Muslim Philosopher Says Islam Has Given Birth To Monsters, Needs Reform

[temp1994]

Either this is a display of stupidity or you have not an iota of knowledge of what you are babbling about!

But let me just answer for the sake of embarrassing you:

As apparent from this post, shamelessness of Apologists knows no bound.

The ugly face of Islamic intolerance is shown a mirror and a faithful R.o.P. follower is trying to break the mirror.

1stly, Shariah is not a book dropped from Heaven...it is derived from Quran and Hadith...1 verse from the Quran can break every shitty stereotype people of your likes use! And that verse I presented! Now if you want to be the media dog go ahead and bark but EACH and EVERY Muslim knows what I quoted broke any word that can be said against the punishment!

You may present any number of verses from Koran, but it does not change the fact that your religion, and only your religion, hunt people down who leave it, like a death cult.

What use are those verses to a apostate whose neck is about to be cut, as "legally" sanctioned in most of muslim countries, including yours?

Would those verse provide a magical force field which would deflect that sword blow to his neck, when his neck would be taken off for leaving Islam in these countries?

Now if you want to be the media dog go ahead and bark but EACH and EVERY Muslim knows what I quoted broke any word that can be said against the punishment!

Probably you should act like a loyal Ummah dog and bark against muslim countries who kill people for leaving Islam rather than barking against infidels who judge Islam by the doing of religious muslims,in Islamic ummah where they have army of Koran hafiz who have memorized it whole and legions of scholars who know tafsir of Koran.

If you are not doing taqqiya/kitman in land of infidel, and your tafsir is true; you could certainly persuade them to reverse their "Islam or Death" laws. Most of them , barring Afghanistan and Somalia, are not even dangerous countries where one has to fear for his safety, unless....................

It is ignorant people like you who cant pick this verse to "use as a magic force field" (dear GOD come out of your delusion of Islam bashing already)...Had they bothered educated themselves they would have been able to present it as the "magic force field" it is!

Why is it the burden of Kuffär to understand Koran and excuse the barbarity of Muslims? Why don't muslims understand it themselves and stop killing people? Probably they do understand it and follow it's correct version. unlike you. How could one explain "Islam or Death" law in Islamic countries with boundless resource to get Koran tafsir?

It is height of shamelessness of Muslims when they say that "Since there is some verse in Koran which would protect you even when you have done Apostasy, you should not have ill will against Islam, even though we are cutting your neck for that", to a infidel.

 

[gambit]

It does to many coz that is the ONLY thing their argument stands on!

Yah...The Muslims stands on the belief that Aisha was nine yrs old at the time of marriage. I dare say that Muslims who have doubts about her precise age at that time are the minority. This pretty much renders your rebuttal that no one knows her precise age -- worthless. As long as enough Muslims believes Aisha was nine yrs old -- the marriage and consummation occurred when Aisha was nine yrs old.

That's their business...Like there are many ignorant people known as celebrities and taken as "idols" What and how do you think CHILDREN view their idols?

That is correct. And I have no problems with it. If the Muslims make it their business that Aisha was nine yrs old at the time of marriage, I am fine with it. Own it and admit it.

Now that is interesting...So if Today some repeat that you are insane....some weeks down the line you will be registered to the nearest mental facility for being insane? Just coz enough people have called you so?

The problem with your analogy is that I can prove that I am not insane, whereas no one today can prove that Aisha was or was not nine yrs old, and Aisha is not here to say anything.

How come same blame doesnt fall on celebrities?

Because those celebrities are ADULTS. Do you know the definition of 'adult' ?

Mind you I didnt bring up the age factor...Hence, I can understand that either you didnt read and by saying so are lying to put in a brownie point OR you did read but not far back where the ORIGINAL conversation started....

I do not care who brought the age factor. I thought it was absurd that you would try to make a comparison of Aisha's marriage to an older man by using young and old ADULTS.

 

[gambit]

@gambit below are some people who managed to do great things in their teens...

And they are the exceptions, not the norm.

But regardless of how many exceptional young people you can bring up, there are millions of equally young boys and girls who perished in poverty, hunger, and from diseases. You think that having sex at nine yrs old, or ten or eleven or even 15, is an accomplishment worthy of emulation ? Aisha married Muhammad when she was nine yrs old and he was 50-something. The consequence is that she became famous because of his stature, not because she accomplished anything worthy on her own.

