Hypothetical - Ancient Rome vs Han China

[retaxis]

Before firearms were invented, it's almost almost the east beating the west in the history, with just a couple of exceptions.

Not taking into logistics the main advantage the Chinese had over the Romans were:

1. Romans had tens of millions of slaves who are always rebelling, sometimes even to the point of destroying the entire empire. China never had that problem.
2. China had very advanced siege warfare and siege defence. The walls around Chinese cities were a hundred times stronger and taller than any walls surrounding roman cities
3. China had the advantage of being better horse masters and horse rangers using things from Recurve bows to repeating crossbows like the cho ku nu. Rome was often slaughtered by Parthians and Persian catapharacts and horse archers because of their inability to fight effectively on horse back.

 

[beijingwalker]

Huns, Turks were all people from the east, under Chinese empires pressure they were forced to move westwards to find living space, and then they hit the gold.

 

[retaxis]

People can talked about the Battle of Carrhae, Bella punica, Rome-Sassanid war
for days, but how many have ever heard of the century long war between Han and Xiongnu empire?
With it peaked at The battle of Mobei, largest cavalry campaign before Mongol conquest, when Wudi sent 100k pure cavalry, 50k each by both of his best general, crossing the Gobi desert to seeks for Xiongnu proper led by Chanyu himself.

Chinas conquest of the Eastern and Western Turkish Khaganate was probably more impressive in my mind but that was in the Tang dynasty.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Huns, Turks were all people from the east, under Chinese empires pressure they were forced to move westwards to find living space, and then they hit the gold.

Intresting point, when unleashed both absolutely ravaged ME, parts of South Asia and Europe

 

[GWXP]

Claims that Roman Empire's population was 60mln people is a claim by biased Europocentrist historians from Europe.....European estimates of Roman Empire's population range between 30mln and 60mln people with 30mln being closer to reality.

From military point of view Romans were no match even for Persian Empire.....If you analyze history of Roman-Persian wars you will see that Persia was a superior military power

Here is a brief analysis of Roman-Persian wars:

Roman-Parthian War 53BC-------Crassus invades Parthia----Parthian victory (Crassus and his son Publius killed, Parthians raid Syria)

Roman-Parthian war 40bc-38BC------Parthians invade Syria and Palestine and Asia Minor but forced to withdraw------Roman victory (Prince Pacorus killed)

Roman-Parthian war 36bc-20bc------Mark Anthony invades Armenia------Parthian victory (32.000 Romans killed)

Roman–Parthian War of 58–63------Parthians install their man in Armenia----Stalemate (Arsacid will rule Armenia but he will be a nominal Roman client)

Roman-Parthian war 115-117-----Emperor Trajan invades Parthia, takes Armenia and Mesopotamia including capital Ctesiphon, but forced to withdraw due to rebellions in Mesopotamia and Palestine and Parthian attacks, Emperor Hadrian restores status quo---Stalemate

Roman–Parthian War of 161–166---Shah Vologases invades Armenia and Syria defeating their governors and plundering the land--Romans expel Parthians from Syria and invade Mesopotamia taking and looting Ctesiphon--Romans forced to withdraw due to epidemy---Roman victory

Roman-Parthian War 195–197----Emperor Septimus Severus invades Parthia annexes Northern Mesopotamia and sackes Ctesiphon---Roman Victory

Roman-Parthian War 210-217----civil war in Parthia---Emperor Caracalla takes advantage and invades Parthia and plunders Mesopotamia---after Caracallas assasination battle of Nisibis won by Parthians---Parthian victory (Rome withdraws and pays compensation for destruction made by Caracalla)

Roman-Sassanid War 230-244------Shah Ardasher and Shapur invade Syria and Mesopotamia (taking Carrhae, Nisibis, Hatra)-Carrhae and Nisibis retaken by the Romans---Emperor Gordian III killed and Romans defeated at Misiche and pay compensation---Sassanid Victory

Roman-Sassanid War 250-260----Shah Shapur I invades Armenia and Syria (plunderes Antioch) defeats Romans in Battle of Barbalissos and Battle of Edessa---Roman Emperor Valerian captured in Edessa, ---Shapur moves to Anatolia but defeated there and forced to withdraw from Syria and Armenia---Stalemate

Roman-Sassanid War 283-----Sassanids are busy in Afghanistan and have internal problems---Emperor Carus captures Ctesiphon---Roman Victory

