Hypothetical - Ancient Rome vs Han China

[IblinI]

Simple geography - who is crossing Siberia, Central Asia deserts, Pacific Ocean or Himalayas ?

For thousand of years, we have been coexist with the nomads living in the biggest steppe on this world, it shadows all other steppe tribes, you should be fully aware of how destructive these nomads from the east can be to settlers empire, Hun to Rome, Hephtalites to Sassanid Persian, and those were just a distant little branch from the main Xiongnu tribe, we have been dealing with Xiongnu, Xianbei, Turk, Rouran, Khitay, Jurchen, and ofc the Mongol, the lists goes on forever, thus saying our enemies are not worthy comparing with Rome is just....

 

[Beast]

IMO China's biggest threat was the internal dissensions. I forgot some nutcase who ordered all books burnt.

You are actually correct about the Qin. They are very tough that they even subdue the Xiongnu. It was when China fall into chaos after the collapse of Qin that the Xiongnu breakfree from Qin and starting to grow stronger.

Qin burn books is to centralize Chinese language and culture. If not, today, there maybe 4-5 different types of Chinese character just like India which complicate India grow and sow differences between each ethnic groups.

For thousand of years, we have been coexist with the nomads living in the biggest steppe on this world, it shadows all other steppe tribes, you should be fully aware of how destructive these nomads from the east can be to settlers empire, Hun to Rome, Hephtalites to Sassanid Persian, and those were just a distant little branch from the main Xiongnu tribe, we have been dealing with Xiongnu, Xianbei, Turk, Rouran, Khitay, Jurchen, the lists goes on forever, thus saying our enemies are not worthy comparing with Rome is just....

Precisely, a small HUN destroyed the western Roman empire. Which China beat the crapped out of them by Han Wudi.

 

[retaxis]

I am surprised no Roman fanboy has come and gushed about how great the Roman infantry and tortoise formation tactics are lol. Normally they would come out and talk about how professional roman infantry are superior to everyone that existed back then.

Except that tight infantry formations are easily destroyed by heavy cavalry or horse archers or picked apart by smoke or flame bombs. Even two handed halberds will rip the shields right off the arms of roman soldiers as the halberds had hooks to deal with heavy horseman and heavy infantry alike. China just had too many tricks up its sleeves to deal with anything the Roman infantry could throw at them.

 

[retaxis]

Huns, Turks, Mongols...

And you know why they had to go through the hardship to cross deserts and mountain to move westwards instead of much closer and wealthy east?

This guy nathan acting like his ignorance and lack of knowledge is our duty to educate him lol.

 

[LeGenD]

There is no doubt that the Han Dynasty was far stronger than the Roman Empire.

After being defeated by the Han Dynasty emperor, the Huns split into East Hun and West Hun.

The Eastern Huns became slaves of the Han Dynasty. The Western Huns fled to the West, and they destroyed the Roman Empire.

Huns - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Attila - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

View attachment 899389



And after the fall of Rome, it split into the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire.

In 630 ad, the emperor of the Tang Dynasty defeated the Turks.

The Turks were divided into two parts by the Han people. Illig Qaghan, the king of Eastern Turks, surrendered to the emperor of the Tang Dynasty. They became slaves of the Han people.

In 657, the king of Western Turks also surrendered to the emperor of the Tang Dynasty.

The remnants of the Western Turkic army (Oghuz tribe) fled to the East Bank of the Caspian Sea, and they established the Oghuz Yabgu State.

In 1037, they established the Seljuk empire.

In 1071, the Seljuk Empire destroyed the Byzantine Empire, that is, the Eastern Roman Empire.


This means that the Roman Empire was destroyed twice by the slave nation under China.

The original Roman Empire became a superpower for a period of but its political situation was corrupt and volatile. Internal power struggles and conflicts resulted in demise of capable leaders and loss of valuable manpower from time to time. Others were alienated in the process. This trend slowly but surely took a toll on the Empire and its ability to cope with external threats.

Atila was up against a much weakened Roman Empire in his time that was split between the Western Half and the Eastern Half (also identified as the Byzantine Empire). As if this split wasn't bad enough, Romans were fighting each other in the Western Half as well (see the Battle of Rimini in 432 AD).

Roman general Flavius Aetius had fought and won many battles for Rome and he was the only man who could stop Atila as he showed in the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains to save Gaul. But how he was rewarded for his services and accomplishments in the end? Assassination. Yup.

The Western Half collapsed in 476 AD.

 

[etylo]

There is no doubt that the Han Dynasty was far stronger than the Roman Empire.

After being defeated by the Han Dynasty emperor, the Huns split into East Hun and West Hun.

The Eastern Huns became slaves of the Han Dynasty. The Western Huns fled to the West, and they destroyed the Roman Empire.

