Muslim Military Tradition....What happened?

[AUz]

O.K lets analyze...What happened to the Muslim military tradition? Muslim militaries were once the strongest in the world....even Crusaders (Western Militaries) were no match to the Muslim Forces...Even at Antioch (1st Crusade),Yaghi-Siyan almost annihilated the large Crusader Army until one of his own soldier turn out to be a traitor and opened the gate which allowed the crusaders to take the city.Till,mid 16th/17th century,Ottoman Empire was the strongest military power in the world...But then after 1800s etc,it all vanished.

What happened? Muslim World has shown almost NO talents in modern (complex) warfare.Arab wars with Israel were more than disastrous.Lack of modern training and inability to deploy modern weapons were clear from Arab side...Arab artillery once even bombed its own advancing infantry (as they lack basic mathematical skills) ..Pakistan,as compared to Arabs,performed exceptionally well (against India).

Today,we can not see any modern military in Muslim World..The advantage of the WEST is overwhelming.No Muslim military can face any good Western military in pure conventional mode..

So what happened? Where did we went wrong? Is there any hope of comeback (Not necessarily a fight but atleast a credible deterrence against Western Militaries)? Paradox is that we cannot fight/Deter Western Militaries without using Western Military technology ...So what is the practical way forward?

 

[Leader]

we lack behind modern Education and leadership's Vision !

 

[indianpatriot]

.Pakistan,as compared to Arabs,performed exceptionally well (against India).

LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND FACTS AND DELUSION is on of the many reasons plus in 21st century including Religion into Military,Politics and all.

 

[Leader]

LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND FACTS AND DELUSION is on of the many reasons plus in 21st century including Religion into Military,Politics and all.

true.


Moderators of this forum kindly delete this thread. this is a duplicate to the one in Military History Section.

 

[AUz]

LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND FACTS AND DELUSION is on of the many reasons plus in 21st century including Religion into Military,Politics and all.

Why you quoted me with LARGE HIGHLIGHTED FONT? Any problem with my those lines?

I am NOT saying that Pakistan defeated India or blah blah..I am just saying that Pakistan performed very well as compared to the Arab performance against Israel...Is this thing giving you any pain?

 

[Leader]

Why you quoted me with LARGE HIGHLIGHTED FONT? Any problem with my those lines?

its a lie. delusion. dude we lost half our country to India and half our army to their prison... and more over they have won all the battles in the diplomatic front...

 

[AUz]

its a lie. delusion. dude we lost half our country to India and half our army to their prison... and more over they have won all the battles in the diplomatic front...

Well,lets not go their yara...I am NOT bringing Indo-Pak here...What I am saying is that PAF pilots actually knew how to fly and fight unlike Arabs..Just compare it to the Arabs....Don't you agree that PAF and Pakistan Army were better than Arab Airforces and Arab Armies? Didn't PAF performed better than Arab AirForces?
But still,if you disagree than its O.K..I accept your point..

-Note

Stay on topic. . .

 

[Leader]

ofcourse there is no doubt that man behind the machine in PAK forces is far better than Indian forces.

Our PAF has defended Syria, our Army is one of the best Peace keeping units in UN, our PAF has taken down no less than 10 aircrafts of Israeli Air Force in different dogfights.

currently Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt, Iran are Military powers, rest of the Muslim countries can be taken down in no time, like I said problem lies in lack of Education and Leadership's Vision and it was very well put foward by one of the moderators Santro.

 

[Leader]

Santro's Post

It is said that when the Expedition by the Caliph Umar was at the gates of Jerusalem..
The clergy and leadership of that city was involved in a hectic debate.. on the length of the sword of Gabriel...and other petty matters.
And its leaders and defenders were busy elsewhere.
While it may or may not be true..
today's Muslim clergy is doing the same..
When your prowess as a Muslim is judged not by your understanding of your religion..and your accomplishments in science to understands god's marvels... and rather by the length of your beard..and how arabic sounding your accent is.. or delusional ideas of a Khilafat based on shoddy foundations..
Then expect to be .. in the most polite of terms possible.. arse kicked by everyone east and west of the suez.
Today's "Muslim" nations have formidable armies as well.. an they did in 67 and in 73.. it was lacklustre leadership..
and a culture of either complete abandon of religion.. or misled mechanical following of the religion.. that led to those defeats.
And worst of all.. not judging a man by his prowess in the field.. rather than his subservience.. as it is today.. that leads to the certain defeat of Armies from Muslim majority nations.