Roman-Sassanid War 297-298----Shah Narseh invades Armenia and defeates Romans, but Emperor Galerius defeats Narseh, sackes Ctesiphon and captures royal harem---Roman Victory

Roman-Sassanid War 335-363---Shah Shapur invades and takes cities in Syria, but Romans retake them---Emperor Julian killed in the Battle of Samarra--elected Emperor Jovian makes major concessions in return for peace and safe passage----Sassanid Victory

Roman–Sasanian War of 421–422---Rome declares war in response to persecution of Christians----Stalemate

Roman–Sasanian War of 440 ---Rome pays tribute to Persia-----Sassanid Victory

TOTAL RESULT:

15 Wars between 53BC-440AD---493 years of war---1 war every 33 years on average

6 Persian victories and 5 Roman victories and 4 Stalemates

Persia kills Triumvirate member Crassus and his son Publius and captures Roman Standards, kills Roman Emperor Julian (and possibly Gordian III) and captures and humiliates Emperor Valerian

Rome kills Prince Pacorus (son of Shah Orodes II), captures Narseh's royal harem and captures Ctesiphon 5 times (city on the border)

Rome is aggressive--- 6 times

Persia is aggressive---6 times

+3 wars because of provocations and actions of the other side

Rome raids Mesopotamia--- 5 times

Persia raids Syria/Asia Minor/Palestine---5 times


Byzantine-Sassanid War 502-506----Shah Kavad I demands money, Emperor Anastacius says no---Kavad invades and takes cities but pushed back----Peace treaty with Persians not holding any territory and Byzantines paying tribute-----Sassanid Victory

Byzantine-Sassanid War 526-532----Iberia (in Georgia) defected to Byzantine because Persians wanted to convert them to Zoroastrianism----no territorial changes, Emperor Justinian's Byzantine pays tribute to Shah Khosrau I-----Sassanid Victory

Byzantine-Sassanid War 541–562-----Emperor Justinian conquers territory of the former Western Empire and Shah Khosrau I attacks Byzantine---Khosrau plunders Syria and deports Antioch population to Persia and invades Lazica---multiple battles and Persian victories--Rome pays annual tribute----Sassanid victory

Byzantine–Sassanid War 572–591-----Armenia and Iberia had pro-Byzantine rebellions against Persia which Rome supported---Shah Khosrau invades Syria and Anatolia but forced to withdraw to Mesopotamia---Romans invade Mesopotamia---battles are inconclusive---Khosrau dies and Hormizd continues war---Bahram Chobin rebells against Hormizd---Hormizd dismissed and Khosrau II put in power----Khosrau asks Romans for help and after defeating Bahram becomes shah and gives land to Romans-----Roman Victory

Byzantine–Sasanian War of 602–628-----Shah Khosrau II attacks and occupies Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Anatolia and lays siege to Constantinople----Roman empire nearly collapsed---counterattack by Emperor Heraclius restores status quo--True Cross returned--Stalemate

TOTAL RESULT:

20 wars between 53BC-628AD-----681 years of war---1 war every 34 years on average

9 Persian victories and 6 Roman victories and 5 Stalemates

Persia kills Triumvirate member Crassus and his son Publius and captures Roman Standards, kills Roman Emperor Julian (and possibly Gordian III), Captures and humiliates Emperor Valerian and captures the True Cross

Rome kills Prince Pacorus (son of Shah Orodes II), captures Narseh's royal harem and captures Ctesiphon 5 times (city on the border)

Rome is aggressive--- 6 times

Persia is aggressive---9 times

+5 wars because of provocations and actions of other side

Rome raids Mesopotamia--- 7 times

Persia raids Syria/Asia Minor/Palestine---8 times

 

[Beast]

Romans lived in a rougher neighborhood. China did not have to worry for the most part -- Siberia in the North, deserts of Central Asia, Himalayas in the South-Central and Pacific Ocean in the East.
Romans benefited a lot from the innovations of ancient Greece, Egypt and Middle Easterners

Romans had a greater impact in the sense that Modern Europe is built on the foundations of Roman Empire. China's influence was limited to Korea, Japan and maybe Vietnam.


for good reason I may add

Lol.. the Han need to face the xiongnu which is the predessesor of the mongol horde which almost conquer the whole continent. They are hard more difficult for deal with combine of the Germanic, Persian , Egypt and middle eastern.