Huns - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Attila - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

View attachment 899389



And after the fall of Rome, it split into the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire.

In 630 ad, the emperor of the Tang Dynasty defeated the Turks.

The Turks were divided into two parts by the Han people. Illig Qaghan, the king of Eastern Turks, surrendered to the emperor of the Tang Dynasty. They became slaves of the Han people.

In 657, the king of Western Turks also surrendered to the emperor of the Tang Dynasty.

The remnants of the Western Turkic army (Oghuz tribe) fled to the East Bank of the Caspian Sea, and they established the Oghuz Yabgu State.

In 1037, they established the Seljuk empire.

In 1071, the Seljuk Empire destroyed the Byzantine Empire, that is, the Eastern Roman Empire.


This means that the Roman Empire was destroyed twice by the slave nation under China.

I dont know exactly if the Huns and Turks actually became the slaves of Han and Tang empires, they just surrendered to China and being ruled by the Chinese empires in the end.

 

[beijingwalker]

In the history waves after waves normadic peoples were being pushed westwards by the Chinese empires

 

[MH.Yang]

You are actually correct about the Qin. They are very tough that they even subdue the Xiongnu. It was when China fall into chaos after the collapse of Qin that the Xiongnu breakfree from Qin and starting to grow stronger.

Qin burn books is to centralize Chinese language and culture. If not, today, there maybe 4-5 different types of Chinese character just like India which complicate India grow and sow differences between each ethnic groups.


Precisely, a small HUN destroyed the western Roman empire. Which China beat the crapped out of them by Han Wudi.

Before the Qin Dynasty unified China, the Huns were in a state of division.

At that time, the Huns were subject to Qin, Zhao, and Yan. After the Qin Dynasty unified China, the First Emperor of Qin connected the Great Wall of the three countries, which forced the Huns to unify into one country under the leadership of the Modu.

Grassland ethnic groups need tea, salt, iron and other commodities from Han countries. The lack of tea will lead to the death of grassland people due to lack of vitamins, and the lack of salt and iron will also lead to the decline of grassland people. Therefore, Han nationality countries often use the Great Wall blockade and trade interruption to attack and coerce grassland ethnic groups.

Before Qin Shihuang unified China, the Huns can chose trading partners from three countries. After the Qin Dynasty unified China, if they did not immediately unite into one country, they would surely perish in the grasslands.

 

[Mobius 1]

r

Its interesting because both were at their peak power at roughly the same few hundred years. So who would have won a war if the country were closer together and could fight against one another? Of course we will never know because Rome hasn't existed in a long time but we can still imagine.

1. Land area was about equal at their height around 2000 years ago.
2. Population was about equal at 65million as well. However Rome had tens of millions of slaves who often rebelled e.g. spartacus rebellions so that has to be taken into consideration too.
3. Both were military mights of their time and conquered their neighbours. China conquered the far east and the mongol-xiongnu people as well as subdued the vietnam etc. Rome conquered much of Europe.
4. Both were very good at siege warfare and had advanced weapons for their time
5. China relied more on horse archers/cavalary especially fighting against the proto-turk/xiongnu/mongols etc while rome was more infantry.
6. Both had the strongest militaries of their era in their side of the world
7. Economy was equal as well from what I have read.
8. Both had a history of civil wars in terms of civilisations so they fought against their own people in walled cities as well adding adaptation to combat experience

So who do you think would have had the upper hand?

Romans easily. their tactics and equipment were god tier after the Marius reforms.

 

[MH.Yang]

The original Roman Empire became a superpower for a period of but its political situation was corrupt and volatile. Internal power struggles and conflicts resulted in demise of capable leaders and loss of valuable manpower from time to time. Others were alienated in the process. This trend slowly but surely took a toll on the Empire and its ability to cope with external threats.



Atila was up against a much weakened Roman Empire in his time that was split between the Western Half and the Eastern Half (also identified as the Byzantine Empire). As if this split wasn't bad enough, Romans were fighting each other in the Western Half as well (see the Battle of Rimini in 432 AD).



Roman general Flavius Aetius had fought and won many battles for Rome and he was the only man who could stop Atila as he showed in the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains to save Gaul. But how he was rewarded for his services and accomplishments in the end? Assassination. Yup.



The Western Half collapsed in 476 AD.

The fate of the Han Dynasty was similar to that of Rome. It also died in the increasingly serious corruption and internal power struggle. In fact, almost every Chinese dynasty perished because of internal problems.

In the late Han Dynasty, power was controlled by the political family. The factions of court eunuchs and court ministers engaged in vicious political struggle.

Natural disasters and long-term wars also led to serious economic problems in the Han Dynasty.

