be honest with you. The only people who are phenotypically Iranian in Pakistan are Pashtuns and the Gilgit Baltistanis. Even the Baloch who speak an Iranian language are phenotypically Indic. I'm talking science here, not feel good stuff like Urdu and Persian are sem2sem languages. We are phenotypically, linguistically and culturally closer to South Asia (Northwest and North) than to Iran or Central Asia. It's a hard pill to swallow for us but it's necessary.

If we talk phenotype than even sindhis are distinct than indians, you are welcome to read Richard Burtons works on anthropology..

That said no offence but karachiites themselves (in general) look distinct than native Pakistanis..

Have you seen Iranians bro? Googoosh. Raza Shah Pahlavi. Rouhani.

Tell me which Arain looks like Iranians? Zia ul Haq? Bhutto? Sultan Rahi?

Let me be honest with you. The only people who are phenotypically Iranian in Pakistan are Pashtuns and the Gilgit Baltistanis. Even the Baloch who speak an Iranian language are phenotypically Indic. I'm talking science here, not feel good stuff like Urdu and Persian are sem2sem languages. We are phenotypically, linguistically and culturally closer to South Asia (Northwest and North) than to Iran or Central Asia. It's a hard pill to swallow for us but it's necessary.

Also bro Baloch ppl come in several “colors” just like Pashtuns.

In Karachi we mostly see is Makranis (they mixed too) followed by what you locals call “irani baloch” & Sindhis and than Seriekis... and even among us we have several types.. including the brahuis who themselves are mixed with paternal lineage being baloch and maternal allegedly dravidian (there is quiet a folk tale behind that).

P.S Reza Shah wasnt really “white” neither are iranians...


And here is Reza Pehlavis son:

Dude looks like Shah Mehmood Qureshis twin lol.

 

[Cliftonite]

Have you seen ahemdinijad, mosadegh and so on? Im talkin about in general.



Whaaat?


If we talk phenotype than even sindhis are distinct than indians, you are welcome to read Richard Burtons works on anthropology..

That said no offence but karachiites themselves (in general) look distinct than native Pakistanis..

Yes yes, we Karachiites are gangus. Doesn't take more than a few minutes to link us to Indians. And then you wonder why MQM took hold?

Anyways, moving on.

Let's talk anthropology. India is not a monolith. The South is very Dravidian, they're what you call the original inhabitants of India. They are what you liken to a stereotypical Indian in your feeble racist mind. The East and North East has influence from Asia, again fairly obvious in the chinky eyes. The West and North West however has had some influence from West Asia. This is not a Pakistan centric phenomenon, you'll find Indian Sikhs and high caste Gujarati and Rajasthanis with a slightly more West Asian look. Check out Nakuul Mehta and also Karandeep Vohra aka Sunny Leone. They do not look "Indian", the stereotypical gangu image you have in your mind.

So if there are some Sindhis and Punjabis who don't look stereotypically Mallu and gangu, it doesn't make them Iranic. Iranians are phenotypically strikingly Middle Eastern. Someone would be stupid to confuse a Sindhi with an Iranian. Get over your self loathing.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

No bro. I am well versed on this topic.



Yes yes, we Karachiites are gangus. Doesn't take more than a few minutes to link us to Indians. And then you wonder why MQM took hold?

Never said that, heck I dont troll indians on the subject, every race is beautiful but again what I said is true.


Anyways, moving on.

Let's talk anthropology. India is not a monolith. The South is very Dravidian, they're what you call the original inhabitants of India. They are what you liken to a stereotypical Indian in your feeble racist mind.

The East and North East has influence from Asia, again fairly obvious in the chinky eyes. The West and North West however has had some influence from West Asia. This is not a Pakistan centric phenomenon, you'll find Indian Sikhs and high caste Gujarati and Rajasthanis with a slightly more West Asian look. Check out Nakuul Mehta and also Karandeep Vohra aka Sunny Leone. They do not look "Indian", the stereotypical gangu image you have in your mind.