 

[applesauce]

Not taking into logistics the main advantage the Chinese had over the Romans were:

1. Romans had tens of millions of slaves who are always rebelling, sometimes even to the point of destroying the entire empire. China never had that problem.
2. China had very advanced siege warfare and siege defence. The walls around Chinese cities were a hundred times stronger and taller than any walls surrounding roman cities
3. China had the advantage of being better horse masters and horse rangers using things from Recurve bows to repeating crossbows like the cho ku nu. Rome was often slaughtered by Parthians and Persian catapharacts and horse archers because of their inability to fight effectively on horse back.

china also had a lot of peasant rebellions all the time. in good times they were little more than minor banditry, in bad times they turned into massive roving armies. not really much different than what the romans were dealing with.

i also would not call roman siege capabilities any weaker than china's. though it is true that china had way more walls and many bigger walls. these walls continued to protect chinese cities well into ww2 when the japanese found difficulty bringing large numbers of modern artillery inland and ended up sieging those inland Chinese cities the old fashion way, creating a breach and charge into it.

the cavalry advantage and ranged advantage was huge on the chinese side though. funny enough china is usually at a cavalry disadvantage since it normally fight nomads, but against rome, it had a massive comparative advantage here. on the range side, roman was simply out matched by far, having crossbows meant china could field 100x times missile unit numbers with each something like 80% as effective as a professional missile unit.

 

[retaxis]

china also had a lot of peasant rebellions all the time. in good times they were little more than minor banditry, in bad times they turned into massive roving armies. not really much different than what the romans were dealing with.

i also would not call roman siege capabilities any weaker than china's. though it is true that china had way more walls and many bigger walls. these walls continued to protect chinese cities well into ww2 when the japanese found difficulty bringing large numbers of modern artillery inland and ended up sieging those inland Chinese cities the old fashion way, creating a breach and charge into it.

the cavalry advantage and ranged advantage was huge on the chinese side though. funny enough china is usually at a cavalry disadvantage since it normally fight nomads, but against rome, it had a massive comparative advantage here. on the range side, roman was simply out matched by far, having crossbows meant china could field 100x times missile unit numbers with each something like 80% as effective as a professional missile unit.

Yes I agree with pretty much all of it, peasant rebellions i think is common in every country that has a lot of natural disasters like China but probably more so in China because of the larger population and more floods/earthquakes etc

Anyway regarding the walls part it reminds me of the story I read about the Mongols. The Mongols had to besiege collosal walls of Chinese for centuries and were masters of it. When they beat the Northern Chinese and took in Chinese siege experts they went to Russia to conquer the Russians. The Russians had little wooden walls and the Mongols and Chinese siege engineers couldn't stop laughing when they saw it.

 

[IblinI]

Intresting point, when unleashed both absolutely ravaged ME, parts of South Asia and Europe

We should not jump to a conclusion of who was superior at the time, because both empire has different geography, background, enemies, Roman put more focus on their infantry and Han on Calvary because our threat mainly came from the steppe, but we do have something in common at some point of the history, which is all three empire (including Persian) faces Xiongnu and their akin/branches.

Han faces Xiongnu proper, Rome meets Hun, Sassanid encounter Hephthalite, we should have some Iranian members here talking more about it.

 

[retaxis]

We should not jump to a conclusion of who was superior at the time, because both empire has different geography, background, enemies, Roman put more focus on their infantry and Han on Calvary because our threat mainly came from the steppe, but we do have something in common at some point of the history, which is all three empire (including Persian) faces Xiongnu and their akin/branches.

Han faces Xiongnu proper, Rome meets Hun, Sassanid encounter Hephthalite, we should have some Iranian members here talking more about it.

Turko-Mongols were hard to defeat because they would always run away and had endless land area to run to (Siberia for example in China's case). To defeat the mongols/xiongnu China had to chase them all the way to the frigid lake Baikal deep into siberia to crush them once and for all.

 

[Muhammed45]

Claims that Roman Empire's population was 60mln people is a claim by biased Europocentrist historians from Europe.....European estimates of Roman Empire's population range between 30mln and 60mln people with 30mln being closer to reality.

