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Muslim Philosopher Says Islam Has Given Birth To Monsters, Needs Reform

Or maybe thanks to their culture which they value above anything logical? Like habit of debating is one culture that you will find very strong in S.Asian countries another saas bahu enmity ...the need to kill one or the other....nothing to do with Islam....


In context it is still not wrong because back then he married a woman who fit the criteria (age was never a criteria)

sane mind
puberty
consent

Islam was a revolutionary religion and philosophy when it originated. This religion gave many rights to common people which was surprising in the context of time. But as there was no thinkers after the prophet, the development of the religion stopped . Further , the establishments of ME captured the religion and interpreted it as per their local intellect which was actually far behind and immature.

So the philosophy once revolutionary lost its edge over time naturally and rest of the world initially influenced by Islam and in the beginning and reformed accordingly advanced more. The world changed drastically after series of global events like French revolution, Industrial revolution, Russian revolution, World wars, Down fall of USSR etc but Islam and Muslim countries failed to adapt. They are still in dilemma between 1400 AD and 2000 AD. Even the best machine requires oiling and change of parts time to time. But currently the great religion does not have such scope

The oil money of ME also helped to prevent any reforms and keep status quo in Islam. Shia , Sunni divide is more political than ideological. There was less ideological debate in Muslim world on interpretation of Koran rather than establishing political hegemony using Holy Koran. Now no sunni imam has the right and courage to go beyond what is political interpretation of Koran he received from ME country (Saudi?). This is one kind of ideological slavery that communist suffered during USSR time and became irrelivent .

Do you really believe Saudi or Qatar can give thought leadership to Islamic world for their progress?
 
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Though entirely off topic, but there are multiple report girl as little as 13 getting pregnant became pregnant in America as well as in some european countries.

Britain's youngest mother is believed to be a girl of 11, who fell pregnant when she was just ten. The world's youngest recorded mother was an eight-year-old from Arkansas in the U.S., who had twins in 1994.

This girl is just 12 and she is pregnant by a boy of 15 | Daily Mail Online



Girls become sexually active as early as 13 or majority at 15. Don't you find that shocking and disgusting as well?

In whole Islamic history, a singular case occurred (please do quote if such incidents in 21st century in Islamic world, It's a challenge) and you feel disgusted while you don't get disgusted by liberal sexual attitudes of your own countrymen is bemusing.

Instead of one single case, I'd like to post a link to article about Iran legalizing the marriage of fathers and their adopted daughters once they hit 13.

Iran lawmakers pass bill allowing men to marry adopted daughters | World news | The Guardian
 
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Don't have any doubts. We are about to get it soon.

And don't bother arguing with them. It's up to us to
defend ourselves while the "extremists" will carry on whatever they are up to and "moderates" will live in denial.

Let's see. We aren't dead yet.
 
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Ask those folks that you think are responsible.

Why do Hindu parents kill their female infants by the millions ? Should just any Hindu be held responsible for that or just the ones that commit these acts.

Its no brainier my friend.

Hindus who do that are equally bad. All religions belong in the house they are practice but none of the other religions claim to be peaceful like Islam. This thread is about Islam. Btw please read up on female infanticide in Bangladesh

BANGLADESH The price of poverty: woman who sold daughter for US$ 125, now wants her back - Asia News
 
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The 9 yr old question was in regards to THAT time....And there is no 1 source that tells you Aisha's CORRECT age AT THAT TIME.....Esp when they didnt have birth registration people only estimated ....and the method of estimation BACK THEN was not a sophisticated or solid as today esp since back then puberty was the only measure of marriageable age...

Before jumping in blind do read a few pages back (WHERE This question came from and at what it is addressed)

I would not consent a 9 yr old to marriage...Why 9 yr olds today are not responsible enough...Heck even 30 yr olds today are not responsible enough!

Hope that answers your question!

What a convoluted argument to help Islam. Exposes the double standards which existed in Islam since it was created. Give me Wikipedia anytime. At least I can correct fallacies in it.
 
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What a convoluted argument to help Islam. Exposes the double standards which existed in Islam since it was created. Give me Wikipedia anytime. At least I can correct fallacies in it.
Cant reply attack THE logic...Typical Indian mentality! :agree:


@gambit below are some people who managed to do great things in their teens...