Just bowing down 5 times a day.. like robot... and not reaching out and understanding the world.. and not striving for professional excellence.
Is the cause of not just the decline of the military power.. but overall influence of Muslims in the world

 

[Whiplash]

This may sound bitter to you guys but do you wanna know why most of the muslim countries are western slaves today? Because most of them are money hungry back stabbers. What kind of self respecting arab states allow their territory to be used against their own arab brothers? We see it happening every friggin day. None of your countries are united. You'll are always fighting even for the smallest things. And the arabs lack foresight and planning. Tactics matter much more than weapons today. Israel crushed egypt despite being weaker in every way. Truth is the arab countries could have diplomatically stopped both iraq and libya. But you need balls for that.

 

[angeldust]

What happened? The muslim military power waned and got weak through centuries of indulgence, infighting, and complacence. That's what happened. A refusal for flexible thinking to adapt to modern ideas and technology versus narrow destructive religious ideology and separatism is what happened. Buying the protective vassal-ship of foreign military power for short term comfort and transient non-sustainable material prosperity is what happened. These are some of the things that happened.

 

[ares]

What happened was ..western world was able to retrieve itself from its dark ages through renaissance and industrial revolution and was able to come out of the shadows..once all powerful church and pursue science, rather than religion to establish itself as a military power..whereas most of the "Islamic world" still languishes in its medieval mindset which is retrogressive instead progressive, they think going back to the old ways instead evolving new ones.

 

[AUz]

What happened? The muslim military power waned and got weak through centuries of indulgence, infighting, and complacence. That's what happened. A refusal for flexible thinking to adapt to modern ideas and technology versus narrow destructive religious ideology and separatism is what happened. Buying the protective vassal-ship of foreign military power for short term comfort and transient non-sustainable material prosperity is what happened. These are some of the things that happened.

Can you give some explicit examples for the bold part? Ottomans just got complacent..I don't remember any incident where they rejected the adaption of any new technology merely due to some "religious" reasons? Or I am missing something

 

[AUz]

What happened was ..western world was able to retrieve itself from its dark ages through renaissance and industrial revolution and was able to come out of the shadows..once all powerful church and pursue science, rather than religion to establish itself as a military power..whereas most of the "Islamic world" still languishes in its medieval mindset which is retrogressive instead progressive, they think going back to the old ways instead evolving new ones.

Well,throughout the history when Muslims were dominant global force (until mid 16th/17th century),Islam played much greater role in societies as compared to now.I guess Muslims approach to Islam was different back then.Today,we are 'suffering' from Islam's obsession rather than actually following it..

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

O.K lets analyze...What happened to the Muslim military tradition? Muslim militaries were once the strongest in the world....even Crusaders (Western Militaries) were no match to the Muslim Forces...Even at Antioch (1st Crusade),Yaghi-Siyan almost annihilated the large Crusader Army until one of his own soldier turn out to be a traitor and opened the gate which allowed the crusaders to take the city.Till,mid 16th/17th century,Ottoman Empire was the strongest military power in the world...But then after 1800s etc,it all vanished.

What happened? Muslim World has shown almost NO talents in modern (complex) warfare.Arab wars with Israel were more than disastrous.Lack of modern training and inability to deploy modern weapons were clear from Arab side...Arab artillery once even bombed its own advancing infantry (as they lack basic mathematical skills) ..Pakistan,as compared to Arabs,performed exceptionally well (against India).

Today,we can not see any modern military in Muslim World..The advantage of the WEST is overwhelming.No Muslim military can face any good Western military in pure conventional mode..

So what happened? Where did we went wrong? Is there any hope of comeback (Not necessarily a fight but atleast a credible deterrence against Western Militaries)? Paradox is that we cannot fight/Deter Western Militaries without using Western Military technology ...So what is the practical way forward?

well the answer is simple, I guess.
Lack of Faith.
When Muhammad Bin Qasim invaded India, he once said:
Muslims do not fight for Kings or Commanders. They only for fight for Allah.

And after that you know that how a 17 yr old boy defeated Raja Dahir.