From military point of view Romans were no match even for Persian Empire.....If you analyze history of Roman-Persian wars you will see that Persia was a superior military power

Here is a brief analysis of Roman-Persian wars:

Roman-Parthian War 53BC-------Crassus invades Parthia----Parthian victory (Crassus and his son Publius killed, Parthians raid Syria)

Roman-Parthian war 40bc-38BC------Parthians invade Syria and Palestine and Asia Minor but forced to withdraw------Roman victory (Prince Pacorus killed)

Roman-Parthian war 36bc-20bc------Mark Anthony invades Armenia------Parthian victory (32.000 Romans killed)

Roman–Parthian War of 58–63------Parthians install their man in Armenia----Stalemate (Arsacid will rule Armenia but he will be a nominal Roman client)

Roman-Parthian war 115-117-----Trajan invades Parthia, takes Armenia and Mesopotamia including capital Ctesiphon, but forced to withdraw due to rebellions in Mesopotamia and Palestine and Parthian attacks, Hadrian restores status quo---Stalemate

Roman–Parthian War of 161–166---Vologases invades Armenia and Syria defeating their governors and plundering the land--Romans expel Parthians from Syria and invade Mesopotamia taking and looting Ctesiphon--Romans forced to withdraw due to epidemy---Roman victory

Roman-Parthian War 195–197----Septimus Severus invades Parthia annexes Northern Mesopotamia and sackes Ctesiphon---Roman Victory

Roman-Parthian War 210-217----civil war in Parthia---Caracalla takes advantage and invades Parthia and plunders Mesopotamia---after Caracallas assasination battle of Nisibis won by Parthians---Parthian victory (Rome withdraws and pays compensation for destruction made by Caracalla)

Roman-Sassanid War 230-244------Ardasher and Shapur invade Syria and Mesopotamia (taking Carrhae, Nisibis, Hatra)-Carrhae and Nisibis retaken by the Romans---Emperor Gordian III killed and Romans defeated at Misiche and pay compensation---Sassanid Victory

Roman-Sassanid War 250-260----Shapur I invades Armenia and Syria (plunderes Antioch) defeats Romans in Battle of Barbalissos and Battle of Edessa---Roman Emperor Valerian captured in Edessa, ---Shapur moves to Anatolia but defeated there and forced to withdraw from Syria and Armenia---Stalemate

Roman-Sassanid War 283-----Sassanids are busy in Afghanistan and have internal problems---Carus captures Ctesiphon---Roman Victory

Roman-Sassanid War 297-298----Narseh invaded Armenia and defeates Romans, but Galerius defeats Narseh, sackes Ctesiphon and captures royal harem---Roman Victory

Roman-Sassanid War 335-363---Shapur invades and takes cities in Syria, but Romans retake them---Emperor Julian killed in the Battle of Samarra--elected Emperor Jovian makes major concessions in return for peace and safe passage----Sassanid Victory

Roman–Sasanian War of 421–422---Rome declares war in response to persecution of Christians----Stalemate

Roman–Sasanian War of 440 ---Rome pays tribute to Persia-----Sassanid Victory

TOTAL RESULT:

15 Wars between 53BC-440AD---493 years of war---1 war every 33 years on average

6 Persian victories vs 5 Roman victories and 4 Stalemates

Persia kills Triumvirate member Crassus and his son Publius and captures Roman Standards, kills Roman Emperor Julian (and possibly Gordian III) and captures and humiliates Emperor Valerian

Rome kills Prince Pacorus (son of Shah Orodes II), captures Narseh's royal harem and captures Ctesiphon 5 times (city on the border)

Rome is aggressive 6 times

Persia is aggressive---6 times

+3 wars because of provocations and actions of the other side

Rome raids Mesopotamia 5 times

Persia raids Syria/Asia Minor/Palestine---5 times


Byzantine-Sassanid War 502-506----Kavad I demands money, Anastacius says no---Kavad invades and takes cities but pushed back----Peace treaty with Persians not holding any territory and Byzantines paying tribute-----Sassanid Victory

Byzantine-Sassanid War 526-532----Iberia (in Georgia) defected to Byzantine because Persians wanted to convert them to Zoroastrianism----no territorial changes, Justinianian Byzantine pays a tribute to Khosrau I-----Sassanid Victory

Byzantine-Sassanid War 541–562-----Justinian conquers territory of the former Western Empire and Khosrau I attacks---Khosrau plunders Syria and deports Antioch population to Persia and invades Lazica---multiple battles and Persian victories--Rome pays annual tribute----Sassanid victory