Do you know what is a 'dame' ? A 'dame' is a woman who was knighted from her own accomplishments. Take actress Julie Andrews, for example. She was knighted and her title was Dame Julie Andrews. Jocelyn Bell Burnell was knighted for her accomplishments in science -- astronomy -- so her title is Dame Jocelyn Bell Burnell.

At the risk of sounding like a cad about a woman who is no longer here to speak for herself, what did Aisha accomplished at the age of nine yrs old for you to place her at the same category as young men and women who actually done something ?

You brought on Okita Soji who began samurai training at the age of nine and gained samurai status at 12. I am sorry for your argument, but are you equating consummation of marriage to an older man to what Okita Soji did ?

If you admire Aisha at her adult yrs for her leadership of the Muslim community, if she became a scholar of Islam, or she did great charity works, then you are on the right track. But please do not make an absurd comparison between marriage to an older man the equal of being a samurai or like Joan of Arc who led armies into battles or like young scientist Philip Streich.

 

[Dubious]

And they are the exceptions, not the norm.

And so are ISIS

You think that having sex at nine yrs old, or ten or eleven or even 15, is an accomplishment worthy of emulation ? Aisha married Muhammad when she was nine yrs old and he was 50-something. The consequence is that she became famous because of his stature, not because she accomplished anything worthy on her own.

Before typing try learning a bit about what you type!

1stly, there is no proper source of her age...Sahih Hadith states 9, 13, 15...No one knows ...

2ndly, it happened back then and it was the norm...Heck there was even 1 hadith (not sure Sahih or not) that states she already rejected 1 proposal....So she prob was of age when people proposed! so crying a river 1.5 century later doesnt make sense!

3rdly, She became famous because she memorized sunnah and Hadith
Because she educated women of that time regarding women issues (menstrual cycle, women rights, marriage and others)
She has the most contribution in terms of hadith on women issues....

But of course all that is not an accomplishment for one who wants to just bash a woman dead 1.5 centuries ago!

a woman who was knighted from her own accomplishments.

Take actress Julie Andrews, for example.

Sorry I do not take acting an accomplishment...
I never found it of any use or credit how or why actors earn more than doctors or scientists...or even carpenters
Just coz a dozen people smile and clap for someone should raise their price ...its not exactly an accomplishment to have natural charm or look beautiful...

Jocelyn Bell Burnell was knighted for her accomplishments in science -- astronomy -- so her title is Dame Jocelyn Bell Burnell.

Thank you for the information

At the risk of sounding like a cad about a woman who is no longer here to speak for herself, what did Aisha accomplished at the age of nine yrs old for you to place her at the same category as young men and women who actually done something ?

Answered
3rdly, She became famous because she memorized sunnah and Hadith
Because she educated women of that time regarding women issues (menstrual cycle, women rights, marriage and others)
She has the most contribution in terms of hadith on women issues....

I am sorry for your argument, but are you equating consummation of marriage to an older man to what Okita Soji did ?

My point for bringing that up was because of this:

If you would consent to your nine-yr old daughter to marriage,

Despite me already pointing out the time line...AT THAT TIME and hence I showed you how a 12 yr old could fight and hence back then maturity and responsibility level were not as pathetic as now...Please keep in context jumping around to gain brownie points is just making you look very incoherent!

And of course your last para was just self defense because mind I remind you it was you who was attacking the 9 yr old statement when I had repeatedly stated it was back then and that even her age is in question and there is no historical record to find out a proper age!

 

[VCheng]

Those who want others to learn a bit about what they type should know that 1.5 centuries means 150 years, since a century is 100 years.

 

[Dubious]

Yah...The Muslims stands on the belief that Aisha was nine yrs old at the time of marriage

Please do point out which Muslims?

You mean the ones attacking here...oh wait you arent a Muslim...

I dare say that Muslims who have doubts about her precise age at that time are the minority.

That is based solely on your understanding ...not on anybody´s actual believe!

This pretty much renders your rebuttal that no one knows her precise age -- worthless. As long as enough Muslims believes Aisha was nine yrs old -- the marriage and consummation occurred when Aisha was nine yrs old.

Even if you claim "MOST MUSLIMS" believe Aisha was married at 9...NONE believe it was consummated at 9! Please stop lying!

. If the Muslims make it their business that Aisha was nine yrs old at the time of marriage, I am fine with it. Own it and admit it.