Same can be said bout Pak, and even Pakistani ethnic groups, even among Pashtuns several tribes have different origins. The highlanders of FATA, the Gilzais, Afridis and so on.

Im not sure about who nakkul mehta is but even sunny leone isnt from central or south india, she herself is a panjabi sikh.
One can see this white washing at play at bollywood most of which is made up of panjabis and pathans.. am I wrong bro? Compare them to lets say Bhojpuri film industry.

So if there are some Sindhis and Punjabis who don't look stereotypically Mallu and gangu, it doesn't make them Iranic. Iranians are phenotypically strikingly Middle Eastern. Someone would be stupid to confuse a Sindhi with an Iranian. Get over your self loathing.

Not sure what you are trying to say, We can find pretty dark etc people among panjabis, iranians, arabs etc too (infact take a look at joint ex between Pak and Saudi military)... but in general a Panjabis or Sindhis dont look like biharis, UP/CPiites either.

No need to take offence bro.. im not super white or racist... lol

 

[Cliftonite]

Never said that, heck I dont troll indians on the subject, every race is beautiful but again what I said is true.


Anyways, moving on.


Same can be said bout Pak, and even Pakistani ethnic groups, even among Pashtuns several tribes have different origins. The highlanders of FATA, the Gilzais, Afridis and so on.

Im not sure about who nakkul mehta is but even sunny leone isnt from central or south india, she herself is a panjabi sikh.
One can see this white washing at play at bollywood most of which is made up of panjabis and pathans.. am I wrong bro? Compare them to lets say Bhojpuri film industry.



Not sure what you are trying to say, We can find pretty dark etc people among panjabis, iranians, arabs etc too (infact take a look at joint ex between Pak and Saudi military)... but in general a Panjabis or Sindhis dont look like biharis, UP/CPiites either.

No need to take offence bro.. im not super white or racist... lol

That.is.what.I.am.saying.

As NorthWest South Asian, you fall in your own cluster. Which includes Sikhs and Rajputs. Nobody is going to say Sunny Leone is phenotypically same as Golshifteh Farahani or Googoosh. Saba Qamar and Sunny Leone can be considered phenotypically similar. Stop likening Pakistanis to Iranians, Afghanis, Chughtais and Halagu Khans. Be proud of who you are. Is all.

 

[El Sidd]

Dude looks like Shah Mehmood Qureshis twin lol.

So does Raj Babbar.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

That.is.what.I.am.saying.

As NorthWest South Asian, you fall in your own cluster. Which includes Sikhs and Rajputs. Nobody is going to say Sunny Leone is phenotypically same as Golshifteh Farahani or Googoosh. Saba Qamar and Sunny Leone can be considered phenotypically similar. Stop likening Pakistanis to Iranians, Afghanis, Chughtais and Halagu Khans. Be proud of who you are. Is all.

Im sorry but 50% of Afghanistan itself shares ethnic connection to Pakistan and so does Iran (though a small minority in iranian case).

As for phenotypes etc, somebody shared the map below here:

That.is.what.I.am.saying.

As NorthWest South Asian, you fall in your own cluster. Which includes Sikhs and Rajputs. Nobody is going to say Sunny Leone is phenotypically same as Golshifteh Farahani or Googoosh. Saba Qamar and Sunny Leone can be considered phenotypically similar. Stop likening Pakistanis to Iranians, Afghanis, Chughtais and Halagu Khans. Be proud of who you are. Is all.

Also bro, I didnt claim awans being iranian, but merely look different than jatts/rajputs in general.. its you whose claiming otherwise.

And yes Im a Proud Pakistani and proud Baloch.. I dont have any inferiority complex but yes I wouldnt want to be tagged with a bihari or a marathi etc.

 

[Naofumi]

Im not really convinced since these are not proven.

Oh dear, these are the recorded claims by British Arains used to make in early colonial period, I don't know what's their to prove.