Byzantine–Sassanid War 572–591-----Armenia and Iberia had pro-Byzantine rebellions against Persia which Rome supported---Khosrau invades Syria and Anatolia but forced to withdraw to Mesopotamia---Romans invade Mesopotamia---battles are inconclusive---Khosrau dies and Hormizd continues war---Bahram Chobin rebells against Hormizd---Hormizd dismissed and Khosrau II put in power----Khosrau asks Romans for help and after defeating Bahram becomes shah and gives land to Romans-----Roman Victory

Byzantine–Sasanian War of 602–628-----Khosrau II attacks and occupies Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Anatolia and lay siege to Constantinople----Roman empire nearly collapsed---counterattack by Heraclius restores status quo--True Cross returned--Stalemate

TOTAL RESULT:

20 wars between 53BC-628AD-----681 years of war---1 war every 34 years on average

9 Persian victories vs 6 Roman victories and 5 Stalemates

Persia kills Triumvirate member Crassus and his son Publius and captures Roman Standards, kills Roman Emperor Julian (and possibly Gordian III), Captures and humiliates Emperor Valerian and captures the True Cross

Rome kills Prince Pacorus (son of Shah Orodes II), captures Narseh's royal harem and captures Ctesiphon 5 times (city on the border)

Rome is aggressive 6 times

Persia is aggressive---9 times

+5 wars because of provocations and actions of other side

Rome raids Mesopotamia 7 times

Persia raids Syria/Asia Minor/Palestine---8 times

Again the fight is over Palestine and Syria.

Wondering, why history repeats itself? Wanted to blame Arabs for current problems but hey i see the day we wouldn't need to blame anyone, we will surely reclaim those lands in the name of prophet Muhammad pbuh and then expel the invading forces. The fate of all of us lies in that region. Mediterraneans

 

[MH.Yang]

Rome without a doubt.

There is no doubt that the Han Dynasty was far stronger than the Roman Empire.

After being defeated by the Han Dynasty emperor, the Huns split into East Hun and West Hun.

The Eastern Huns became slaves of the Han Dynasty. The Western Huns fled to the West, and they destroyed the Roman Empire.

Huns - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Attila - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Rome without a doubt.

And after the fall of Rome, it split into the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire.

In 630 ad, the emperor of the Tang Dynasty defeated the Turks.

The Turks were divided into two parts by the Han people. Illig Qaghan, the king of Eastern Turks, surrendered to the emperor of the Tang Dynasty. They became slaves of the Han people.

In 657, the king of Western Turks also surrendered to the emperor of the Tang Dynasty.

The remnants of the Western Turkic army (Oghuz tribe) fled to the East Bank of the Caspian Sea, and they established the Oghuz Yabgu State.

In 1037, they established the Seljuk empire.

In 1071, the Seljuk Empire destroyed the Byzantine Empire, that is, the Eastern Roman Empire.


This means that the Roman Empire was destroyed twice by the slave nation under China.

 

[Beast]

Turko-Mongols were hard to defeat because they would always run away and had endless land area to run to (Siberia for example in China's case). To defeat the mongols/xiongnu China had to chase them all the way to the frigid lake Baikal deep into siberia to crush them once and for all.

Not only that, xiongnu are good horseman and great archery.

 

[nahtanbob]

I know you are biased and trolling but I will educate the rest of the people. China started off as a small nation as well and had to fight and conquer other nations eventually reaching and subdueing the Vietnamese, Koreans and even Central Asians and Proto-Mongols and Turks.

You snidely forgot to mention the hundreds of nomadic tribes that China fought for against for a Millenia from the Jurchens, Mongols, Khitans, Turks, Xiong nu etc. All of those are stronger than any force the Romans ever encountered.

Simple geography - who is crossing Siberia, Central Asia deserts, Pacific Ocean or Himalayas ?

Lol.. the Han need to face the xiongnu which is the predessesor of the mongol horde which almost conquer the whole continent. They are hard more difficult for deal with combine of the Germanic, Persian , Egypt and middle eastern.

IMO China's biggest threat was the internal dissensions. I forgot some nutcase who ordered all books burnt.

 

[beijingwalker]

Simple geography - who is crossing Siberia, Central Asia deserts, Pacific Ocean or Himalayas ?

Huns, Turks, Mongols...

And you know why they had to go through the hardship to cross deserts and mountain to move westwards instead of much closer and wealthy east?