Again misquoting and out of context quoting?

Because anyone who would take 1 min to scroll up or trace the quotes will know I responded to this :

If you would consent to your nine-yr old daughter to marriage,

Not to Muslims....and What I did respond was this:

So we have established (based on your jumping to conclusions based on 1 or small samples) that you lie, pick out of context and now twist words...Proofs are presented above and in previous posts

Because those celebrities are ADULTS. Do you know the definition of 'adult' ?

Really? Those teens who I also posted (of course you missed) were everywhere between 13-17

young and old ADULTS

I think it is absurd how you call some adults!

In August 1979, three months before her 17th birthday, Demi Moore met married musician Freddy Moore, at the time leader of the band Boy, at the Los Angeles nightclub The Troubadour.

Barrymore married her first husband, Welsh bartender turned Los Angeles bar owner Jeremy Thomas, at the age of nineteen on March 20, 1994.

On June 7, 2003, when she was 19 years old, Wilde married Tao Ruspoli, an Italian filmmaker and musician, whose family owns a famed palazzo in Italy, at a ceremony in Washington, Virginia. They were married on a school bus with only a pair of witnesses. She later said the marriage occurred in an abandoned school bus because it was the only place where they could be completely alone, as the marriage was a secret at the time.

In the 21st century 19 seems legal enough for the roof not to come crashing and fingers not pointed!

Bo Derek got her iconic name with the help of her late husband, John Derek. They married in 1976, when she was 18 and he was 30 years older. The couple began dating when she was 16 and moved to Germany until Bo turned 18 to avoid US statutory rape laws.

At the age of 16, Milla Jovovich married her Dazed and Confused costar Shawn Andrews, who was 21.

In February 2004, Solange married her high school sweetheart, Daniel Smith, when she was 17.

LeAnn Rimes married her backup dancer Dean Sheremet in 2002 when she was 19.

Parents of the 16-year-old bride who wed Green Mile actor Doug Hutchison, 51, give marriage their approval

• Bride's father is four years YOUNGER than groom

Read more: Parents of teen bride who wed Green Mile actor Doug Hutchison, 51, give marriage their approval | Daily Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Nope not in a Muslim country nor to Muslims


And many more you can search in your own time!

 

[Dubious]

watching this

There is def more than one:

Open Letter to Abu Bakar Al-Baghdadi, by leading global Scholars of Islam.

 

[Dubious]

watching this gives me some hope.

and not one Allah Akbar to be heard

wonder how many bothered to have a look at the video...

 

[Black Mamba1]

You see the bold bit thats against history.....
!

I have modified the line "But there was no thinkers of after the prophet, the development of the religion stopped" with " But there was no thinkers of his stature after the prophet, the development of the religion stopped". Actually current Islamic philosophy prevents such person to come again. If such person born people probably will kill him like people tried to kill the prophet

As for machines requiring oil....Islam is not a machine so the analogy doesnt fit
!

So , do you believe whatever Islam became after 1400 years is perfect. There is no problem at all. Every thing this running properly as per initial doctrine? Therefore No reform is required? If you do not believe that, then you agree some reform/reinterpretation (oiling?) is required.. Mind it, I told "oiling of existing machine/process" not to "discard the machine" But who will bell the cat? Current Islamic system does not allow questions towards the existing religious practice ( blasphemy), how reinterpretation/reform will happen?

1stly, No one recieved anything from Saudi...Maybe you should wake up from 1400 yrs ago...You should see that there is more than 1 translation of the Quran ...also translated in many languages and not all are funded by Saudi!
!

So your "kind of ideological slavery" kinda didnt stand up!
Who believes that? Everyone only gives respect to Saudi for having not 1 but 2 holy CITIES! Had they none of those they would be no different than Iraq !

Most of the references related to Islam and its explanation/Interpretation as a religion are mostly Arabs. How many thought leaders we encountered from this subcontinent whose new interpretationexplanations were accepted by Global Islamic body of knowledge ? Although majority of Global Muslims live in this subcontinent. Don't you think this as "Ideological Slavery". If not then what the term means?
Same thing happened to the communists. Indigenous thought leaders were absent. At one point of time which was a very powerful ideology is nowhere today.

 

[Dubious]

I have modified the line "But there was no thinkers of after the prophet, the development of the religion stopped" with " But there was no thinkers of his stature after the prophet, the development of the religion stopped".