Well he picked an incident from long ago so yes the argument was set back and as far as Islam has said is for marriage to be accepted those involved need to have a sane mind , reach puberty and their consent....

If back then:

Being the king, Michael Asen II took his father’s place at the head of the military and, though he did very little actual leading, was on the battlefield on several occasions in full battle armament made especially for the young boy (at 7, born in 1270).

Gregorio was born in 1875, the fifth of six children. His military career began immediately following college at the age of 20 with the start of the Philippine Revolution. A year later, now a captain at the age of only 21, he proposed an attack on a Spanish garrison at Paombong that was an overwhelming victory, leading to his promotion to Lieutenant Colonel. In June of 1898, he accepted the surrender of the Spanish in the town of Bulacan and was promoted to general at only 23 years old.

he was a leading member of a special police force during the late shogunate period in Japan. Okita was a samurai who began training in swordsmanship around the age of nine. When he was only 12, he was defeating kenjutsu (swordsmanship) teachers in rival schools and attained the Menkyo Kaiden scroll labeling him as a master of his style at age 18. He was the head teacher at a dojo for the next year before becoming a founding member of the Shinsengumi, becoming their first unit captain at the age of 19. He is considered one of only 13 Kensei, or “sword saints”, and is one of the greatest swordsmen in the history of Japan.

In 1587, at the age of 24, Henry IV defeated a royalist army at the Battle of Coutras, which would lead to his ultimate rise to the throne. He was crowned king of France in 1589 and was adored by the people, known as a man of kindness, compassion, and good humor.

Wladyslaw is another king who succeeded to the throne at a very young age, being only 10 years old. At the age of 17, when the kingship in the neighboring Kingdom of Hungary was being debated, Waldyslaw led armies with several other nations under the blessing of Pope Eugene IV against Hungary’s regent Elizabeth of Luxembourg. Following her defeat, he accepted the crown of the Kingdom of Hungary at the age of 19.

Augustus (1st Emperor of Roman Empire) was born in 63 B.C. He was only 18 years old when news of Julius Caesar’s assassination reached him. Ignoring counsel to seek refuge with troops in Macedonia, he returned to Italia and learned Caesar had left him two-thirds of his estate and, having no living legitimate children, had named him both his son and heir.

Joan has to be so high on this list because she was a teenage girl leading armies in a time when females simply did not fight on the battlefield. At 16, she gained the audience of the royal French court and made a remarkable prediction about a military reversal that would occur near Orleans. Impressed, King Charles VII granted her request to travel with the army and dress as a knight.

Alexander was born in 356 B.C. as the son of the Macedonian king, Philip II. When he was 16, he returned to Macedon to rule as regent while his father waged war against Byzantium.

The third emperor of China’s Qing Dynasty, 5-year-old Fulin (eventually known as the Shunzhi Emperor) rose to power in 1643 following the death of his father. Because he was so young, for the next several years China was ruled under the regency of his uncle, Dorgon. After Dorgon’s death in 1650, 12-year-old Shunzhi took the reigns of the empire. Wary of power grabs from his political enemies, he soon fostered a precarious alliance with influential court eunuchs and made efforts to fight corruption and consolidate the empire under Qing rule. - So a 12 yr old can handle himself!

Mary Stuart—more famously known as Mary, queen of Scots—ruled as queen of two separate nations before she was 18 years old.

King Baldwin IV not only saved Jerusalem from capture at the age of 16, but he did it while suffering from a debilitating disease.



Philip Streich, 17
Platteville, Wisconson
Nano Entrepeneur

Streich custom-built a spectrometer to probe the chemical characteristics of the nanotubes.


Daniel Burd, 17
Waterloo, Ontario
Using supplies and equipment acquired mostly through eBay, Burd collected soil samples, isolated candidate microbes, and grew each in a culture. Then he quantified each organism’s ability to degrade plastic by exposing it to plastic strips.



Now you have 2 choices: Accept truth as it is - that teens back then and even now (if focused) can actually do something....And also that back then teenagers could make GREAT choices not like SOME today at 40 still cant decide if they need to get married or a sex change operation!

OR

Live in denial = stop questioning just live in the denial bubble you are soo comfortable with
 
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It DOES NOT matter the precise age of Aisha at the time of marriage.
It does to many coz that is the ONLY thing their argument stands on!