The large-scale land annexation made the overall economic structure of the Han Dynasty out of order. The living conditions of the lower class citizens deteriorated, which eventually led to a large-scale riot.

The Han Dynasty was also full of non Han people because of the conquest of other nationalities for hundreds of years. For example, Xiongnu people, Qiang people, Wuhuan people, etc. The ethnic conflict also led many people to question or even deny the Confucian values. This has also led to a decline in national cohesion.

The social security of the Han Dynasty also declined significantly, because many social problems led to the increase of violence and chaos.

All these reasons eventually led to the split of the Han Dynasty, and ultimately perished in the civil war.

But the Han Dynasty was a little different from the Roman Empire. The Han Dynasty did not lose any war with other nations until its demise. The three countries divided by the Han Dynasty, Wei, Shu and Wu, all won all the victories in the war with other nations.

 

[DabbuSardar]

Like indian slaves to greeks, persians, arabs, mongols and british.

Like the opium slaves,? You think it hasn't been shaken off yet too?

 

[etylo]

Like the opium slaves,? You think it hasn't been shaken off yet too?

At least, its much better than being a slave state of the British in which tens of millions of you Indian slaves were slaughtered. The indian state existed only to be some others slave state for thousands of years, thats a fact.

Genocide of Millions of Indians During the British-Raj. 31 Famines under British Colonial Rule - Global Research

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British Starved and Killed 60 Million+ Indians

(Ramtanu Maitra) The chronic want of food and water, the lack of sanitation and medical help, the neglect of means of communication, the poverty of educational provision, the all-pervading spirit of depression that I have myself seen to prevail in our villages after over a hundred years of...

stillnessinthestorm.com

 

[MH.Yang]

To be fair, the romans were far past their peak by then and were divided between Eastern Roman Empire and Western Roman Empire and in this case we are focusing more on the earlier Roman empire when it was still united and powerful. Obviously the Chinese would run railroad thru the East or West Roman Empire without a second thought so its not really up for discussion in this instance.

Yes. The Roman Empire defeated by the Huns was not the Roman Empire at its peak. But the Han Dynasty, which defeated the Huns, was also not the Han Dynasty at its peak.

The Han Dynasty defeated the Huns in 129 BC. The peak period of the Han Dynasty was 157 years, and the difference between the two time points was nearly 300 years.

At the peak of the Han Dynasty, the population reached 60 million(The Chinese imperial government has always had a registered residence system for population census. The 60 million people in the Han Dynasty are 60 million people with real written records. It is not the so-called "estimated 30 to 60 million people" of the Roman Empire), and the land area was also the largest.

 

[retaxis]

Yes. The Roman Empire defeated by the Huns was not the Roman Empire at its peak. But the Han Dynasty, which defeated the Huns, was also not the Han Dynasty at its peak.

The Han Dynasty defeated the Huns in 129 BC. The peak period of the Han Dynasty was 157 years, and the difference between the two time points was nearly 300 years.

At the peak of the Han Dynasty, the population reached 60 million(The Chinese imperial government has always had a registered residence system for population census. The 60 million people in the Han Dynasty are 60 million people with real written records. It is not the so-called "estimated 30 to 60 million people" of the Roman Empire), and the land area was also the largest.

Romans however did have strong logistics and made good roads. However in warfare they are slow to adapt to new enemies and circumstances. The recurve bow, heavy horse cavalry and the repeating crossbow would have devastated Roman ranks and once Rome suffers a major defeat, slave rebellions begin popping up all over the place.

At least, its much better than being a slave state of the British in which tens of millions of you Indian slaves were slaughtered. The indian state existed only to be some others slave state for thousands of years, thats a fact.

Genocide of Millions of Indians During the British-Raj. 31 Famines under British Colonial Rule - Global Research

All Global Research articles can be read in 51 languages by activating the “Translate Website” drop down menu on the top banner of our home page (Desktop version). To receive Global Research’s Daily Newsletter (selected articles), click here. Follow us on Instagram and Twitter and subscribe to...

www.globalresearch.ca

British Starved and Killed 60 Million+ Indians

(Ramtanu Maitra) The chronic want of food and water, the lack of sanitation and medical help, the neglect of means of communication, the poverty of educational provision, the all-pervading spirit of depression that I have myself seen to prevail in our villages after over a hundred years of...

stillnessinthestorm.com

Haha don't bother with Indians. They are so poor and live in filth and have been dominated by all their neighbours. Even the Muslims ruled them for a thousand years. They can't fight, can't win wars, have no honor so they resort to trolling on the internet. They talk a lot but never back it up like real men and surrender to whoever is at the door.

 

[大汉奸柳传志]

the descendants of Rome's enemies namely the Germanic,Celtic and Slavic barbarians are still thriving today while the Huns are long gone, guess ancient China was more ruthless towards its enemies