Ok....lets take this....

". Actually current Islamic philosophy prevents such person to come again. If such person born people probably will kill him like people tried to kill the prophet

I would like to start with definition of a prophet under ANY religion:

In religion, a prophet is an individual who is claimed to have been contacted by the supernatural or the divine, and to speak for them, serving as an intermediary with humanity, delivering this newfound knowledge from the supernatural entity to other people.

So prophets dont emerge they are chosen....As for current or older Islamic philosophy was clear...

Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.- Quran 33:40

And this verse was the same even 1400 years ago...So basically it is not the CURRENT Islamic philosophy but the ONLY philosophy in that area...

So , do you believe whatever Islam became after 1400 years is perfect. There is no problem at all. Every thing this running properly as per initial doctrine? Therefore No reform is required?

I agree that is true for the religion...what the follower does is his own business....Because Islam is not to be held accountable for what the follower WISHES to do...Because when entering Islam we give our OATH to ALLAH not humans....So if we go back it is between us and ALLAH....

We can take this oath and then do evil...ALLAH will catch us...An Islamic state or shariah law will punish us if caught....otherwise like any other human being we have free will to make our own choices for which we have to face the consequences ourselves not put the religion at trial!

Current Islamic system does not allow questions towards the existing religious practice ( blasphemy), how reinterpretation/reform will happen?

1stly, Islamic law of order and justice system can under reinterpretation and can be reformed....but not Islamic doctrine...

Shariah is a path which is derived from Quran and hadith....So those punishments taken from the Quran, they cant be changed BUT those not taken from the Quran can be adjusted to the choices available in the hadith (almost all punishments have an alternative to it no case are strict 1 punishment only)

Can you give me 1 verse in the Quran where it says you are not allowed to question? I can give you a handful where it says REPEATEDLY to PONDER....I believe that means to think hence questions will automatically be formed from thinking....

"It is a Book We have sent down to you, full of blessing, so let people of intelligence ponder (liyaddabbaru) its Signs and take heed." [Quran 38:29]

 

[Dubious]

Most of the references related to Islam and its explanation/Interpretation as a religion are mostly Arabs. How many thought leaders we encountered from this subcontinent whose new interpretationexplanations were accepted by Global Islamic body of knowledge ?

Sheikh Ahmad Deedat (Legendary) - Born in India but brought up in Africa
Dr.Israr Ahmed (written enough books which are even famous to Malaysians)
Dr.Zakir Naik (sadly Indians themselves attacked him) -He was heard world wide
Ust Nouman Ali Khan (Pakistani) - Famous for both Urdu and English classes on the literature and linguistics of Arabic language esp Arabic of the Quran....
Dr. Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips (A convert)
Dr. Yusuf Estes (a convert...Not even Arab)
Dr.Abdur Rahman Green (A convert, not Arab)
Hussain Yee (Malaysian Chinese) - Very patient man Mashallah!
These are just some from the top of my head

All the above are Non Arabs...Many learnt Arabic at a very much later age....

Since we all read our books in its original language...No matter how you translate ponder.....you will always get ponder...some may translate it as think but it will always mean the same....So "new interpretations/ explanations can only go so far....

Although majority of Global Muslims live in this subcontinent. Don't you think this as "Ideological Slavery". If not then what the term means?

Its not as I have listed a list of NON ARABS who are INTERNATIONALLY prominent speakers!

Same thing happened to the communists. Indigenous thought leaders were absent. At one point of time which was a very powerful ideology is nowhere today.

Very incomparable!

 

[Black Mamba1]

I agree that is true for the religion...what the follower does is his own business....Because Islam is not to be held accountable for what the follower WISHES to do......

otherwise like any other human being we have free will to make our own choices for which we have to face the consequences ourselves not put the religion at trial!

In any of my posts till date , you can not find a line where I am blaming Islam as a religion. Rather I believe Islam enriched human civilisation in many ways. But most of the Islamic glory points in the past. As things are not moving in right direction across the globe I am just trying to find the causes. My argument is as follows-
Even a meaning of a word does not remain same for 1400 years. Sometimes even it can be shown that meaning of a word became just opposite over time. So reinterpretation time to time may be required to make the system in right track and also to make it contemporary and satisfying needs of the time.

Further to analyse a word minutely or finding what is haram are we (I am not a Muslim but I believe every religion is a property of Human civilisation and not to the followers alone) missing the soul of the religion ie spiritualism?