Awans are exclusively Muslims. Even before Google my father told me that we are Qutb Shahi Awans, our ancestor is Qutb Shah who invaded India as a General in Mehmood Ghaznavi's army and later settled in Potohar region along with his sons.

Here is a brief info about Awans:

Who were Awans and how did they reach India? Sultan Hamid Ali writes in his book "Manaqib-e-Sultani" that Awans are descendants of Hazrat Ali Karam Allah Wajhul Kareem. When Sadaats (Holy Prophet's progeny through Hazrat Fatima Razi Allah Anha) left Arab due to troubles and started living in different areas of Iran and Turkistan, the Awan tribe helped them in that time of trouble, as they were their close relatives, that is why, their family name changed from Alvis and Hashmis to Awans which means "those who helped the Sadaats". Sadaats continued their religious obligations of preaching Islam, even when, they left Arab but Awans indulged in wars and battles and captured Harrat. Qutb Shah, the ancestor of Awans, died while he was the ruler of Harrat. The title 'Shah' is usually a part of the names of Sadaats but Awans also use this title.

When Sadaats migrated to Kharasan, Awans accompanied them and entered Punjab through river Indus and the mountains of Kala Bagh. Here also Sadaats remained cut off with material statuses and kept engaged in religious preaching, thus Bukharies in Uch Sharif, Gillanis in Bhot Mubarik, Shirazis in Chohan Saidan Shah and Hamadani Sadaats in Danda Shah Billawal guided people towards Islam and benefited them. While Awans captured Kala Bagh and occupied the Hindu forts of Malik Dhani, Potowar, Koh Pakharo, Valley of Son Sakesar, Koh Patao, Koh Tawa, Koh Khaon and settled here. The Hindus of these areas accepted Islam due to the influence of Awans. Now Awans are in majority in these Areas.

Professor Ahmad Saeed Hamadani has elaborated about Awans and their forefather Mir Qutb Shah in his book "Ahwal-o-Maqamat-e-Sultan Bahoo", he says:

"When Sultan Mehmood Ghaznavi left for India to attack Somnath, a troop of Alvis headed by Mir Qutb Shah (or Mir Qutb Haider) requested to accompany him. Sultan Mehmood allowed them and entitled them 'Awan'. Afterwards, they became known by this title…..Awans fought valiantly in this battle, so Sultan Mehmood was very happy with them. When they returned back, Mir Qutb Shah (or Mir Qutb Haider) requested Sultan to allow them to crush the Rajput landlords and Nawabs who ruled other areas of the country. Sultan accepted the request, so Mir Qutb Haider attacked the Janjuwas and Chohans who ruled the surrounding areas of present Potowar and Kohistan-e-Namak and drove them down the mountains. Awans captured and got settled in the beautiful valleys of these mountains. Now they were known as Qutb Shahi Awan".
Mir Qutb Shah is actually the person after whom Awans are called Qutb Shahi Awans. Under his leadership, Awans joined the army of Sultan Mehmood Ghaznavi and then settled in the valley of Saun Sakesar. Professor Ahmad Saeed Hamadani writes;

"Mir Qutb Shah's genealogy traces back to Hazrat Imam Mohammad Bin Hanfia Razi Allah Anhu, son of Hazrat Ali Karam Allah Wajhu. His ancestors helped and protected Fatmi Sadaats, fought for them and thus reached Afghanistan with them and settled in Harrat. Afterwards, they joined the army of Sultan Mehmood in his reign. The progeny of Mir Qutb Shah flourished in Potowar, they got the daughters of the defeated Rajas converted into Muslims, married them and had children. These newly converted Muslims and the tribes, who earlier came with Qutb Shah were now relatives, as they got inter married and had children. They related themselves to Mir Qutb Shah who was the source of link between them and the most famous and outstanding person among them. Even now, they call themselves Qutb Shahi Awans, wherever they reside. Although, it is known that Mir Qutb Shah lived in Anga in the Valley of Saun, Tehsil Naushehra, district Khaushab, Punjab Pakistan, but nothing about the year of his arrival, period of his stay here, year of death, or his shrine is mentioned by the writers".