What matter is how the Muslims views such a marriage TODAY
That's their business...Like there are many ignorant people known as celebrities and taken as "idols" What and how do you think CHILDREN view their idols?


If Aisha was interpreted today to be 9 yrs old -- rightly or wrongly -- and if enough Muslims accept that interpretation, then Aisha was nine yrs old at the time of marriage.
Now that is interesting...So if Today some repeat that you are insane....some weeks down the line you will be registered to the nearest mental facility for being insane? Just coz enough people have called you so?


So now we see girls barely into their teens, some did not even made it, married to men old enough to be their grandfathers.
How come same blame doesnt fall on celebrities?


I have read the arguments and found nothing newly addressed. The fact that you brought up the age disparity between ADULTS tell me you did not understand the criticisms at all.
Mind you I didnt bring up the age factor...Hence, I can understand that either you didnt read and by saying so are lying to put in a brownie point OR you did read but not far back where the ORIGINAL conversation started....
 
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Don't have any doubts. We are about to get it soon.

And don't bother arguing with them. It's up to us to defend ourselves while the "extremists" will carry on whatever they are up to and "moderates" will live in denial.

I think your blowing it a bit out of proportion.. Sri Lanka Muslims by far are STILL more moderate compared to any others in the region

But your're also right there are worrying signs, I dont think it's Islamization but Arabization that is damaging the community as Dr. Ali rightly points out

Whats disturbing is the Silence of the majority as a whole to it's radicalization through Wahhabi fundamentalists.. Head in the sand syndrome.. Introspection is needed within the Sri Lankan Muslim community before it's too late
 
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These problems will remain for as long as the funding for these thoughts remain.
 
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I think your blowing it a bit out of proportion.. Sri Lanka Muslims by far are STILL more moderate compared to any others in the region

But your're also right there are worrying signs, I dont think it's Islamization but Arabization that is damaging the community as Dr. Ali rightly points out

Whats disturbing is the Silence of the majority as a whole to it's radicalization through Wahhabi fundamentalists.. Head in the sand syndrome.. Introspection is needed within the Sri Lankan Muslim community before it's too late
ahahahahah moderates? then you have some serious denial issues. As your last paragraph says, majority are silence only because they don't mind what's being happening. As I said already, remove any doubts, hopes you have that they will magically start getting better. It's not going to happen. It's us who both have to face the consequences and take actions.
 
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Islam was a revolutionary religion and philosophy when it originated. This religion gave many rights to common people which was surprising in the context of time. But as there was no thinkers after the prophet, the development of the religion stopped . Further , the establishments of ME captured the religion and interpreted it as per their local intellect which was actually far behind and immature.
You see the bold bit thats against history.....
Abu Bakr Muhummad ibn Zakariyya ar-Razi (Rhazes) who differentiated smallpox from measles, described the laryngeal branch of the recurrent nerve, introduced mercurial ointments and hot moist compresses in surgery, investigated psychosomatic reactions, and wrote the famous Al-Hawi, a medical encyclopedia of 30 volumes ; Az-Zahrawi (Abulcasis), known as the father of surgery, who performed tracheotomy and lithotomy, introduced the use of cotton and catgut, and described extra-uterine pregnancy, cancer of the breast, and the sex-linked inheritance of hemophilia ; Ibn Sina (Avicenna) who differentiated meningitis from other neurologic diseases, described anthrax and tuberculosis, introduced urethral drug instillation, stressed the importance of hygiene, and dietetics, and the holistic approach to the patient [his work al-Qanun fil Tibb (The Canon of Medicine), represented the absolute authority in medicine for 500 years ]; Ibn-Zuhr (Avenzoar) who described pericarditis, mediastinitis, and paralysis of the pharynx, and who pointed out the importance of drugs for body and soul ; and Ibn-Nafis who studied and described pulmonary circulation

Progress was apparent in all medical fields, including anatomy, surgery, anaesthesia, cardiology, ophthalmology, orthopaedics, bacteriology, urology, obstetrics, neurology, psychiatry (including psychotherapy), hygiene, dietetics, and dentistry .

At the same time, secular hospitals (Bimaristans), developed all over the Arab world . These were well-organized institutions, run under specific regulations and directed by physicians. No sexual, religious, social, or economic discrimination interfered with patients’ treatment . Detailed medical records were kept . These hospitals were adequately equipped, and had both inpatient and outpatient units. Small, mobile hospital units were also created to serve distant areas and battle fields. The first known hospital was established in Damascus in 706 C.E., while the most important one, located in Baghdad, was established in 982 C.E.