Can you give me 1 verse in the Quran where it says you are not allowed to question? I can give you a handful where it says REPEATEDLY to PONDER....I believe that means to think hence questions will automatically be formed from thinking....

"It is a Book We have sent down to you, full of blessing, so let people of intelligence ponder (liyaddabbaru) its Signs and take heed." [Quran 38:29]

I am sure there is none without trying to find it. But can you please make your Mullas and Moulavis understand this simple fact? and also to the fanatics? In my college days, I asked few harmless "why"s to one of my close Muslim friend. He asked some authority as could not reply by his own. That person told him not to interact with me. My friend is now professor of economics in a reputed University. Good Muslim as well a better human being than many of us.

 

[Black Mamba1]

Sheikh Ahmad Deedat (Legendary) - Born in India but brought up in Africa
Dr.Israr Ahmed (written enough books which are even famous to Malaysians)
Dr.Zakir Naik (sadly Indians themselves attacked him) -He was heard world wide
Ust Nouman Ali Khan (Pakistani) - Famous for both Urdu and English classes on the literature and linguistics of Arabic language esp Arabic of the Quran....
Dr. Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips (A convert)
Dr. Yusuf Estes (a convert...Not even Arab)
Dr.Abdur Rahman Green (A convert, not Arab)
Hussain Yee (Malaysian Chinese) - Very patient man Mashallah!
These are just some from the top of my head

All the above are Non Arabs...Many learnt Arabic at a very much later age....

Since we all read our books in its original language...No matter how you translate ponder.....you will always get ponder...some may translate it as think but it will always mean the same....So "new interpretations/ explanations can only go so far....

Its not as I have listed a list of NON ARABS who are INTERNATIONALLY prominent speakers!

Thanks for these information. Also thanks for spending your time for replying my otherwise maverick thoughts

 

[Dubious]

Even a meaning of a word does not remain same for 1400 years.

Not exactly true...The meaning of Christianity still holds strong 2014 yrs down the lane!

So reinterpretation time to time may be required to make the system in right track and also to make it contemporary and satisfying needs of the time.

Fair enough!

And mind you there has be alot of re-translations of the Quran ...and yes there is a handful of reinterpretations too...deeper meanings...

Further to analyse a word minutely or finding what is haram are we (I am not a Muslim but I believe every religion is a property of Human civilisation and not to the followers alone) missing the soul of the religion ie spiritualism?

Sorry I did not get what you meant here...or how it is related to the conversation at hand...

you please make your Mullas and Moulavis understand this simple fact?

Heck if it was up to me I would hang half of them by the balls...I never go to a MULLAH or Molvi...I email alot of scholars if I am in doubt and I tell them to give me advice based on the Quran not based on what they would think of the situations! So I dont know what you want from the Mullah...I aint even interested in going to them for advice let alone to give them any! The only thing I can give them is a piece of my mind which revolves around a bullet in their brain!

and also to the fanatics?

If these listened to anyone I am sure the open letter would have made them shiver!

"why"s to one of my close Muslim friend. He asked some authority as could not reply by his own. That person told him not to interact with me.

that is why I keep telling people not to go to the backstreet Mullah go to a scholar...a Mullah wouldnt know coz he didnt spend his life's work LEARNING and researching into concepts...A mullah usually learned from his father, teacher and is usually a Mullah coz his family is from the a molvi family something like the brahmin being priest mentality! Hence cultural mentality! Hence, A Mullah will only get angry when he cant answer coz he doesnt know who to turn as it will be a shameful act...bringing shame to his family name

While a Scholar who has a degree, researches, reads until he understands, sits for tests/ exams would not behave like that coz a scholar will end up being a teacher as knowledge is never to be kept to yourself it is meant to be passed on....and also such people will be polite enough to say I dont know let me ask my teacher (coz they have learned from someone) or let me look it up (coz they have read from somewhere and since they have done research will even know where to start)

 

[Dubious]

Thanks for these information. Also thanks for spending your time for replying my otherwise maverick thoughts

Most welcome...I can only answer as much as I know and the only reason I dont mind answering is coz I build up my own library of knowledge when I set out to look for answers for questions raised....

It is my duty to know my religion as it is my duty to collect knowledge (which is prescribed by the 1st word ever revealed to the prophet...IQRA- read with understanding or recite with knowledge)