Brother, your cited "historians" are no historian at all. Both of them are Islamic preacher of some kind, I can't take their claims at face value.

Im from Balochistan bro. That said from what Ive seen arians and even awans on average are more iranic lookin than say jatts etc let alone indians.

Oh, brother. Iranic =/=Arabic. You have to decide who they are.

One can see this white washing at play at bollywood most of which is made up of panjabis and pathans.. am I wrong bro? Compare them to lets say Bhojpuri film industry.

There are some Bihari actors as well,

Sonakshi Sinha

Neha Sharma

Sushant Singh Rajput

And make no mistake, Bollywood is dominated by Khatris (not all Punajbis) because they were one of the richest community and owned big production companies, Kapoor family being a fine example.

Im sorry but 50% of Afghanistan itself shares ethnic connection to Pakistan and so does Iran (though a small minority in iranian case).

As for phenotypes etc, somebody shared the map below here:

Reverse searching didn't showed the root source but took me to a reddit criticism of the map by a Pakistani - interestingly - he mentions PDF too, lolol, needless to say, map seems to be randomly constructed

You know how I know this is dubious at best? They put all of North India into one category and all of South India into one category and all of Iran into one category....

Hindustani people? Persian people? Studies are far more descriptive than this. No autosomal study has included a Saraiki population yet, only mtDNA studies. So that is definitely BS. They conveniently left out the most studied South Asian sample set -- the Gujarati (GIH) samples -- a significant subset of which would be similar to a significant subset of the Punjabi set.

So the colored graph things are produced in a program called ADMIXTURE. Kalash are highly drifted (ie. they have married amongst themselves for a long time, and have thus formed a unique "signature"), that's why they form their own component at low K (K = number of components; in this case K=7) However, in reality Kalash fall on the normal South-Central Asian cline. They aren't of Greek descent or any of that jazz. A Kalash is more similar to some dude in Karachi than they are to anyone in Europe. This is an example of using data to exaggerate a difference. They sit between the Pashtun, Kho, Nuristanis, Tajik Ishkashim, Rushan, and Yaghnobi.

Their Gangetic samples are probably the Chamar/Dalit sample set (which would apply to a good portion of Punjab as well). Notice how the Dravidian samples are more blue than than the Gangetic samples -- implying South India is more West Eurasian than the North (which is true in some respects...however, we aren't getting into that that is some nuance for r/pakistan)... the point is, they used a higher-caste sample set for the Dravidian group like Tamil Iyers probably and probably didn't use Brahmins or Kshatriya for the North Indian sample set. In short, much of the data may be real, it doesn't look entirely faked...however, the way it is presented is completely misleading. Some of it is definitely made up, like the Seraiki set.

Also the choice of component names are intentional to make similarities and differences appear as they wish. In ADMIXTURE there is a supervised run (where you define the K-components) and unsupervised run (where you let things sort out on their own). In one case you are forcing a component and naming it, in the other case you make your best guess as to what that color represents. As you can imagine the definition of "South Asian" and "Eurasian" is extremely subjective in this case.

This is evidently from a Facebook group called Ancient Pakistan. They posted their sources on Defence.pk in a post. I went through all 7-8 sources. None have this map or all of these populations in their studies. They took some ADMIXTURES from some studies and some from others, made up a few and posted this. This post is at least 2-3 years old. So it is definitely dated.

https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252Fpakistan%252Fcomments%252F9dgu3l%252F

My addition to above :
The ethnic groups you're are showing are highly heterogenous themselves, two Hindi states were part of Undivided Punjab (Haryana and Himachal) and Hindi speaking is a weak term actually - Himachal and Jharkhand are hardly anything similar.