So the philosophy once revolutionary lost its edge over time naturally and rest of the world initially influenced by Islam and in the beginning and reformed accordingly advanced more. The world changed drastically after series of global events like French revolution, Industrial revolution, Russian revolution, World wars, Down fall of USSR etc but Islam and Muslim countries failed to adapt. They are still in dilemma between 1400 AD and 2000 AD. Even the best machine requires oiling and change of parts time to time. But currently the great religion does not have such scope

What happened was since everything was going smoothly as with today's welfare states too, things start going down hill....Esp when stupids claiming Sultanates (Which is not allowed in Islam as it stops circulation of wealth) started emerging and money was wasted for concubines (Which is Haram) and all other ills (gambling, drinking, drugs) became common....Everything went back to square one...How and why? Cultural habits of rich societies (Kings, concubines, gambling, drinking) and then when you have kings (law becomes corrupt- those close to him are pardoned for every crime while those objecting to him are killed without question), you have people with sweet nothings to say to keep the king's heart...and the whole society collapses...Mind you NONE of this was asked of in Islam...NONE!

As for the revolutions that came in ....yes alot of anarchy (at least that is what it was shown as for THAT time) later settled down to what we call now as revolutions...

As for machines requiring oil....Islam is not a machine so the analogy doesnt fit


The oil money of ME also helped to prevent any reforms and keep status quo in Islam. Shia , Sunni divide is more political than ideological.
Yes, The oil money to blame everything is the equivalent to blaming America for the establishment of Mujahideen to counter USSR...

And that wasnt even sarcasm....MONEY be it earned by oil or selling themselves, always corrupts!

There was less ideological debate in Muslim world on interpretation of Koran rather than establishing political hegemony using Holy Koran. Now no sunni imam has the right and courage to go beyond what is political interpretation of Koran he received from ME country (Saudi?). This is one kind of ideological slavery that communist suffered during USSR time and became irrelivent .
1stly, No one recieved anything from Saudi...Maybe you should wake up from 1400 yrs ago...You should see that there is more than 1 translation of the Quran ...also translated in many languages and not all are funded by Saudi!

So your "kind of ideological slavery" kinda didnt stand up!


Do you really believe Saudi or Qatar can give thought leadership to Islamic world for their progress?
Who believes that? Everyone only gives respect to Saudi for having not 1 but 2 holy CITIES! Had they none of those they would be no different than Iraq!
 
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It's not in our culture to hate other sects.
Do you think so?


It's not in our culture to hold life as worthless.
Yet it is S.Asians who will come out quicker than a sneeze with their clubs and what not to bash someone!


Our culture does not teach us to question our parents and act like we know what's best for the world.
Oh yes it does....The ego level has soared through the roof...No matter how intelligent you may be (or qualified- say MA) your (figuratively speaking) father who didnt even make it to Uni will always be right...And you have no authority to ask and he has no shame/ humbleness to accept the difference!


What is culture really? It's just a way of life adapted over centuries because it works. At least culture adapts to accommodate change, but religion does not.
So you mean to tell me Bangoli in UK wont be eating fish and walking in their lungi? Honestly speaking that is a lie and even you know it!

So I dont see your adaptation....And as for religion...It only needs to adapt if there is something wrong with it and it wont fit!


The incidences you are talking about, like forced marriage, are only a cultural problem when people from one culture refuse to adapt to their new surroundings.
True...And THIS specific problem was also addressed by Islam and asked to marry ONLY one in puberty ONLY WHEN both give consent!


. In rural Punjab or Sylhet almost every single girl gets arranged married - and it works wonderfully, so in its place the culture is fine. When you try to apply this in a society where a girl does not live in an enclosed place, where every freedom in the world is available to her, where she is highly educated - then it does not work so well.
Agreed...and THAT is culture! Not religion!


But if you can understand this and condemn people for not adapting their culture. Why not condemn them for not adapting the religious dogma to the present times?
Why coz there in 28 pages all people have been able to do is take out their anger and bash Islam without quoting the Quran or anything that is wrong with it!

When you cant find a problem why do you suggest there is one that needs fixing?
 
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