Also bro, I didnt claim awans being iranian, but merely look different than jatts/rajputs in general.. its you whose claiming otherwise.

Oh dear, force some of your Awan friends for a DNA test, we all will know the truth.

PS : And Iranian is not a monolithic entity - Persians have a lot of J2 but Pashtuns have R1a as do Tajiks the only link is linguistic here.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

primarily come from Gujarat as well as Sri Lanka

And Bombay

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Oh dear, these are the recorded claims by British Arains used to make in early colonial period, I don't know what's their to prove.

Brother, your cited "historians" are no historian at all. Both of them are Islamic preacher of some kind, I can't take their claims at face value.


Oh, brother. Iranic =/=Arabic. You have to decide who they are.

What? I said iranic looking not fukin arabic or iranian.. jeez!

There are some Bihari actors as well,

Sonakshi Sinha
View attachment 638583


Neha Sharma
View attachment 638584

Sushant Singh Rajput
View attachment 638585

Literally had to google who these folk are..

And make no mistake, Bollywood is dominated by Khatris (not all Punajbis) because they were one of the richest community and owned big production companies, Kapoor family being a fine example.

Im sorry but even your kapoors are basically migrants from Pak.

Reverse searching didn't showed the root source but took me to a reddit criticism of the map by a Pakistani - interestingly - he mentions PDF too, lolol, needless to say, map seems to be randomly constructed

https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252Fpakistan%252Fcomments%252F9dgu3l%252F

My addition to above :
The ethnic groups you're are showing are highly heterogenous themselves, two Hindi states were part of Undivided Punjab (Haryana and Himachal) and Hindi speaking is a weak term actually - Himachal and Jharkhand are hardly anything similar.

Oh dear, force some of your Awan friends for a DNA test, we all will know the truth.

Okay boss, you have the same genetics as a sialkoti or potohari. And biharis etc in general look same as Pakistani panjabis from central & potohar region.. happy?
Please continue.

 

[Kabira]

This is stupid discussion. Its pretty clear instead of colonial iranic-indic distinction, its more of regional differences. Original indics and iranics were same people that came from central asia. Modern indics and iranics looks depends on where they live. Dards in north who are technically indics look more western then pashtuns. Iranians don't have much of original indo-iranian ancestry compared to high caste Indians yet look way more caucasian. Because people in west asia in general look more Caucasian even if they have 0% indo-iranian.

This is how generally is, some exceptions will be there because of recent migrations. Gujjars in north look closer to pashtuns then gujjars living in punjab let alone Indian gujjars etc

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

And yes Im a Proud Pakistani and proud Baloch.. I dont have any inferiority complex but yes I wouldnt want to be tagged with a bihari or a marathi etc.

Nor would I want to be tagged with a Baloch.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Sindhis dont look like biharis, UP/CPiites either.

Sindhis are very dark

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Nor would I want to be tagged with a Baloch.

Thats cute, why would you? Probably reminds you of the thukai of panipat.. and slavery your ancestors/kins had to endure.

But dont worry we have your people on Balochistan.. a reminder.

 

[Naofumi]

Im sorry but even your kapoors are basically migrants from Pak.

I said they were rich dude, hence they dominated. Didn't denied their origins.

Okay boss, you have the same genetics as a sialkoti or potohari.

Even a Bihari is not same as a Uttranchali, let alone a Potohari but the difference is regional - there's no dividing line in Pakistan where Arab and Persians starts and stops at Indian one.

Literally had to google who these folk are..

Know Amitabh Bachchan???

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

Thats cute, why would you? Probably reminds you of the thukai of panipat.. and slavery your ancestors/kins have to endure.

Actually I was expecting this response from you lol. That's the only things you have in your armory right? Panipat?
Typical Pakistani considering victories of other as their own. Koi to sharam karo. This is the reason no one takes you guys seriously.

But dont worry we have your people on Balochistan.. a reminder.

You guys still are tribals, aren't you? Anyway, no one takes tribals like you seriously.